I don't have time for a long post (more details are on private board); but DH wants to seek visitation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm lining up a family counselor for OUR family... still need to arrange mediation or (??) re: visitation. Don't have $ for attorney, but will get one if it would truly make a huge difference.

XOW (manipulative witch) cold-called H at work and put 5yo OC on the phone. H wants to put me at ease and eliminate ANY appearance that he's doing anything behind my back... one problem is, neither of us really wants to be XOW's contact person. We agree H will do this with us as family or not at all.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any and all tips from contact non-custodial families. Thank you,
J
in recovery 6y, love my H but tired of this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

1) decide how much & what you want (TOGETHER of course) out of C w/ OC.

2) An attorney is good if OW is going to fight you on things but if not.......

3) Mediation, depending on your state, is a cheaper way of doing it. If it is court mediaiton you will not be allowed to be a part of it so bring a good book or something to keep you occupied while they are in there.

The mediators are trained & very good. They can explain to H & Ow what is standard & keep focus on OC.

4) yes, there must be some 3rd party, maybe ..hmm... I dont know. A very devoted & true friend?

5) It must ALL be in writing. If an agreement is come to in the mediation, the mediator will get it typed up professional & then H & OW need to take it to the judge to have signed & a hearing is avoided.

6) make it as detailed as possible.

7) ALL p/u drop-offs be done @ nuetral place, daycare is preferable then there is NC w/ OW ever.

8) If OW must C H for whatever reason--must be done in your prescence or be told about it immediately...to keep the trust flowing.
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KEEP a very close eye out on your kids for any signs of stress or anxiety over this issue. Decide BEFORE hand what you & H will do if your own children do not handle it well.

Decide before hand what you will do if it seems to not go well w/ OW ect. and stick to it.

Be prepared for the worst & then you won't ever be disappointed.

Be honest w/ your feelings--------both of you--so resentments won't build & deal w/ the issues that arise right then & there.
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I feel for you. Examine your motives for C w/OC. We met OC when she was 4.5 yo & OW was NOT happy about it. We have her (overall) %40 of the time & right now for summer every other week. OC is now 6.5 yo. IT has been very stressful on our oldest son (11.5 yo). Things are currently going 'ok' but regret C in the first place. We expect things to go back to normal (stressful) when the school year starts back up so we have some decsions to make as to some kind of changes.
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I hope things go well for all of you & some of these tips will help because we have had to learn these things the hard way.

Hi Ktbunch,

I am gonna give this to my husband. I hope he reads it. My husband wants contact but does not understand the pain it brings.

Jenny,

I hope you'll take my post in the helpful spirit it was meant...

I have a three sided view of parenting to offer.

I have co-parented with my exH for 9 years.
I have been a step-mother
I also have an "oc", currently with NC, but that may possibly change.

First, your situation just sucks. Thats the ex-stepmom in me talking. I was married twice. My second H's W was a witch, plain and simple, and the kids were brats. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true. Spoiled to the bone, aided by my ex. I was often in situations that made me want to SCREAM! I had a "tense" relationship with their mom at best...

My first H, my older son's father and I, have gotten along VERY well for years, and despite the occasional disagreement, have been a model of healthy co-parenting. He is my friend, truly, and a good father.

As a woman who is content with NC, I also know what it is like to imagine virtual strangers entering my little one's life.

Examine VERY CAREFULLY what you can handle if you to choose to establish contact. It will be hard for you, and you CAN make it work, but you will have issues to deal with.

I'd like to expound a bit on my feelings on all of this, but will wait till you see this post before I do. If you want to hear from "the other side" I'd be happy to help, if not, that's ok.

I'm a very reasonable woman (as KT can tell you) and might be able to help you a bit, but if you aren't in a place where you're comfortable hearing my thoughts, that's ok too.

