I read Rachel's post this AM in her thread "Huge Lovebusting...need some help." about Plan B participants still allowing the spouse to control their lives. I have to say I don't disagree.<P>One reason I've always been averse to "psychobabble" books is that every situation is different and no one approach works for everyone.<P>I've read HNHN and SAA from the Harley collection, and while there's a lot that's worthwhile, there's a lot that just isn't applicable to everyone's situation. Right now, it sounds as if Rachel needs to proceed with her divorce in order to feel she controls her own life. I suspect she'll take some guff on that, but perhaps in HER life that's the right thing to do.<P>As some of you know, I've been having some problems with the "attractive spouse" issue, because Harley talks about women even going so far as to have plastic surgery, if necessary, to meet this need. I've had it out with KAM in the Emotional Needs forum about this issue, and his view is that "this is just something that men need, and women have to learn to accept it", and mine is that "attractiveness" in the Harley mind doesn't just mean "the best you can be", it means striving to some artificial societal view of what "attractive" is, and that even if weight is controlled, women still age, and I think that having to have elective surgery to keep your spouse is unreasonable.<P>I also think that some of the generalizations that the Harleys talk about in terms of what women need and what men need don't apply to all, and this can cause people to get bogged down in strategies that may not work. For example, it's conventional wisdom in Harleyland that men's primary emotional needs are attractive spouse and sex. So what do women do with spouses who only compliment them when they're wearing something utterly ordinary, and who only seem to want sex once a week (and there are more of us than you might think)? What about WOMEN whose primary needs are attractive spouse and sex. Some of us without children don't care about whether the guy is a good father. Some of us with good jobs don't need financial support. <P>The point is that everyone's different, and I wonder sometimes if some of my own dissatisfaction comes from taking these principles too much verbatim and not separating the wheat from the chaff as they pertain to my own life.<P>Any thoughts?

D&C:<P>In general (and in specifics), I think that Harley's concepts are right on, it's people's interpretations, implementations, and integration of them that get's screwed up (K's three "I's"... )<P>Taking Rachel's case. When she first showed up, I weighed in on the "opposite" side of what she was pursuing. She was going down the divorce path, even though she "didn't want it..."<P>Plan B is for that. Plan B is no contact. It's impossible for your spouse to "control" your life when you're in a REAL PLAN B.<P>Instead, Rachel gave financial and child visitation concerns as the main reason that she's she "needed" the divorce. Not being her lawyer, I accepted that.<P>But now, what's she doing??? Those reasons appear not to be very important to her. She still says she doesn't want the divorce. But she's going for it to punish her husband because he hasn't come far enough in her timeperiod. My best guess is that if she had implemented a true Plan B that she'd probably have gotten a real chance to reconcile by now. And she's close to having that chance. And she may STILL have that chance just seconds before the divorce. But the issue is that the two of them are punishing each other for their actions, and there's going to be even more resentment to get over. <P>So that's my take. Rachel hasn't used anything remotely resembling a full implementation of Harley's principles. She's done it on her own. And she doesn't seem very happy, and it doesn't appear that she's addressed problems in her life that (I would believe) she should have been addressing. So I disagree that her divorce will give her a better prospect with her life.<P>Now, I've followed the attractive spouse thread. First off, Harley HIMSELF says that these categories are generalizations, and that some men and women differ. And some have "needs" that may not even be categorized by the top 10. That's why you do the work, you fill out the forms. You evaluate these issues for yourself. Harley doesn't imply anything different---he does categorize them into the "predominately" male or female needs because they can be categorized as such. But that doesn't mean that he's hammering every man or woman into that mold; quite the opposite is true. I think that you read the labels and don't read the "fine print" concerning how to use this information, and that's where the misunderstandings come from.<P>Let's get back to attractive spouses. Let's say that I would prefer my my wife, a petite, blonde 34A; to be a buxom, 38D redhead. Is it OK for me to state this to her? Absolutely!!! It's follows the "Rule of Complete Honesty". Is it OK for her to dye her hair and have plastic surgery for me. Coompletely!!! She's following the Rule of Care---she's meeting an important emotional need.<P>But only if she enthusiastically agrees. The POJA is the rule you've forgotten about. And if my wife doesn't want to go under the knife, then what? We brainstorm. We negotiate. Maybe just the redhead will satisfy me---she can dye her hair. Maybe she doesn't want to dye---a wig will do. Push-up bras can work "Wonders" and "Miracles".<P>In the end, we must both enthusiastically agree to the solution. That's the tenant of the POJA. And if we can't agree, then NOTHING get's done. It's not a "sacrifice" issue, because sacrifices can end up building huge stores of resentment. <P>So, while you may feel that surgery is not an option, that's fine. Other's may disagree. That's OK too. Everybody's solutions will be unique to their situation. What IS univeral (IMO), is that applying these rules (Complete Honesty, POJA, meeting your spouses needs, not punishing or abusing them) will lead to a fantastic marriage, if both spouses are doing their best.<BR>

