Ok, this is one long thread with thoughts on several comments and situations lately presented here...

Let me start by saying that I believe there are two kinds of men who have affairs.

There are the one's who make a singular error in judgement, realize their love and devotion, and return spiritually and otherwise to their W with full capacity for healing.

There are also the one's who simply have an inherant disrespect for women. These men will continue to disrespect their wives and marriages no matter what. Many of these men are also classic abusers.

I think that Genia, Luv, and JT are all married to abusers, and are actively being emotionally and psychologically abused.

A little background...
I have experienced two abusive relationships. The first I didn't even realize was abusive till it escalated, partly because I didn't know the "signs" and partly because I thought intelligent women like me didn't get 'abused'. WRONG!
I ended up in the second because of the damage the first had on my self worth and esteem. The second one I married.

*Stopping now to say that some of you may be thinking "Well, he never abused me BEFORE so he mustn't be an abuser".
WRONG!
I was married over two years when he first became emotionally, and then eventually physically abusive. I didn't see it coming AT ALL. Being my second marriage, I was determined not to "fail" and tried all I could, accepting more and more unacceptable behavior. I even tried reconciliation after he broke one of my arms!!

Ok, so I have a fair knowledge of this topic.

I respect the principles of MB. However, they simply can't be applied in a healthy way when dealing with an abuser. Abuse is about POWER AND CONTROL. Plan A works fine for normal people, but for the abuser, it is another way to exercise POWER AND CONTROL.

In Genia's case, her husbands blatant disregard for her feelings is ABUSE. The way he speaks to her, and the way he treats her, is ABUSE. Any inch she gives him on this will result in more POWER AND CONTROL. Normal MB ideals can't be instituted here. It MUST be about firm boundaries, even though that can be considered LBing.

Look at Jt. Her husband went into a violent rage when confronted with the loss of his POWER AND CONTROL. That is TEXTBOOK abusive behavior. I know it is common for many of us to make excuses for this behavior by attributing it to emotion, HOWEVER there is NEVER any reason for behavior like that. NO EXCUSE. Period. It may have been his first violent eruption, but it won't be his last.

When we have been emotionally abused for awhile, it becomes so much second nature that we continue to hope, and continue to make excuses. Our sense of self starts slipping away. Of course we still love them, but it isn't a healthy love.

I just really want to see these women get the help THEY need....

Hi,

I am going to counseling a Crisis Center for Domestic Abuse. She has discussed boundaries and suggested I leave the house when he is disrespectful. Problem is that would be most of the time.

No,
HE is the one who must be removed from the house.

BTW, I'm glad you're getting some help with all of this!!!!!

Hi,

When I end relationship, he will be removed. But as a strategy to try and teach him not to disrespect me, she suggested I leave for a couple hours when this occurs.

MNTB,

I totally understand your point regarding the two types of men who have affairs, and I think u are absolutely right.

This is about control, and selfishness, and having their cake and eat it too....u name it...it is. Yes, and unfortunately the BW just keeps hoping and praying that something, anything will trun them around....perhaps this is God's way of letting it be know that the BW needs to move on....BW's should not have to fight this kind of fight. If the H were a #1 type of man who realizes his mistakes, and wants to make amends, it will show by how they handle the situation....the others have to get burnt up by the fire before they realize how they participated in the destruction process of their own marriages.

God is a forgiving God, he will forgive us when we do wrong at any given moment, but sincerity is the key. You have to believe it. You have to mean it. You have to want it. These #2 type men love the game...or are so deep in it they don't see any other way. They think there is no hope, so they continue to act selfishly to satisfy THEIR needs...yes it is abusive to the BW.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Hi Gofigure,

I told husband I was getting counseling for my sadness. He said he is happy. How can he be Happy? Why can't he see he is the cause of my pain?

Go Figure,

The sad fact is that over 90% of abusers NEVER stop abusing. If one relationship ends, they will enter another and abuse in that one as well.

