LMF,

I am so very sorry that things didn't go better w/ the ltr. Your H sounds a lot like mine, soooo selfish, my H mocked me for crying at our 1 & only MC session too, so I promised myself I would never cry in front of him again.

I just don't understand how he can be so cold to you & the feelings of your children.

I am afraid that I can offer no advice to you as my own situation seems way to close to yours, I know the pain I went thru over H's involvement w/ OW during her pg., I hate to see any other woman go thru that especially when they (H's) claim to love & still want to be w/ BS.

What are you going to do? It seems as if he is not willing to consider your feelings on this issue at all. I feel so bad for you. I will be praying that the fog soon lifts.

Hi LuvMyFamily,

The other woman in our life is due in August I think. Just guessing though because he has not volunteered much information. Most of what I find out I find out on my own. He told me she is out of town but I think she is in town. Just from his cell phone calls. I seen the bill. Not many out of town calls. The one that I did not recognize I called, got a answering machine. The voice did not sound white. She was white. The number was not in the town where he said she was, another discrepancy. I plan to see if I can track her down before I confront him so I will know the difference between the truth and his lies and why I cannot trust him. Then I will confront him also. I think he is trying not to rock the boat because I am too good to him.

Genia and BG, big, huge hug to you two. I feel so bad that your H's are like mine. I wish you so much luck and strength. I gave up on luck for me and now I pray for strength.

BG- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you going to do? It seems as if he is not willing to consider your feelings on this issue at all. I feel so bad for you. I will be praying that the fog soon lifts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, he won't consider my feelings so I have too. I am going to stop the hurt and pain that he has brought to my life and will not take responsibilty for. I am going to leave him. However, I am not going to look back. This is where I need the strength as I always take him back when he gives me his idel promises.

A friend said that I could take him back but that this time I need to have my check list of needs in hand and see that he does them before I even consider it. A very good point because I have asked for some of what I wanted but I did not make him deliver first, before taking him back. I let him in too easily.

I am going to talk to my priest. Not sure what that will get me but I feel I need to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when they (H's) claim to love & still want to be w/ BS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H says he loves me and wants his life with me and the kids, not her but I don't think his actions show it. He says he does not want two families but I think everything he lays out shows that he does.

August1972 made a good point. However, with my H it's so much more than just the delivery. It's the visitation, and total disregard for my feelings. He is jst pushing me aside through all of this and is expecting me to accept it.

Honestly, I am tired of hearing myself think. I am tired of talking, talking, talking and him not listening. I am tired of the ridicule. I am fed up that everyone sees it my way but him. I have had enough.

Unless lightning strikes him, it's over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Honestly, I am tired of hearing myself think. I am tired of talking, talking, talking and him not listening. I am tired of the ridicule. I am fed up that everyone sees it my way but him. I have had enough.

Unless lightning strikes him, it's over.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know exactly how you feel, can't tell you how many times I have said unless God performs a miracle I am done. But here I am.

At this point I would say to you, if you can't do a Plan A w/ him in the house, then do Plan B, whatever you do, take your time, breath, PRAY PRAY PRAY & don't make any decision that important while you are angry. You may regret it later. Just don't rush into anything, believe me I know the feeling of just wanting it to be over, wanting relief from the pain, & frustation & all that goes along w/ that.

Keep praying.

Hugs to you both too.

We cry and our husbands laugh. They will not be laughing so hard when we really do leave. They will miss all the love and care we give that I am sure the other woman will not give them. Then it will be too late. Why do they have to be such cake eaters? The one we entrusted our hearts too.
Brava to LuvMyFamily! Be Strong! I will be in your shoes soon. I hope not. But I probably will.

LMF~

I'm so sorry--I don't know what to say as my H is just about as bad--threatening to tell his parents he is done yet he never seems to tell them and I can't trust that he has when he says he has--so the only way I know is to hear from his mom--we are good friends--but right now he is with them so don't really get to hear from her and I hope she isn't being nice just because she doesn't want me mad at them--her and I have had several talks about that and she swears she isn't and I believe that right now because we use to hate each other until they relized what I did and how he was turd some and ever since we got back to together in 01/2000 we have been friends.