But that's my whole question: What constitutes "doing your best"? And whose responsibility is it?<P>When my H refuses to acknowledge any legitimacy to my concerns and feelings, is he "doing his best"? Maybe he is...maybe he's doing the best HE is capable of doing.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Let's get back to attractive spouses. Let's say that I would prefer my my wife, a<BR> petite, blonde 34A; to be a buxom, 38D redhead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then why did you marry a petite, blonde 34A? Isn't that sort of unreasonable? Now, in my discussions with KAM, he said it doesn't matter if it's unreasonable, that's the way it is. But I think that in cases where you want a completely different physical type from what your spouse is, it IS unreasonable to expect your spouse to either starve him/herself to meet that expectation, dye his/her hair, spend all spare time in the gym, have elective surgery, etc., in order to live up to that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it OK for me to state this to her?<BR> Absolutely!!! It's follows the "Rule of Complete Honesty".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't honesty sometimes gratuitously painful, though? I mean, who wants to be married to someone who you know really wants you to be completely different from what you are? I'm not talking about an honest discussion of needs and problems, I'm talking about a case in which you knew your wife was a blonde, small-breasted woman but you married her anyway, even though you would have preferred a large-breasted redhead. Wouldn't that imply a certain degree of acceptance of her the way she is?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Is it OK for her to dye her<BR> hair and have plastic surgery for me. Coompletely!!! She's following the Rule of<BR> Care---she's meeting an important emotional need.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But again, by this definition, the "Rule of Care" is a stacked deck -- stacked in favor of men, because of the unreasonable standard of beauty that our society places on women -- that they be tall, long-legged, small facial features, small hips, large breasts, and look 25 forever. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But only if she enthusiastically agrees. The POJA is the rule you've forgotten about. And if my wife doesn't want to go under the knife, then what? We brainstorm. We<BR> negotiate. Maybe just the redhead will satisfy me---she can dye her hair. Maybe she<BR> doesn't want to dye---a wig will do. Push-up bras can work "Wonders" and "Miracles".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, though, the POJA seems to imply agreement with YOU and what YOU want, rather than your wife's "right" to be accepted for her own physical type, rather than having to jump through hoops. (I'm not saying this is what you think, but since this is a hypothetical discussion, I'm running with it.) <P>What I'm wrestling with right now is (and it sounds trivial), what do do with my hair. My H doesn't like my hair permed, he likes straight hair. I don't have straight hair. I have hair that's flat and limp when the weather's dry, and frizzy and fluffy when it's humid. It's basically unmanageable. The perm equalizes it, makes it easy to care for, and appropriate for a professional.<P>But he doesn't like it. We discussed it last night, and I told him I don't like it real curly either, but that's how it starts out. Yesterday it was fuzzy because of the humidity, but if the humidity goes down, it'll just hang. I have an appointment for a new perm this week, and I'm wrestling with what to do. He said, "Don't change your hair for me...if you like it, that's what's important." But is this what he REALLY thinks? I thought I might ask the hairdresser if there's something we can do that's a bit softer than a curly perm, but still -- it's going to involve more time spent fussing with my hair.<P>My H is NOT a big one for nighties, push-up bras, thong underwear, that sort of thing. At least then he'd be predictable.<P>So I'm trying to find a balance here between what's right for ME and my lifestyle, and the way HE likes things. And it's hard, when he seems unable to ask for what he wants.<P>That's one factor that's triggering this discussion.

