Hello, Lurker!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been lurking at MB for a very long time and have always had great respect for K's interventions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where's that blush icon when you need it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, this time, I am not sure why he is interfering in this thread and, more than that, I don't understand why he is asking someone who is presenting a perfectly valid point of view to stop posting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This particular thread is a "she said/she said" thread. I have no issue with "contact" (as you know, I raise an OC myself). I do have issues with the bickering and board "wars" that happen over here, however... and I see one starting again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a BS and I fully agree with needtomoveon. Are you going to ask me to leave too? LynnG has her point of view and she is entitled to it. But, I think every one of you knows she goes a bit farther than that.

She makes accusations against others, she is disrespectful of others, and she has an enormous capacity to hurt other people, particularly those that are new to the hurt and pain. I don't think these are MB philosophies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With regards to you---I wouldn't ask you to leave. With regards to LynnG---I have asked her to tone her posts down several times, and have reported her to the moderators on more than one occasion. For many of the reasons that you list.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some of the posters here have been posting for many years and they have not moved forward one bit in their healing or forgiving their partners.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah HA!!! Now you've pushed my favorite button. The only thing more annoying to me than the "Contact vs. No Contact" flame-fests (I like an honest, measured response of pros and cons) is the "whining, *****fests" of WS's. That's true all over the site, but it's truer here because frankly---they've got way more to whine about. However, it doesn't do your marriage ANY GOOD to get into that mode for more than a week. I have upset many ladies over here with my opinions on this---but I hate to see people stuck in the same old patterns of feeling sorry for themselves and hating OP's and not being able to impact their marriage in a good way. You're preaching to the choir here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">K - correct me if I am wrong - I thought the most important agreements were between the WS and the BS? If someone wants to try contact and needs support why should they be told that no contact is the best way to go? Why should they be made to feel that they are some type of pushover or idiot if they want to reach an agreement with their H and not give him ultimatums?

When you have people in such a vulnerable and hurting state -- it is not fair to make them believe that there is only one way to handle this situation... If some people start throwing down ultimatums, I can tell you what will happen -- some people will lose good marriages and some wayward spouses may end up being violent. Is that what people really want when they come to MarriageBuilders? To learn how to give an ultimatum and say "I will not negotiate - it's my way or the highway?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've been lurking for a real long time, and you've got it exactly right. The pros and cons need to be explored for all situations---but in building loving marriages, it's the WAY that these decisions are reached that are often more important to the marriage's health than the decision itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to censure people for not using MB principles, then at least be fair and censure everyone. I, for one, have learned a lot from the OW who post here and I don't see any reason for them to leave.

People who are afraid of their words should not respond just the way you tell them to ignore LynnG. I am not trying to offend anyone but I think that this board should be consistent and not just pick those they like, excuse everything they do and then pick on others because they are considered OWs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. If I were running this board with endless time on my hands, I'd have sent emails to probably 60% of the population here and kicked at least half of them off. But I'm not... I have no issues with OW's being here (my wife is one, after all), but I do have an issue with ANYONE trying to push an agenda here that hasn't to do with MB, and they aren't concerned in building their own marriage. Why'd I pick on needtomoveon??? Probably just because I saw it, and felt the need to regurgitate this missive. I could have picked on many others as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have contact with the OC and it has worked. I have also forgiven my H -- true forgiveness -- where I don't need to bash the ex-OW or to LB my H to satisfy my ego. My life is better than it was before, communication is better and more open, and my marriage is better -- and the OC is included.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is terrific news!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One last question. Did you get through this on your own (or by lurking), or did you get professional counseling? That's another piece of advice that often gets lost around here...

Dear K,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. No need to blush -- I think you have captured and lived the MB principles better than anyone I have read on this board. Not trying to butter you up, just stating a fact.

Forgiveness is my favorite button. I push it so hard because it is a wonderful feeling that I would like to share with as many as will listen. It took me 2-1/2 years from D-day to this point with a lot of pain and tears in between. I can honestly say that my marriage is better than it was in the beginning. I was fortunate in one respect because my H admitted he was wrong, and he wanted our marriage to continue and work.

Immediately after D-day we got professional counselling for about 3 weeks. I wish then I knew about the Harleys. The counsellor I used was ill-prepared to handle a situation involving an OC. But, he gave us what proved to be the best advice for anyone starting on this odyssey.