KT, thank you. I replied on private.

meNboyz, I hear ya. Fire away. There are advantages to anonymous posting, ya know? You can be brutal and I can do what I like with it. I'm usually a very easy-to-get-along-with person, anyway.

bump

Hey Jenny,

Sorry it took me so long to get back here, but I haven't been on the computer much the past couple of days.

Like I said, and KT said too, ask yourself how much you can handle. Imagine a "worst case scenario" and go from there.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have a fair knowledge of what may happen in your case. I also don't know your state, and the rules can vary...

I totally understand your feelings about contact with the OW, but you have to remember, she is this child's mother, and it is virtually impossible to raise a child with someone you can't even talk to.
While I think she has a responsibility to acknowledge and respect your marriage, she really doesn't have to go out of her way to respect YOU. I know that is angering, but it's true. Essentially, to her, you are not a player in this game...
As to contact, be careful about what you and your H get in mind that you expect of her. You H has a legal right to have you around this child, but she doesn't necessarily have to agree to let you handle pu/do situations or anything else like that. Legally, you have no "standing" in this matter. If you march into a mediator with a long lists of demands, she may balk and make things tough for you. You say this child is 5? The court will err on her side at first, to ensure the child adjusts properly, so be prepared for a period of time that she may be calling the shots.

Personally, I would have absolutely NO problem with the W in my situation being involved, or BOTH of them pu/do and all of that. However I'll admit I would never agree to let her handle it exclusively. Not because I have any problem with her, I don't. Not because I want contact with HIM, because I REALLY don't. But because while the marriage is currently intact, and I think that's great, I have no guarentee it will be two years from now. I would be uncomfortable putting all the eggs in her basket, knowing something could happen in the future...
And really, it's he and I that are the parents, not her. It is he and I that need to do the crux of the communicating. (even though I dread that..yuk.)

Again, speaking as an exstep-mom, it is a TOUGH place to be if the parties don't get along!! I used to get CRAZY frustrated by behaviors I saw and things that happened, but I couldn't do anything about it! I wasn't even allowed to set foot in the exW's house.

Your situation may work out totally differently, but I'm just throwing some of those "worst case scenario's" at you so you can really think about it...

I don't envy your position...
Good Luck

And if you want to ask me anything, fire away...

Jenny I agree with mentheboyz. I know a lot here won't agree with that, but in all honesty, that is how it is. If all the adults can be adults (which is very rare.......normally one or more are very hard to work with) and think of this child then it can work. Just to cap on my case.......I'm going to court on Tuesday. Xmm has informed me that his wife will stand by him there. That is fine I have no problem with that, and I have a very good friend who will stand by my side as well there. But........I have requested a closed court room. My friend and his wife will have to wait outside the courtroom for us while our case is heard. I did this for two reasons. !. Xmm has lied and I'd hate for her to hear something in this manner(and freak out in court), 2. This is not about him or me....it's about our daughter. I'm hoping that if something comes up with her not being in the court room he will feel less opt to lie and get himself in more trouble. The one thing I do know about his wife is she is great with her kids and does love kids. If we were to do contaact, that is what I hope for and as long as I knew she was treating MY child as she does her's I have no problem with her being involved to a point where she pick ups/drops off and we can talk about things concerning my daughter. The fact is, he's married to her and that is my daughter's extended family. They have every right to be involved in her life. No matter how I would feel about it or look at it. Why fight this as it's just the way it is. I do however have rights over his wife as this is my daughter and his daughter and she is just the stepmother. You've got to figure out if you can handle all this. This is a hard situation for you. It's also a hard situation for her. As far as having a 3rd person doing all the communications and all, I have a great length conversation with my attorney about this. She has looked over the law with this. Her answer to me was it had to be someone that we BOTH agree with. If someone is going to be paid to do this, then whoever is demanding this will be the one to pay for this. I have not shown our daughter to him at all. I have no plans to at this point. What I have done is written a short note to him telling him that here are a couple of pictures of her. If and when he choses contact I hope that all the adults will be adults about it, and everyone will remember there role in this. I also put in that I want what is best for my daughter, but I also have to protect her emotions as well. It was a half page letter letting him know I know his wife can be involved with me acting like an adult if he ever chooses contact with me acting as an adult. He'll get if from his attorney when we go to court on Tuesday. That is all he will get from me unless he asks for more. I won't throw her at him. I hope this all works out for you. I really do. Just remember if your husband includes you you'll be okay. It maybe tough, but you'll be okay. It's also tough on her....just think if you had to hand your kids over to someone else. It's hard under any circumstances. But you know what with time it's easier to deal with. When stbxh firt took my kids I was calling every 30 min., checking on them. Are you doing this right? Are you doing that right? Now I only call them once a day. Sometimes more if for a reason.