I have to say I agree partly with K and partly with Dazed. <P>K has a point in that it is his 3 "I"s that are important. All men don't have the same needs. So, by comunicating those needs through his questionaire will help the spouse understand what is important to them. <P>Dazed has a very good point too. I mean, if you are attracted to tall, buxom redheads, then why would you marry a petitie blonde? It's one thing to have your prtitie wife wear 6 inch heals, a push up bra, and a wig for a night of fun (as long as she is willing of course), but to expect her to transform in to something she isn't is completly different. If I prefered short, redhaired, small breasted women, with blue eyes over the way my wife looks (I like the way she looks), I may be honest but that honesty would be devasting. I don't think that kind of honesty is appropriate. <P>On the other hand, if you married a 95 lb petite blonde who later ballooned into a 300 lb woman and physical attractiveness was a major need, I can understand how the husband would feel very disappointed. <P>I think we all want acceptance from our spouse, but we need to keep their desires and wants in mind also. There is a balance that we need to find with one another. <P>So, I agree everyone is different, but I believe the principles allow for those differences too.<P>SHA

Dazed, I'm with you on this one. Wish I could stay for the discussion, but must go to work. I'll check back later or tomorrow. Surgery? Really? Man, I guess I'm lucky my H likes the natural look. He's acted like he's liked my body just the way it is, even after the toll of three kids. When I look at my wedding pictures 17 years ago, I looked soooo slender. I dress up well, but he's got to notice the difference. Doesn't seem to like my body less. Guess that's one big thing in his favor. <P>Of course I wouldn't have married a man that used hair spray or was overly concerned with his own appearance because I couldn't stand someone telling me what to wear, etc...<P>Dazed, I bet your great the way you are. Got to go...

The bottom line is that the basic principles are pretty much universal. <P>But it is true that we are all different. Therefore the way we go about doing things is different. Let's take plan B... That may completely ineffective for some people. I may try it until I am blue in the face and it may never work, but there will always be that person that says I didn't try long enough. <P>Lets take my situation. My H has been gone one day short of a week. Although I told him no contact - he called twice the first day. I did not call him back. The next day he called again - sounding angry, but I did not call back. Then he sent email - I answered that. Hence plan B was over and we have had some contact. Did I let it go on, no. Was that wrong? Maybe, maybe not. <P>What I do know is that we all have tolerances for the waiting period. The way I see my H put his short term happiness over everything else. Was I willing to wait? Yes - how long? I don't know. Now that he is gone... I know that I am a strong, independant woman who does not need him (except to have more children). Therefore, I am more willing to move on and wait less. We all deserve better than what these betraying spouses dish out. Communication should have been first and that takes two regardless. So, when I move on some will say, but she doesn't want a divorce - why is she filing? The bottom line - my life is too valuable (and my sons) to wait on someone forever. I have plans and they don't include sitting around pining away for a man who isn't sure what he wants. Is that punishment to him if he decides 6 months down the road that he made a mistake. Maybe, but he brought it on himself. I don't know about you guys, but I can say that I did do the best I could. Are there things I could have done differently? Maybe. Without a spouse who wants to communicate or without someone who is willing to give a little it is too hard on oyur own. That is what I did for 9 years. Now that his is gone it is like a fog is lifted. I don not think I will find someone who loves me more than he did in our "hayday', but I will find someone who loves me better. Someone who appreciates me and is willing to meet me in the middle. <P>Off the box now - huuuuummmmmmmmmmm!<P>Have a great day! <P>------------------<BR>H

I think what K is saying is being taken out of context. If both partners agree in a POJA to something as radical as surgery (for an example - not as an example of how extreme we should all go....) then why not.<P>It's about needs and willingness to meet the needs WITH a POJA. <P>Since bringing up Rachael's case, I would completely agree with K on this one. I have seen her not get the result or answer she wanted, so she started a new thread - as kind of a distraction to deal with the issues. <P>I feel she can move on just fine without lovebusters in a real plan B, and work on herself without sending so many mixed messages to her already confused husband. <P>If what she wants is for her marriage to be restored, then why would she do the opposite and push for a divorce. Dazed, I know you aren't into psychobabbo. But this is a no brainer - at least from my perspective.<P>I think the Harley principles make sense - but it sure is really hard to implement them when you are the only one in the equation, but as you know - it can work.<P>Your lovebank is empty right now, so no wonder you are less motivated to meet your husband's needs. I still vote to send him to a crash course on communicating.<P>Have you thought about a "body" perm, it is very gentle but you can blow it dry straight afterwards. Do not use a humectant product during the humid months - your hair will respond better. That's when the cheaper brands work the best - during the summer.<P>You can still curl your hair with a body perm, and you can blow it dry straight. Share your concerns with your hairdresser, it is her job to help consult with you to come up with something that works for both of you.<P>If I let dressing be up to my husband, I would look like how he likes his women - a little on the trashy side. Yuck.<BR>