To stop abusing requires a fierce committment to intense psychotherapy, which of course virtually never happens with these men. For these men to truly get help, they must admit a weakness, which is something the abuser is virtually incapable of doing.
Also, unfortunately there is a shortage of proper programs and treatment plans for the abuser....

Most abuse counselors will tell you the woman/children MUST leave the relationship. On the rare occasion the abuser does seek help, reconcilliation can be discussed well into the course of treatment and therapy, and then only with serious family counseling.

I know my H is an abuser. In the past he had gotten physcial with me, he didn't get to far with that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But emotional he was great at. This changed this past May.

I have been in therapy for awhile. H refuses it. I think what changed is a) he read Xmm own words that I wasn't intrested in him anymore B) He seen other men making passes at me. I think that was a wake up call for him.

It's been 4 months since he has been verbally/emotionally abusive. We are now working together and talking more about problems.

Genia,

Don't tell his nonsenstive a-s anything else pertaining to you, and getting yourself better. It is obvious that he has no shame or remorse for all the problems he has created. He is not deserving of knowing anything more about your well-being.. Leave him in the dark for now...let him wonder what is going on with u....don't offer any comments up to him....be as happy u can be around him (even if you are not happy)...don't let him steal your joy! He is still gets a kick out of trying to control u in every way. Stop trying to talk to him...give him small talk if he asks u anything...be cordial of course...but let him know that your life does not revolve around his thoughtless drama...he is just enjoying all of this attention...Unbelievable. He wants to think that he is the key to your happiness...GENIA, he is not your source, God is....do not lose sight of this.

Hi,

I have been withdrawing from him lately to protect my sanity. Because of this he has been showing me more affection lately. Yet he still disrepects me with his mouth. I was in the counseling session and did not plan on telling him. I forgot to cut off my cell phone and he called while I was in the session. He wanted to know who I was talking to so I said I will tell you later. I told him I was getting counseling to be happier. He was OK with that. But if I had asked him the same question he would have said None of your business.

MNTB,

Oh my goodness this is so good of you to discuss. I am grateful for the topic because it allows me to see the type of man my H is. I agree with you on his type. I don't think he even realizes it. I have been dealing with this take it or leave it type of behavior for to long - all in the name of love.

But he really doesn't love me he wants to control the situation. The funny thing is he claims that I am the controlling one. Teh agressive one. I admit I handled thing badly sometimes, but he could have worked on it with me or left me. Instead he cheated on me and had a baby.

He also just expects me to accept it and deal with it. He is calling me now crying about forgiving him and not throwing it up in his face ( this mistake is what he calls it); What about the fact that he continued this affair all the while supposedly wanting his wife and kids. He left us crying everynight with out remorse because he never came home for good. Was standing by the OW/OC during this so important. He even tells me that he was handling this like a man - taking care of her, living with her!

so I agree it is not up to me to help him he must find out on his own what he had and lost. Plus I do not want to raise my kids in this type of situation. I will not accept any type of behavior from him any longer. He doesn't even want to account for his time, his money, nothing. I don't even get an explanation he wants to just come and go as he pleases.

He thinks paying a few bills, cutting grass, and eating at the table with us every once in awhile is being a good H and father. Well we need more and deserve better.

He thinks that waying he loves us is enough well it was in the past because as you stated I was making excuses for him like his background and the way he grew up on the street without a family. At some point in your life you can not keep using that same excuse. He has done to our kids just what his father did to his mother and his siblings. The only key that is missing is that he was not physically abusing me. I now think that he married me for the money and what I could provide for him, the life I and my family could give him. He has lived better than he ever has in his life since marrying me.

When I met him he was sleeping in an empty apt. on an air mattress and a tv on the floor. But I loved him and did not judge him because of that.

LOOK WHAT IT GOT ME!