Enough on me but just wanted to say that my heart goes out to you ((((((((Hugs))))))))and I said an extra prayer last night for everyone--just hope it helps--sometimes it is hard to keep faith but I guess what KT wrote should be inspiration that their is hope--make sure you read it on the newbie thread--she posted it last night.

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: albany ]</small>

I agree with you 100% that, if the child is going to be a part of your life, then you are the stepmother and you and your husband should speak with an equal voice, minimizing contact with the OW and being focused on what the child needs—not the OW.

My earlier post was merely an effort to show that your H’s desires MAY be based on fatherly feelings as well.

Although I only have a very small window into your world, it appears that your H has not emotionally severed himself from the OW and may be unwilling to do so.

The issue is not whether he will have sex with her on the delivery room floor, but whether he will continue to be emotionally entangled with the OW. This is not like a surrogate mother, but a woman he cheated on you with. Emotional attachments are important and, if he is committed to you then they must be destroyed.

It is very reasonable for you to request that he not attending the birth (although acknowledging that he is giving something up—but they all have to give something up once they have proven to be untrustworthy) and that any contact with the child be joint contact with minimum contact with the OW. However, all this may be moot if he is unwilling to acknowledge what he has done and unwilling to severe his emotional ties with the OW.

August,

That you for your response and I totally understand where your prior post was coming from. I truly appreciate it because it opened my eyes as to other reasons my H wanted to be there. He kind of eluded to that but you put it in a better perspective and made it easier for me to see.

I just wanted to give you a little more background on my world so that you could weigh "his fatherly desire" with the other things he has done/said and to see what your take would be.

I think you understand what I am up against now. And I agree with your comment that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it appears that your H has not emotionally severed himself from the OW and may be unwilling to do so </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know the issue is </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> not whether he will have sex with her on the delivery room floor, but whether he will continue to be emotionally entangled with the OW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was just my H's rude comment. It also goes to show you that he has no clue as to what really matters to me and why it hurts so badly.

He is always saying that the reason I want or don't want a certain thing is to satisfy this vendetta and compitition I have with OW, which is not true. It's because I want to be his wife and partner. Harley said it's my H that puts me in comp. with OW because of the situations he puts me in. I have to admit when Steve said that, I felt like another piece of the puzzle was found. I felt a click. Know what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Emotional attachments are important and, if he is committed to you then they must be destroyed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agee. He thinks because he tells me that he is not emotionally attached to her and loves and wants to be with me, that should be enough. Sorry but it's just not. He has said that a million times in the past, only to leave me and be with her. Heck, he moved home last June or July, we hit rocky roads at the end of August, he moved out in Sept and she got preg. a week later. So, why should I believe him. He needs to show me. He does not want to work for my trust, he wants me to give it to him. He does not understand that actions speak louder than words.

August, condisering leaving your response laying around the house for him to read. However, I don't think he can tell it's coming from a man's persepective.

LMF- I may be waaaaayy off base here, but I wonder how your husband would react to this. What if you tell him that you understand him wanting to be a part of the child's delivery because it is a pretty cool thing in itself AND that since you also want to be involved in this child's life that you want to be there too. Whoa! He'll probably hedge on that a lot. But if you think about it, it is the same reasoning he is giving you. It might make everyone uncomfortable, but if you continued to tell them that you want to be there (not because of emotional bonding) because it is your (step) child, just like a surrogate situation then maybe it would fly. We MBers would know that your purpose is not totally because of that, but we wouldn't tell. And if there is involvement later, it might actually help you to bond with the child. Don't be offended. It's just a (off-the-wall) thought!