tnt, you are a voice of sanity here.<P>My situation has no resemblance to Rachel's, but I thought I'd tie them together in a "How verbatim should these principles be taken?" discussion.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your lovebank is empty right now, so no wonder you are less motivated to meet your<BR> husband's needs. I still vote to send him to a crash course on communicating.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, but I need to learn how to also. I mean, I can communicate my needs, but I am constantly terrified of anyone's anger -- particularly his. This baffles him. He thinks HE'S done something to cause the terror, and aside from his withdrawal when he's angry, he hasn't. It's my old baggage.<P>He is NOT receptive to any kind of books, etc., to help him communicate better. He's one of those people who thinks the problem is with everyone else, never with him.<P>Yeah, the bank is empty right now, and it's so empty there seems to be little he can do to put enough "gas in the tank" to "run the car", so to speak. Offering to quit his job as the only way to address the OW/"friend" problem is not an acceptable answer, and he's got to know that.<P>Now I deal with a pool party this Saturday which she plans to attend, I'm sure.<P>I used to get "body" perms, but they have no effect and fall out within a week -- a waste of $100. I spent years as a slave to a blow dryer, and I NEVER want to blow dry my hair again. When the air is dry, any shape I give it limps out, and when it's humid, it frizzes up. That's why I started getting perms in the first place...because nothing blow-dried stays in place..nor do rollers (the wearing of which would be worse in terms of "attractive spouse" issues than curly hair), nor does anything done with a curling iron. Wash and go is important, and better for my hair, because a perm is 3X/year, whereas heat appliances are daily. I thought maybe I'd ask the hairdresser to use slightly larger rollers this time, for a "softer" look; even if it means it falls out faster.<P>I'm lucky that my H doesn't go for the "hooker" look. The nightgowns I wear are really for me, they make me FEEL sexier (though he now says I'm oversexed sometimes). He likes the "hippie chick" look.<P>

Hairdresser could probably go for a larger rod and stronger solution. She'll have some ideas. <P>You said you both were conflict avoiders. That really says that you don't have conflict resolution skills. Which is part of communicating for your husband, but for you I don't see that is an issue. <P>What if you suggested that you both took a little conflict resolution class/ or tapes - and rather than saying for the benefit of the marital issue - say for the career's sake? I mean - conflict avoiders like to have someone else to blame, right - so you could say something like - "In your industry it seems that all the bosses are knuckleheads. I'm experiencing some conflict at work - and thinking that maybe both of us might benefit from some conflict resolution skills touch up?" Totally non-abrasive???? <P>Just be very careful that blaming doesn't come into how you communicate. No matter how you phrase it, he see's it as an attack? Same with my husband..... <P>My situation and your situation are not even comparable to Rachael's. But - I understand that ole' lovebank empty theory - I'm feeling a little like that right now too. Is it because we do all the work? Maybe we need to do something for us.<P>I am going to do something for myself today, that excludes thoughts or feelings about my marriage. Maybe I'll take my 6 year old to the playground at the park after school, and go to Dairy Queen.....<P>Hang in there Dazed. I don't think you are the confused one here, I think HE is....<P>How is your fan fiction coming along? I loved ROSE! Very good.

D&C,<P>I had a long reply for you, but our T1 went down and I see that tnt has done a good job filling in for me! <P>I think the real issue for you and your husband is communication. I'd find a counselor who can help you address these---even if you have to do it yourself. You might try Steve Harley---I haven't asked him directly about communication issues, but once all these pieces are in place things seem to work pretty well. I know that your husband won't go, so try it for yourself.<P>I know it's tough. But it's the cornerstone of the marriage, so without it, things will always be shaky.<P>SHA, FHL: I'm surprised that you two took me so far out of context with my silly example. For what its worth, SHA; I agree with you. If I wanted a buxom redhead and married a petite blonde, I'd be an idiot. But people (and their needs) change. The key is to use these principles to explore all the options (even the seemingly ridiculous ones like surgery), and choose the one that works best for the couple. And choose "None" if they can't agree.<P>One point that's very important to remember is that we're deluged with this "Love me for MYSELF" attitude. It's very unhealthy for a relationship. I would much rather be married to a person who said: <P>"I love you and am willing to do A, B, and C because you're so important to me. And speaking of that, my love for you would increase if you'd do X, Y, and Z..."<P>That's the ideal situation. Someone who cares about your needs, and can communicate their's as well.