A few more points to touch on...

As to the issue of whether or not this woman is still interested in your H...I know many women with OC's, and I can honestly say that chances are, if she's "pushing" contact, it may be that she has an agenda. I know many women with OCs, and virtually NONE who are "over" the H want contact. They simply want to be left to raise thier children. The one's who really want contact, often do still want the connection to MM.

For five years you've been working to heal the marriage. But remember that for five years she has been adjusting to her life with this child, and may now be in a very healthy place with being a single mom. If that is the case, she won't welcome contact with open arms, but if she's reasonable, she'll work with you.

Remember that just as your H lied to you, he also lied to her. You can't REALLY know what he said to her about you. You may be a perfectly lovely, reasonable person, but that might not be her take on it. At the same time, I'm sure your H has badmouthed her to you...maybe some of it is true, maybe not. Just go into it realizing NEITHER of you have the "whole truth".

meinboyz very good point. I can tell you first hand I DON'T want xmm in my childs life for my own selfish reasons. I've been there for her and done it with her. But I know by law I have no choice. I have NO interest in xmm at all. I can't say that all the hurt is gone for him, but it's really about anger about what he's done to my daughter and how he's played games and lied to so much. You don't know what all he's really said to her. He is going to spare your feelings. I have a good idea what he's said to his wife has he told me. He got really desperate and I know for a fact that he lied his a** off. I do know how xmm grew up and one day that guilt will get the best of him. It maybe years from now, but it will. I don't want to take away from his kids, but I don't want to take from my daughter or for that matter my other kids. My xh pays his cs on time and without arguement. I have used large portions of his cs to help pay for xmm's daughter. Her daycare, her formula etc. So I see it has xmm has also deprived my other kids. They have had to give up which is NOT fair. Thank God they have been real troopers over it. I work two jobs to cover expenses for my baby. So I have a lot of resentment for xmm. OUR lifestyle has changed completely. This weekend was the first weekend since I became pregnant that I've spend quality time with all three of my kids. No working from home or going to work. It was nice and we've had a blast this weekend. The reason why I received some money I did not expect to come and I was able to take the weekend off. Xmm has not suffered at all money wise through all this. Even when he has to pay cs he won't suffer at all. It's all about proving a point to me that he wants me to end up on welfare (his words) and say I told you so. I think it's in my daughters best interest to know him and have a relationship with him. I don't want it though. It's been easier raising her on my own. She has many of my friends that just adore her and love her. Men and woman. Plus she has my parents who my father will be a great male figure in her life. My father is a great man with integrity and loyality. So what me said is true. I too know a lot of xow/ow and you can tell by what they are saying why they want the xmm in the child's life. The ones who have moved on have different reasons and it shows....only for the child's sake. NOT all OW are evil stow that you hear about. Just as not all BS are STOBS that you hear about.

I thank you for your replies, meNtheboyz and needtomove on.

As a mother of 3 who loves kids, I totally understand the child's need for stability and mother's need to make sure child is cared for. We don't want to fight to have this child lots of time; H would just like a small chance to get to know her, but not to disrupt her life greatly.