Hi LuvMyFamily,

I would like to hear your comments did your husband ever change his mind? Good Suggestion. I started a thread where I am sharing a letter I wrote my husband after an argument concerning his honesty in which he threatens to leave me, go to other woman put car he planned to give to his son in her and keep car I bought him for himself. He also told me he would take the rims off my car. How selfish is that after I supported him for three years. I am taking my car to get my rims insured. I need to take pictures in my house in case he decides to up and leave and take myself. I told him I was gonna insure the rims. He did not want me to because he said then he can't take them. Oh Well!! He warned me. Think I wont try and protect myself. I just do not understand how you can tell somebody you love them and in the same breath tell them you are going to steal from them. He put the rims on but he owes me a lot more than that.

Ammie,

I like your approach. I hope it works for LuvMyFamily. I may try that too.

Ammie -- Thanks for the ideas but guess what, I tried that and that was a HUGE NO WAY. He said that she would NEVER permit it. However, at the time I did not really put it in the same context as you did. That may have worked better. He felt that my reasons were just to check up on him. Like you said, it may be but it could also have other important effects on me, like bonding with my step-child. My big complaint about him saying no is because he said that OW would never agree to it. Again, cow towling (sp?) to her and putting her needs/desires before mine.

I had a meeting downtown this morning and I wrote about 3-4 pages of thoughts while on the Metro. I am thinking of compiling them into a letter to give to him. I don't know why. Part of me wants to and the other part feels like I am just wasting my breath.

This time I put if more in the perspective that in life we all need to make sacrifices that hurt because we are giving up something that makes us comfortable or happy to achive a greater good, My analogy: Jesus gave his life for us. Ok, a little extreem but you get my point. My other example: He insisted my mom move back home/another State after she lived with us for 4 yrs. because he said that was part of the problem in our marriage and why he had the A. He told me, it's either her or me (hind sight, I should have picked her) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> This sacrifice hurt me, my mom (she cared for my 2 kids, her only grandchildren but she agreed that she did not want to be the cause of our divorce) and it hurt the kids. I made that sacrifice for the greater good of the marriage, becuase it was something he needed at the time and he felt would help us. This is the same thing. Ok, I am getting upset again.

On a good note, I am talking to the priest tonight.

Ammie’s approach seems reasonable to me as a compromise approach, if you are willing to allow him to be there. Depending on the circumstances, it is also reasonable to draw the line at being at the birth.

Another perspective is the child’s. Although the kid will not really care for years whether his dad was at the birth, it could have an impact later down the line if the kid knows the truth. For me, the fact that my dad wanted to be in the birthing room and his early commitment to be involved in my life is important, especially since he later was only sporadically involved in my life due to mental illness. The dad’s desire to be there can be symbolic of a commitment to the child, for both the dad and the kid.

Luvmyfamily. It does seem like your husband does not fully appreciate what he had done to you. I have not read your earlier posts, but it seems he needs to be educated. I have encouraged my wife to reach books about the affects of affairs on spouses and it has opened her eyes to the trauma and pain she had caused. Helped her have more empathy.

Although our responses can be a vendetta and fueled by pain and anger, if we really want to stay with our spouses, the limits and obligations we impose on our spouses are not based on trying to harm our spouses, but heal ourselves and our relationships. Our anger is not a bad thing, but must be channeled in the right direction to set limits on our spouses to rebuild trust. Good limits can include allowing the husband to contact the OC, but limiting contact with the OW and ensuring that the betrayed spouse is present and involved in all contact.


I agree that you did nothing to start the competition for your husband. If he did not create two options, then there would be no competition. No healthy relationship can exist when we are competiting for our spouses.

Also, your situation seems to scream for limited contact. This was not an affair that happened, the OW got pregnant and it ended. My wife had an affair a decade ago, got pregnant, had an abortion and never saw the guy again. I never knew and recently caught her having affairs again. She and we never dealt with the underlying issues related to the affair and they repeated. Now we are dealing with the issues and may or may not break up. Your situation is different. You must deal with the issues on the affair, the child, but also the fact that he came back home and left again and then she got pregnant.