He told my H that I should talk, talk, talk -- ask any and every question and he should answer honestly, no matter how painful the answer. But the important part of his advice was directed to me. I should absorb everything until I was satisfied that I knew everything I wanted to know, but if there was a point when the information was hurting me more than satisfying me then it was time to stop asking.

I used to ask questions and then get angry about the answers. I kept repeating the same question - "why did you do this?" The last piece of excellent advice the counsellor gave us was -- Stop trying to find a reason because there IS NO reason for infidelity. There is never going to be a reason that makes it right or makes it easier.

I later found the MB site and I studied every piece of information I could find on here. I read the MB forum. I also read every self-help book I could get my hands on. Those resources helped me to start understanding myself and what I wanted.

Armed with that information, I asked the questions, but not as a W. (Bear with me here as I explain). I asked questions and listened as if I were a best friend advising a friend with a problem. I did not get angry, did not pass judgements. I LISTENED not just HEARD - big difference. I had chosen a weekend when things were quiet and I promised my H that no matter what he said I would not get angry.

That was the hardest weekend of my life but I learned more about the A and us than ever before. I kept my word. I did not get angry and that seemed to give my H confidence because he explained many things and seemed almost relieved to be able to tell me.

We promised each other that, no matter how painful, we would tell each other the truth. We also realized that we had been expecting each other to read minds. We would clearly state our emotional needs not make each other guess. The MB principles were embraced by both of us like a life line.

The 18 months that followed were not easy. The sad feelings popped up now and then -- the "why did this happen to me?" I made a conscious effort to get change my thoughts. I would get busy doing something and deliberately push those thoughts out of my mind.

I kept reading relationship books. I kept a journal and I started to realize that it was not my marriage I wanted back. I wanted a BETTER marriage.

I did not want to be a victim any more. I knew that this would mean radical change and no going back. So, I started to explore forgiveness by reading all that was available. I had said the words many times, but then I would also make a crack about what he did to me (random LB's).

I understood that true forgiveness meant wiping the slate clean -- not forgetting what was done -- but no longer keeping score and throwing out little digs to satisfy my injured soul. I spent a long time deciding whether I could do it. But, I knew NOT to do it meant carrying my H's A with me for the rest of my life and I was NOT prepared to do that.

When the forgiveness finally came, it was at the point that I realized that everyone in the situation was moving forward except me. I was continuing to hurt myself over and over again with thoughts of the affair and the betrayal.

It was a very conscious decision to forgive -- like the book by the same name - Forgiveness is a choice. When I chose it, it was like a huge cloud lifted. I felt at peace with myself and my life. I suddenly knew that we were better and stronger than ever and I felt ready to see him as an equal partner who made a serious error in judgement but was now re-committed. I thought of the errors I had made (and we all have them, maybe not as dramatic as an A or an OC, but none of us are perfect).

I am a very devout person and that helped me throughout this ordeal. I knew a number of things after the forgiveness -- things had to be normal, I had to trust my H as if that trust had never been betrayed. And, he was no longer the man I married he was now a father to another child. The latter was very painful for me because we had no children due to medical problems and we were not sure if we would ever have any of our own.

On this issue of bringing the OC into our lives, I listened to my H's feelings. He was prepared to not have contact for my sake, but he admitted that he never wanted to bring a child into the world to be abandoned. It was my mom who told me a story that seemed to be a sign for contact.

She told me about her best friend, an elderly lady whose son divorced a wife that she was particularly fond of. He remarried and the elderly friend never treated the new wife well or with respect. The friend became very ill. All of her family and friends deserted her. It was the daughter-in-law that she disliked that came to see her everyday, helped prepare her food and took care of her. My mom said "you never know where kindness will come from".

That seemed like a sign to me that this child, regardless of her beginning, might be sent to enrich our lives in some way. And, she has in so many ways. Contact has not always been easy. You put up with a lot of snide remarks, a lot of game-playing - until the adults decide to behave like adults, but when that little girl puts her hand in mine -- even for a moment -- or shows such appreciation for something small we give her -- I just know it's right. (I think this is something you know about, huh, K?)

Funny thing is, she is very artistic and her mom is not so she never picked up on it. We bought her an art kit and it is so wonderful to see her "creating" masterpieces. This is something that we have brought out in her that she may never have been able to explore.

I don't know where this road is headed and it is as bumpy as hell sometimes, but I am having the time of my life and all it cost me was a few years of intensive self-therapy.

The bottom line is it meant accepting that my H had an affair, accepting that the affair changed things forever because a new person was created, and deciding whether I could live within this new world of mine. When I stopped fighting the facts and starting accepting them, that is when the metamorphosis began for me.