I would have preferred it if XOW wanted no-contact, as I think H would respect that, and I think it would be better for stability of all the children involved; but XOW's pushed for contact and enthusiastically encouraged OC in who her "dad" was her whole short life (like putting her on the phone after 2y no-C!), and despite us being long distance until now!

I do not understand XOW's agenda (!!) because she remarried 2y ago and portrays the step-dad as a fine father. What does she want my H for?!?

Again, thanks for your replies and I will share w/DH.
J
PS. XOW was my so-called "friend" for 3y, so we know each other better than I want to.

<small>[ July 19, 2004, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

moveon,
why do you think contact would be better for your child? From your description, Xmm is a lying jerk. I understand you don't have a choice if he wants visitation, but why would you prefer it, when you have better role models in your child's life?

I guess I just don't value biology as much as some people? (like my H and XOW)

I'm sorry things have been so hard for your kids and hope you had a great weekend!
J

Jenny I have a answer to you, but have a sick baby and need to attend to her. I'll answer you after I get done working tomorrow night. You hang in there with everything.

Jenny,

I can't exactly speak for NTMO, but I can give you a basic answer to your question.

In the beginning when your baby is small, it's all new. At that point it's hard to imagine your child growing up with only half a family.

I did a research paper for a class on the effects of absentee fathers on children, especially boys, and the research was terrifying. I mean, the outlook was really grim. The statistics are incredibly depressing...

After a while though, being the only parent becomes second nature. The bond you have when you don't share your child with anyone is phenomenally strong. Just as your marriage began to heal over the years, so too does the single mother. After a couple of years I guess you just sort of "get used to it".

I'll be honest, I don't buy into the idea that having some distant relation or family friend around takes the place of a father, but I do think that a person can parent well alone.

What it basically comes down to is that time heals.

Pardon me, I was reading this post and I found the following to be very interesting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As to the issue of whether or not this woman is still interested in your H...I know many women with OC's, and I can honestly say that chances are, if she's "pushing" contact, it may be that she has an agenda. I know many women with OCs, and virtually NONE who are "over" the H want contact. They simply want to be left to raise thier children. The one's who really want contact, often do still want the connection to MM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, would you say that if she decided to give D, MM's last name that she was hanging on? I would. But I think she shot herself in the foot, since she now appears to be more my child than hers.

If what you said is true, how do you deal with that? How do you make sure that the child is taken care of and the M is kept safe?

So, would you say that if she decided to give D, MM's last name that she was hanging on? I would. But I think she shot herself in the foot, since she now appears to be more my child than hers.

No, I don't think giving a child their father's last name is necessarily hanging on, I suppose it would be a case by case basis. It would depend on the reason the last name is given. My child has my last name, but that just happened to be what I thought best. Others might disagree. There are so many levels to dealing with this issue, on both sides, that it's hard to isolate what one person might be thinking at any given point in the process.

If what you said is true, how do you deal with that? How do you make sure that the child is taken care of and the M is kept safe?

Well, that's up to the two people in the marriage to do, isn't it? If your M is healing, and you trust your H, than you should both be fine. No one has the power to FORCE another to do something they don't want to. The OW doesn't have the power to compel your H to act inappropriately, or resume a relationship beyond co-parenting. If your H is committed to your marriage, there will be no issue with the OW.

I can't tell you how to deal with it, because it's such a tough, and very personal spot to be in.