Obviously he cannot be trusted around the other woman and needs to focus on the marriage and his issues. However, if you somehow could recognize his fatherly desires that allow him to be a father to this new human being that did not ask for any of this, while limiting and supervising his contact, then that may be helpful to the marriage. I use the word supervise in the sense that he has shown that he is not to be trusted, and the only way for him to earn that trust back is slowly and over time. Years down the road may be he can be trusted, but not now.

I am not sure if I responded to your posting, but it is important for us betrayed spouses to understand the multiple motives that our spouses feel. For example, my wife had a short affair with her best friend who is a guy. It ended seven years ago, but they stayed very good friends. Now she has no contact with him. This is not going to change, however, I also need to recognize that she has lost her best friend. I could (and sometimes do) have the attitude that I did not decide to for you to have sex with him, but a more productive attitude is to try and help her through the grieving process. She is not grieving a lost lover, but a friend. She also grieves for the child she aborted due to her first affair. My first internal reaction is a desire not to comfort her for her loss because the abortion happened because she cheated on me. A better reaction is to acknowledge her loss and try and comfort her. Very difficult and I do not always live up to it. My situation is very different from your situation, but the common thread is that our spouses emotions are complex and not always driven by issues related to the affair. It seems to me that your intellectual positions are very solid that your husband can have contact with the kid, that you will be involved, that contact with the OW should be limited; however I am not sure how your husband is taking them. It could be that they are not be communicated properly or it could be that he is a jerk and wants unreasonable things. Obviously, that is your call to make.

Hi LuvMyFamily,

Soo Sorry things aren't going better. I wrote a letter to my husband after confronting him -unplanned on honesty. He still says he is honest. It hurt so much when he treatened to move in with the other woman to raise his daughter. He says he does not love the over woman but says he could fall in love with her. Said if he left to be with her and it did not work out he would never come back to me. Why does he hate me so much because I backed him into a corner and asked for a little honesty. I wrote a poem - amature - in poem section, to the one I love. I wrote that for him last night to try and soften him up because I need to get stuff together before he walks out if that is what he is going to do. He says I am pushing him away. Maybe he is pushing his own self away from me, I am just trying to make it work. I did not get angry. I stated facts and asked him to come forth with the truth but he refused. It seems I got nowhere.

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Genia ]</small>

Genia,

I am so sorry that you H is not understanding you and saying you are pushing him away. I think you deserve the answers you need. However, if he is shuting down, maybe you need to back off a little bit. Maybe a little bit of Divorce Busting is needed. That is a book by Michelle Weiner (not sure of spelling of last name). Anyway, she talks about being strong, doing your own thing and kind of playing hard to get. I have used it, not to the extent that she suggests and it does work. It's also similar to the "dance of intimacy". Where one person pulls in close and the other pulls away. However, the moment the one that pulled close turns around and pulls away..the other then pulls close. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> So, maybe just pull away and he will come close. That sounds so confusing. Were you able to get what I was trying to say?

I know it's hard but I have been told many times by several people, if he wants to go, let him. He will soon find out it is not so grand with OW and OC. Reality bites, you know and it will bit him in the butt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hang in there and a huge hug to you.

August, more good advice. I did leave you other msg. (both of them) on the table for him to see. He liked and agreed with the part about the fatherly stuff and then of course disagreed with the rest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I plan on leaving the msg. you wrote from today laying around.

I don't have time to write more and I will prob not be able to log on all weekend. I hope everyone here has a wonderful weekend!

LUV I hurt when I read your posts...looks like your H can be mentally abusive to you...

Just look after yourself ok!

<small>[ May 22, 2004, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: hollenhund ]</small>

Sorry I wrote alot more but deleted it because im not an expert and would probably give bad advice.

Hi Luv,

I tried your psychology. It worked. At least things are bearable now. I am just disappointed and do not have much hope because he refuses to appoligize for hurting my feelings. He refuses to give me the girls last name. He also will not give me the phone number to verify that she is where he said she was, which is out of town. I hope you are doing alright. Keep me posted.