K you said something in your post to me that I think sums up a great deal of what I feel:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've been lurking for a real long time, and you've got it exactly right. The pros and cons need to be explored for all situations---but in building loving marriages, it's the WAY that these decisions are reached that are often more important to the marriage's health than the decision itself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could have said, okay, no contact. But I don't think it would have been healthy for my marriage to deny my H's feelings completely. The decision was not reached lightly and without discussion, but it was reached after we had a chance to start rebuilding US. It was a decision made after I felt secure and confident that the marriage would heal and be restored.

There are so many other things I would love to tell, but this is already too long and I think you get the picture. If there is something specific you want to know from me, I would be happy to share.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity say this much. If it helps just one other person, then I am relieved and happy.

<small>[ August 12, 2004, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: HappyAgain2004 ]</small>

Pepperband,

It occurred to me after I wrote this supernaturally long post that I did not address the point you made on the other thread.

Promise I will do so -- just give me time.

HappyAgain:

This is a terrific story, and an equally terrific post. I don't have a ton of time right now to respond, but I appreciate you posting this. My guess is that you'll have the opportunity to touch more than one person if you hang around here.

I had several reasons for beginning my participation here six years ago, but one thing that got me to dive in was a poster by the name of Jim who told a story very much like mine (sans the pregnancy). Very much like yours...

Welcome! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WELCOME to MB

Wonderful story.

Thanks for writing.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thank you HA'04. Your story helped me. You gave me great insight into my H. I think I understand him a bit more after reading this.

This is what I love...the ability to help one another. When it doesn't matter which label the writer wears, nor which label the reader wears.

~ad

PS. You remind me of a beloved BW poster who's not been around for a very long time.

HIJACK--just to say HI AD

Autumnday,

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you HA'04. Your story helped me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said, if my story helps just one other person, I am truly relieved and happy. Thank you to you.

As far as the beloved BW who doesn't post anymore -- I remember her well and I hope to carry on her spirit whenever I can.

I had a feeling you might know her.

If anyone can carry on her spirit, I'm quite confident you can.

Welcome aboard!

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Happy Again...

A question... hypothetical...

Would you have considered your marriage happy and better than ever, if there were no sexual relations resumed between you and your husband after the affair? Would you consider the marriage to be recovered to your satisfaction if this were true?

Pep

Hey Pepper---that looks like a question for me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (mainly yes, and no, for the answers...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong> Hey Pepper---that looks like a question for me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (mainly yes, and no, for the answers...) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse my ... huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I must be BLIND <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> and dumb <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ... what'cha saying?

K, Have you posted to the "Loyal Husbands" thread on GQII? I am trying to figgure something out about recovery, and females who do not want to return to the marriage after an affair... These are some fine men who are really, really giving their ALL for their wives, sadly to no avail. ... And for the life of me I am puzzled as to why they cannot attract their wives back home. I am seriously missing an idea or a glimmer of insight about this.

Sometimes I find women harder to understand than men. And some men have to pretend to NOT desire their wives to coax her toward him ... I don't get it at all.... Believer was asking for my help, and I am drawing a blank.

Why would a woman NOT be attracted to a man (husband) being attracted to her??????

Pep

Oh good, I wasn't the only one confused by his response.

I wonder if he meant to say "mainly no, and yes...", instead of "mainly yes, and no..."???

One never knows with K, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Pepper:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you have considered your marriage happy and better than ever, if there were no sexual relations resumed between you and your husband after the affair?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In our marriage, we have not had sex at all since before the affair (it's been nearly 8 years, I think... honestly, it gets hard to count that high). Is our marriage happy? Yes, in general. We do have a couple issues to work through (including that one listed above). Is our marriage better than ever? Yes---absolutely better than pre-affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you consider the marriage to be recovered to your satisfaction if this were true?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a guy. I like sex nearly as much as beer and bratwurst. The answer is obviously "no"---I don't consider the marriage recovered to my satisfaction. That doesn't mean I'm not happy in my marriage---but completely satisfied? Nope.

Hope this clarifies things...

All I have to say is WOW--can't hardly believe that coming from a man that you are still there after lack of sex--I'm impressed.

You ROCK K!

K-----you are saying that you have not had sex w/ your wife for about 8 years? How can that be? I mean really, she had A, got pg, you took her back & she must have wanted to come back-so why no sex?

I'm sorry, I don't really know you to get so personal but......that just seems so anti-recovery & anti-married.