Jenny, back......hopefully I can have the time to finish this post. First as much as I do agree with meintheboyz...one thing I don't agree with is that more than likely if she wants the mm to be invovled in the child's life is to hang on. Then agin could of misunderstood that. Jenny, I look at it this way and most on this site don't agree with me. My twins have a father whom I really can't stand to be around for more than an hour before he gets on my nerves. He also has his own set of problems that makes it hard for me. My twins adore this man. The sun rises and falls with them and him. That's there dad. I have no right to deney them of him. He's not a felon, or abusive. Xmm did hurt me. I'm an adult though and adults get past it, over it whatever. They move on. Kids don't deserve to be hurt. Some here may say well the ow put her child in this position. Okay, I'll take 50% of that blame. But you know what.....I'm also taking 500% the responsiblity. So some how that blame is evening out. She has the right to know her dad. She has the right to his last name. She has the right just as his other kids do. No matter how she got here, or what happened, she has that right. She has roots with him. It's his choice to not have contact.....he will have to explain that to her later on in life. He wanted to terminate his rights. His attorney was going to word it in such a way that it would be one of those "loop holes". Well, I could of taken a settlement to go along with this. I choice NOT to. Not for me, but for her. I will not be a part of allowing her bio-father terminate his rights. When she comes to me I can be "clean". What we did was wrong, but she is far from wrong. She's a child/baby. I will NEVER EVER tell her that he wanted to do this either. I have to think of HER. Ya know how much I'd love to tell her what he wanted to do? I can't though. She is my daughter and I won't do that to her self esteam. It's not about the adults anymore. IT's about this baby/child. Just because I think he should be apart of his life does not mean I want him with me. Far from that. I could never be with a man that I have seen to much from in the last year. I can't condone that. IF I was with this man, I'd be condoning his actions towards my daughter. And for the record....I dO NOT condone the affair. I woke up quickly from that. Again, though he is NOT a bad person. He is not a felon. He treats his kids (in the marraige) good, and is her father. I would do what I had to do to make it work if that is what he wanted was contact. I also know that having contact with him, would mean having contact and interacting with his family. It's the way it is. When I get into a relationship again that is serious she will interact in that....it's no different. Just because I have the feelings I have towards him, does not mean she should not have a relationship with him. Just because I think they should have one (if it was mutual) does not mean I want him. Do you know what I mean? Another thing.....IF he were to have a relationship with her, it would have to be out in the open. No hiding her...no hiding it from his wife. That would be as bad as having an affair. Nor will I put my daughter in the posistion of getting her hopes up to see daddy then for him to call and say well wife made these plans blah blah blah another time. NO way! It was also have to be pretty stable. If he wants to see her fine. In my house we have routine, and stability and rules. Alot of bw get this impression that the ow has a dirty house, and they let other people care for there kids and don't work. I work two jobs and the girls go to day camp and the baby to a babysitter. That's it. I hardly ever go out unless there dad has them (which is few and far between for the twins) and now with the baby I never go out unless they are invited. So it has nothing to do with my feelings Jenny. It's about my kids, point blank. Oh more thing. The last name thing. My thoughts on that. I gave my baby my parents last name and xmm's last name. When she is older it's her choice what she wants to go by. I will also have his name put on her birth cirt., once we go to court tomorrow. She has the right to a bio-dad's name on her birth cirt. Non of post is meant to be mean spritied or sarcastic. It's just how I feel. If I can look at this as it's his child and does not matter my feelings towards him it really helps. I'm okay with him not in her life. She is a happy baby. She is thriving and right on target with everything. She will be okay with him or without him in her life, it's just not my place to deny him her. It's his. It also scares me that anytime he could change his mind, but I will deal with that and work with that if that point ever comes. There is also more thing I want to hit on. You mentioned somewhere in this thread that he does not want (your husband)to see this child all the time, just a little. Do you think that is a good idea? Is he going into this with "well I'll be her Uncle buck, or I want her to know me as her daddy? Uncle buck is okay for her and there but if he wants her to know who he really is, don't you think they should consider a plan for him to eventually see her on a constant basis? Ooops....one more thing (my book here) this maybe hard on you now but if all the adults are adults and know where they all stand it will get easier for you. Your a hell of a lady to give this to your husband as well. Not all ow are crazy wack outed woman. Maybe enough time as passed that the ow in your case will accept you as this child's stepmom and allow you without fighting to be a big part of this child's life. Afterall you and your husband are a family. Good luck and I hope I did not rattle your brain to much. It's taken me awhile to type this as I've gone back and forth with my baby while doing this.