JT <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

JT2,

Good for you! You sound like you are taking care of you now. That is wonderful. Sometimes we try so hard, and receive no results, so the best remedy for that is to look at yourself, look inside yourself, and do what is best for you. We do our best to help our H's, but the bottom line is, is that we can not control their actions, their thoughts, their behavior, nothing. So it is best to take care of yourself, and hopefully the goodness in your heart, and the willingness to want to live your life right will reflect upon someone else, maybe even your H, maybe not, and you will continue to grow and prosper as a human being. But we can not sit idle and wait, we have to keep doing what is best for ourselves.

Hope this helps.

while I think it's an important topic, i don't want to totally threadjack the board too much on it, because quite frankly, it isn't 'marriage building", is it?!

So i just wanted to offer that if JT, Genia, Luv, or anyone really, wants to email me for discussion or support on the topic of abuse, feel free. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
xessivebaggage@yahoo.com

MNTB,

I think it is great that u brought up the issue, because it is the truth, and it should be addressed. Why do we need to keep fooling ourselves? If it is not right, its not right. This is helping not hurting. Believe that. Yes, everyone would love to save their marriages, and end all of the chaos, but sometimes you have to realize that you are doing more harm to yourself by dealing with certain situations....or should I say allowing certain situations to happen and take precedence over your life. Marriage or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But he really doesn't love me he wants to control the situation. The funny thing is he claims that I am the controlling one. Teh agressive one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, JT,
this is also CLASSIC abuser behavior. It is referred to as "crazymaking" or emotional blackmail, and is used by the abuser to shift forcus off of his inappropriate actions/words and attempt to make YOU feel bad.
DON'T let him do this. next time, CALL HIM ON IT!

Then I would be calling him out on it all day long. Because he swears I am the reason that he went out there in the first place. He claims that my ATTITUDE was what pushed him away.

Well my response to that was if I was so bad why the heck didn't you just leave me, instead of cheating on me.

He acts like he is proud of the way he handled it sometimes. I don't see any future or productive future with him anymore I was just fooling myself all these years.

Have you known anyone like this to ever recover and return to his family totally devoted and a better person. Probably not because he does not even know that he is the problem!

JT

BTW you are helping me soooooo muchhhhh. I need you so plese don't stop now. you have given me uplifting advice just this morning.

Thanks

Actually JT, don't call him on it. Don't talk to him. Just write down the messages and hand them to your attny. He's breaking the PO by calling you. It needs to be handled legally right now, not emotionally. He's trying to goad you into a response....

Boy howdy does he ever need to grow up!

- Kimmy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you known anyone like this to ever recover and return to his family totally devoted and a better person. Probably not because he does not even know that he is the problem!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to say, no. As I said, the cycle of abuse runs so deep that it is rarely properly treated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he swears I am the reason that he went out there in the first place. He claims that my ATTITUDE was what pushed him away.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW you are helping me soooooo muchhhhh. I need you so plese don't stop now. you have given me uplifting advice just this morning.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad to help!! And like I said a few posts ago, email me anytime...
Be strong!!
Hugs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's breaking the PO by calling you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nio is right, I forgot about your PO!!!!!

Not to mention that even his current behavior is simply an attempt to regain his POWER AND CONTROL. These abusers say and do just about anything to get it back....

If I called him on it I would be shouting it all day long. I wrote a good answer to you but got booted off and it did not post. I don't remember everything I said to you but I do remember saying that you have helped me tremendously just this morning with this topic.

So pLease feel free to give me any advice or just comments I love to hear from someone other that myself because I have had so much smoke blown up my ? by my H until it is unreal!

So thank you for any tidbit you want to give me. I will email you later, Thanks

JT

Hey I just saw it DUH! it did post.

kimmy - you are so right I have not answered since we talked about it on yesterday I am just listening to his messages now. I have recorded all of them onto a micro cassette for her plus she has trancribed them into print.

The list keeps getting longer. We go to court on next Wed. for the OOP.

<small>[ August 27, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: JT2 ]</small>