How can she say she is committed to the marriage but not have sex w/ her H. They go together.

I am totally taken aback here.

AND I am impressed w/ you & sorry for you also. You must be some kind of man!

I really just can't believe this.

I am sorry.

kt, albany:

Much of this is old news for the oldtimers. Why no sex? A combination of things. I'd say that my wife still suffers from a lot of guilt/shame on what she did, and the trigger for her is the act of sex. Couple that to the fact that she had a stroke several years ago, and we went through a year of being concerned with a brain tumor, being very afraid of becoming pregnant (not good for her stroke condition), and she's now on anti-D meds (not great for libido)---she's simply not "enthusiastic" about having sex.

We're currently exploring a couple of counseling options right now to deal with this. So while sex is a very good measure of marital health---it's not the only one. And we're doing pretty well on most other fronts.

K ... assuming both of you have all operational equipment... ??? (too personal a question, sorry)

This is very interesting... is this a choice by one or both of you?

In a way, this comes around to what I was trying to get out of Happy Again... she seems to have a handle on recovery pretty darn good.

What is with wives who want the man/husband to perform all the husbandly duties ... provide income, security, companionship, parenting, fun ... and absolutely not want to fully participate with sexual loving? I do not get it. And I see a LOT of this on the GQII board recently. (8 years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ... I think there may be some physical problem at work here)

When I see the super men who's wives only want limitations on their interactions ... I can only shrug my shoulders and wonder... "Hmmmm what is going on here?"

And I wonder ... what wife would allow her formally cheating H to return to the marriage bed and NOT (eventually) become sexual again??? Is this a problem that often swings the other way?? Do men often refuse their wives? (NEVER in our house, I must say) One woman on GQII was stuck with a H who refused to kiss her on the lips... but I think this was not going to last very long. He was, I think, reacting to a recent trigger.

I must say ... this neutering of marriage just feels strangely wrong to me... (maybe because I still have a thong stuck up my backside! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Geeze K .... what POJA will unravel this knott?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I'm w/ pep, I think it is a shame! I also see, hear about & read about so many wives 'limiting' thier H. It is insane how much this is going on.

You don't have to be enthusiastic about sex to have it. & the concerns about pg------BC??? Or numerous uses of it @ a time are pretty safe----

ALso, it is a proven fact that the more you do 'it' the more you want to......soooooo 8 years is a pretty long time to have a trigger.

I am also puzzled as to why this seems so 'ok' w/ you, almost like it is just an inconvience rather than a big issue. But I could be interpretting that wrong.

I just think this is so sad & wrong. I just don't get it. How can W live w/ herself & think this is 'ok'.

There are ad's that do not affect libido. There ae even meds now to 'enhance' libido for women--I just see NO excuse for this to continue like this for anybody.

Yah your marriage is pretty good besides 'that' you say------maybe becuase you are just 'really good friends'?

It doesn't make sense to me-if W says she loves you then why withold something so fundamental to being married--it is PART of marriage. What does W say? how is she justifying this? If she has triggers---that is her issue not yours so why do you have to pay for it?

I am sorry for the pain this must be causing you. Really. Only now, almost 12 years after saying I do, can I truly understand how hurtful something like this could be.

My H was hurt by me in this way (never to that extrememe though) because I had my own issues. But the thing is I realized they were MY issues & there was no reason for HIM to suffer because of it.

Now we are both right on track & I am 'preachin' the good news' to every body who will listen! LOL

Very interesting post.

I must say that I too think it's a shame and I feel bad for K. However, if he can live with that who's to say he's wrong.

I must admit that my H's reason for the A were due to what he called my lack of interest in SF and the fact that it got boring. However, we never went a year or months without, it just was not frequent and I guess the same old same old. However, like KT said I found out how hurtful this could be to a man. After reading, I realized how important sex was, how it made them feel loved and cared for...like a kiss or hug made me feel loved and cared for.

I also agree with the comment by PB or KT (can't remember who) that most BS's (including me) would not want a WS back in their bed without sex. Since I found out about the A, we have had more frequent and satisfying SF than ever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I will never make that same mistake again.

I guess my question would be for K's wife. Is she not concerned about pushing K away? She had an A most likely due to a need that was not met by K. Is this not the same thing?

For K, I give you a lot of credit. I also think that we each need to realize that we all put or or deal with things in our M that others may think are crazy. What is right for one of us is not necessarily right for the other. What hurts one will not hurt the other, and so on.