NTMO- I admire your maturity & level headedness w/ all of this but......

I disagree w/ the quantity of visitation thing. I do agree it should be consistent, whatever the amount is but personally, I have just come to the realization that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to have very much visitation w/o disrupting EVERYONES lives.

For example, everyone knows we have OC %40 of the time because we feel the same way, that relationships are also built on quanitity, by spending LOTS of time together. IT has been stressful & the schedule felt chaotic.

Now we have realized that in order for it to feel peaceful it must be less time, @ least during the school year. I explained my feelings about his more on my thread (calm B4 the storm).

Being between 2 households, as OC always will be, it is impossible to live in 2 households. So.....someone has got to give in & just bite it by NOT spending that much time w/ OC. That will be MM & W. Because naturally, OC will be primarily w/ mom.

How can you spend lots of time when there is outside school every day to go to? The married family has their routine & the OW family has theirs.

So long winded (sorry) but just wanted to make the point that it will be impossible to have LOTS of time w/ OC, not counting summer time of course.

& by 'lots of time' I mean more than every other weekend. But really that seems to be what is the least disruptive for all the kids.

My advice would be different for divorced parents, I would expect more time than that.

KT, I can see your point, but consistant could mean once a month for that matter and that child knows he's going there once a month. What I was talking about is okay this month we will have this child every other weekend for two or three months then the next 6 months the child is lucky to see his father one or two times. That is what I mean. Even with a divorced couple, I don't know that I would want my kids away from there enviroment every week for a few days. Routine is important. I know that stbxh has taken the girls after day camp and they have gotten home after 8 pm which means that they still have showers to take and all and don't get into bed until 9 or later......the next day your fighting to get them up....and when they are staying with dad......dad lets them stay up and low and behold he's saying well I could not get them up......what was I to do? Pull them out of bed? Uh yes I've already been there done that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> So your right.....we all have our routines...and yes because you home school it makes it even harder. I also remember you saying if your xow would homeschool it would be easier, but that brings on another problem.....would she (ow)be displined enough to homeschool on her weeks with oc? Homeschooling takes alot of displine from the parent. I guess I just did not explain myself well enough about the consistansty. The only thing we do disagree on is I feel it's no different if the couple were divorced or from an affair, or any type of relationship.

<small>[ July 19, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

needtomoveon,

I truly appreciate your taking the time to explain. I don't entirely agree with your position, but you apply it consistantly and are reasonable to work with. You're acting on a *Principle*, and I respect that.

Re: time, I'm talking maybe 20%. I hesitate to give details, but H and I talked about a consistant but light potential schedule. Quite frankly, yes, H'd be more like an "Uncle Buck" in her life than a father! But she does HAVE a full-time step-father; and we will only be living in the area for 3y, part of which H will be deployed! If we continued visitation after we move, it would probably be once/yr; OC would be 9-10yo+.

Based on your principle, which is worse:
completely-100%absent-father-whose-memory-mom-keeps-alive,
or you-know-me-somewhat-father??
A full-time 100%father, H is not even for our 3 kids(due to deployments), muchless for OC who will be long distance most of her life!

We're getting into the every-OC-situation-is-different problem. Each party: MM, W, XOW, C of M, OC, can feel differently in the same situation, and each situation is unique.

Our counselor seems to think visitation would give OC some psychological benefits and would relieve some of H's guilt, but won't work long if XOW has some *other* non-OC agenda, which remains to be seen....

ntmo, you're right: NOT ALL XOW are horrible or nuts. I'm not painting a broad brush. I'm saying OUR XOW, frankly, has some *problems*! I spent time with her for 3 years prior to OC, and got mail from her for 4y after OC, so I'm talking from experience , not just bitterness. One of the first comments our counselor made about XOW behavior is: "that's not healthy."

<small>[ July 19, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>