TnT:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hairdresser could probably go for a larger rod and stronger solution. She'll have some ideas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HE (gay guy )<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"In your industry it seems that all the bosses are knuckleheads. I'm experiencing some conflict at work - and thinking that maybe both of us might benefit from some conflict resolution skills touch up?" Totally non-abrasive???? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not where he's concerned. He knows me well enough to know what I'd be getting at. On some level he knows full well what his shortcomings are. In fact, I'd say his self-esteem problems are as bad if not worse than mine. But he handles them by saying, "This is me. If you don't like it, f*** you!" I, OTOH, say, "Tell me what I can do for you."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just be very careful that blaming doesn't come into how you communicate. No matter how you phrase it, he see's it as an attack?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup. All the "I feel"'s in the world don't make a bit of difference. Remember that letter I posted last week that I gave him? Just made him defensive and angry. So much for trying to resolve problems, eh? He just doesn't have the ability to step into my shoes at all.<P>Fanfic is fine. I'm posting a new chapter tonight. I think you'll start to recognize some things...<P>K:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would much rather be<BR> married to a person who said: <P>"I love you and am willing to do A, B, and C because you're so important to me. And<BR> speaking of that, my love for you would increase if you'd do X, Y, and Z..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And so would I. My problem is that my H doesn't TELL me what he needs, I have to GUESS. And if something bothers him, he either tells me it's not important (like the hair) or he holds it in, then throws it in my face ten years later when I can't do anything about it.<P>As for "...and my love for you would increase if..." -- I can't see him going for it. Any time I've expressed any unhappiness with anything he does, his answer is always to get angry, withdraw, or assume it means I want to divorce. <P>If someone can tell me how to improve our communication by myself, please let me know. Because right now he interprets everything, no matter how it's expressed, as an attack on EVERYTHING about him.<P>Like his "friend." You would think, that after countless discussions, all phrased as "I feel X and here's why", he'd at least try to understand, or at least accept that the situation bothers me. But no, all he does is get defensive and twist it around so I'm the one at fault.<P>I just don't know what to do to resolve the situation any more, and my therapist is at the "This is what he is. He has limited resources to give you. Accept him or leave" point.

k, <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Someone who cares about your needs, and can communicate their's as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's all I want.<P>I like your three "I's". I think the principles are flexable enough to address most marriage issues. <P>Sorry if I took your example out of context.<P>SHA

SHA:<P>Don't be sorry. I used this outlandish example (complete with surgery) to illustrate how the principles can work. And (apparently) it didn't work out so well.<P>I'll refine my model examples...

D&C,<BR>I don't think the Harleys are saying in their books that what they present is an absolute. They are saying that it is a general tendency for most. Sure everyone is different. That is why we have to adapt these general directions with what is actually the case in an individual's life. <P>I have found that much of what pertains to women applies to my W, yet at the same time there are some views my W holds that are very much like a man's. Each person's background is different but all the things listed do apply to everyone just in varying degrees. It is much like the Myers-Briggs typologies. Each one of the types is apart of me but I generally tend to be ENTP.<P>One other thing is that I have found is that depending on our emotional state and maturity level, the needs the Harleys teach may vary from situation to situation within each person. Today my most important need may be affection, 5 years from now it may be sex.<P>I skimmed the other posts and agree that it depends. I don't mean to sound judgemental but the more I pray and study my Bible, am finding that once we develop a really close relationship with Jesus, my perception becomes more concern for the other person than for myself because I am sure the pain is great on the other side which is part of the reason the mess began in the first place.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Dazed or should I say Confused???,<BR>Are you trying to have it out with me again? If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately.<BR>I do not[/i/] hold the opinion [quote]and his view (meaning mine) is that "this is just something that men need, and women have to learn to accept it"[quote]<BR>If you've read any of my other posts you'll see that I believe a woman's most attractive quality is a smile and her sense of humor. Now if you take offense to that? Geez. Re: plastic surgery. I could see it helping in extrememe situations or some. Heck my wife's breast shrunk two cup sizes after our kids, she's now almost flat. Do I miss the old her yup. Does she need plastic surgery, no. We both need to learn how to appreciate her body now. Heck when she's eighty I hardly doubt that any surgeon could ever help But she can smile and she can be supportive.<BR>Attractiveness is just a basic human need. Women usually mask it under a concern for their husbands health (which is legitimate) and or hygiene issues. <BR>Now unless you want to [i]have it kindly refrain from involving me in your misquotes and trying to provoke a fight.

KAM, I think I had you confused (so you were right ) with Zyg in JodiC's thread in the "Emotional Needs" discussion.<P>My apologies for the confusion.<P>You and I argued about something else. <p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited September 07, 1999).]

In honor of fighter, and his bequest to me to be careful of gender issues, my apologies to your hairdresser who I assumed was a she... Sorry <P>So your role with husband is mother and mind reader? That is how I have to figure out what my husband's needs are. Trial and error. Your counselor may be right? I don't know. I think she's just out of ideas, frankly - so am I!!!! <P>Will check Rose out later this week! <P>Maybe you should take the husband in for a reprogramming - (boy am I scratching at the bottom of the barrel for this one.....)

I think the needs thing get warped when you depend too much on another person for your own emotions.<P>It also becomes warped when the basic motivation to meet another's needs is a selfish desire to have one's own needs met.<P>There is nothing wrong with doing your best and wanting your spouse to do the same, but when you expect a certain return on your "investment" you also set yourself up for disappointment. <P>If you go in with the attitude that you are going to be the best spouse you can be and still resemble yourself no matter what response you get except for of course physical or emotional abuse, and you do it out of loving service to others and pride in yourself, you have a better chance. Your own expectations are not the focal point and any relationship that one person changes in can not help but change the relationship.<P>Dazed, now don't think I'm picking on you because I think you have done a wonderful job and I think your H has a lot to learn. I'm with you on this one.

Please put yourself in my shoes. Yes, you need to be financially secure. So you try to do that by increasing your hours at work and by being diligent about getting child support from your wayward spouse. In the meantime, he wavers on whether or not he wants to come back to you. So you sit, in a plan B, trying to change things about yourself,have plastic surgery, dye your hair, etc, so that he will want you back eventually, or maybe not. How can that possibly be controlling your own life? The way I see it, you are doing everything you can for HIM, changing your bad habits, love-busting behavior, physical traits, for HIM! Who/what is controlling you? Not yourself. You are being controlled by the idea that YOU need to show him what he is missing, that YOU need to be the one to change so that he see what he is giving up. That is the reality. My feeling is that after a certain amount of time, the wayward spouse has ample opportunities to be a person of good character, (Which he/she obviously lacked by having the affair in the first place) and making the decision to right the wrong. It shouldn't matter if the spouse you are coming back to is the wicked witch of the west, wart and all. The bottom line is that we shouldn't have to DO all these things and set our lives up with "no contact" until they come to their senses. If they are not adult enough and mature enough and courageous enough, then they are not the people for us anyway. I want to move on with my life. I have been going to counseling and changing some things for ME. My ultimate goal would be that my H would decide simply that he is being an A$$ and decide to reconcile. At this point I doubt that will happen because his moral character has been undermined by the worldly notion that everything should be handed to us and that we should always be happy and if we aren't then, by golly, we should do something about it like drink, or beat our spouses or have an affair. These betrayers simply need to grow up. I know I am not the cause of his affair. The cause is some discontentment with our relationship that never got brought up, and him being too afraid to deny those feeling for OW and make the decision to work on our marriage. That takes guts and courage and a morality that these betrayers simply do not have. Yes, if he came to me tomorrow, I would reconsider reconciliation. But I will not "wait" indefinitely (in Plan B or not). If he can't make the decision when faced with these inevitable consequences, then he will never make it. I will move on with my life without him and hopefully someday, he will see what he has done and learn from it. That is my wish. I also wish that some of you would wake up from la-la land and take control and stop waiting around and basing your lives on someone else. Do what you feel is right for you. If it is right for you to stay married, the stay married, but don't let the betrayed continue to see OP while living with you! That is simply pathetic. Tell them to move out and then when things are over, the marriage can be reevaluated. If you want a divorce, the do it. Don't wait for someone to dictate your entire life. THAT is giving the control to someone else. <P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Plan A didn't work for me, I tried no love busters but w wouldn't respond. She did respond to lovebusters however.<BR>Plan B didn't work as om picked up the hotel tab and she came and went as she pleased to see the kids.<BR>I think that my w had decided she wanted out of the marriage and nothing would have worked. She has made no effort at reconciliation at all, Ive done all the work.<BR>My counselor told me that sometimes the spouse just wants out, and once they have the reason, they take it and run.<BR>I believe that these palns may work if the spouse still loves the the other spouse. But as in my case, if they want out I beleive they are gone whether its this affair or the next.