Rachel:<P>I do see validity in your argument. If I was in your shoes, I'd probably be doing the same thing, right or wrong. Again, this is the problem I have with taking ANY system verbatim. Yes, the Harley stuff has worked for a lot of people. But some of us just don't have the intestinal fortitude to just Plan A it forever. And indeed, even Harley doesn't tell you to do it forever. Some people have been in Plan A for years, some months. I think the book says to do it as long as you can. Obviously, as long as you can was shorter than as long as someone else can.<P>I've been in Plan A, with complete denials of anything inappropriate, and a complete unwillingness of my H to acknowledge any legitimacy to my feelings, since March. Is our marriage better? Yes. But I am running on a love bank that is constantly scraping the bottom of the barrel. I'm pumping gas into his tank, so to speak, and in mine, the little red needle is always dangerously close to E. This is why, then his "friend" steps back into the picture, it's such a major issue. I feel as if I'm making all the effort, and it's really taking a toll.<P>The Harley stuff DOES assume that both parties are willing. Sometimes the spouse comes around, sometimes not. Rachel, if you feel this divorce is the right thing for you to do, if you need it in order to move on, if you think it will make you a better person and a better mother to your kids, then do it. Only you can say what will work for you. Your situation is horrible and unfair and everything else. And still...there's nothing to say that your H won't still come to his senses even later.<P>

Rachel;<P>Reading your post, it's clear that you don't have a clue about what plan A and Plan B are about. If you own "Surviving an Affair", you haven't done a thorough job analyzing it (and these aren't hard concepts). Harley's synopsys of these plans appeared on the website here a month and a half ago. Have you read them??? You're also clinging to a model where you see that your husband has injured you in the affair, and he's going to have to come crawling back remorseful to you before you even think about doing the work necessary for reconciliation. That's not usually the way affairs are successfully recovered from---given your situation, you will probably end in divorce. I couldn't promise you that you would have saved your marriage had you done plan A and B---but it gives you a better chance. And you've got to do the "relationship work" for your own good anyway, so you might as well do it in a context that gives your marriage a fighting chance.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but don't let the betrayed continue to see OP while living with you! That is simply pathetic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For example, I did exactly that during plan A. But is it "pathetic??" No---absolutely not. I wasn't a doormat during that time. My wife clearly understood that I did not approve of her affair. And in this time I was changing my behaviors (for both of our benefit). I never begged her to give up the OM, to work on our marriage---nothing "pathetic" there. I merely offered to work on our marriage: with or without her. I wasn't expecting to do it forever (nor would I do Plan B forever). But my "pathetic" behavior helped make the difference in saving the marriage---it was hard, because for much of the time I felt as RWD feels---my efforts were all for naught. But that's not ever true, the skills you learn through this process benefit YOU as well as your marriage. And you can take them with you, even if you divorce.<P>Let me summarize:<P>Plan A: eliminate angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, and selfish demands. Try meeting needs that you've been failing at (and that the spouse will allow). Do this for as long as you can, regardless of the state of the affair. Typical timeframe: 3-6 months.<P>Plan B: Write a letter to your spouse telling them that you love them and value the marriage, but the affair is too much to take. Highlight your new track record with good behavior (plan B). Let them know that there will be NO contact. Arrange for kids and finances, if necessary. If you do have contact, no lovebusting (but don't fill needs with that contact either). Continue working on "MarriageBuilder" behavioral changes---FOR YOUR BENEFIT. Timeframe: 6-18 months.<P>There's an important thing to realize: some marriages may not be saved through this. Some marriages are "unsavable", although you can't predict in advance (I think Steve Harley felt mine was going down the "unsavable" path).<P>BUT---should my wife and I have divorced, I still would have come out a "winner". I would have been successful. Why??? Because I had made the appropriate changes, and put forth the right effort to save the marriage. And in plan B I realized that should I end up divorced, I'd be fine---it wasn't the outcome that I wanted, but I would be fine.<P>And that is still a "success story".

Hypotheticals re: Rachael<P>Husband with OW, comes whining to Rachael when OW and H have a fight. They make up, he dumps Rachael.<P>Rachael puts the divorce on hold, and goes to 100% plan B. Rachael assumes husbands needs are to have a breast reduction. Does she do the breast reduction in plan B? (Really far reaching extreme here, stay with me, okay?) - NO. Because she is working on HER needs, not HIS. She is learning how to fulfill her needs on her own, within the context of remaining faithful to her husband and without lovebusters. What happens if she gets tired of B and husband hasn't ended his affair? She dumps H. No problem, she knows how to live her life happy with or without him. She has given herself T.I.M.E. to make sure she doesn't want him. And she is not punishing him to feel good about herself. Punishing someone should not make us feel good, should it? It should Hurt Us to punish someone we love. <P>Giving time for H to make sure that this dumb affair is what he wants over and above Rachael and their 3 kids may give the best opportunity for rebuilding the marriage.<P>It also gives Rachael time and SKILLS to move on to a happy marriage or divorce and successful relationship the second time around. She doesn't lose. She's using her brain then.<P>Plan B is no different for Rachael considering her circumstances, except that she can't lovebust or date. <P>Maybe getting "even" or punishing the husband is what Rachael thinks she needs. In either case, plan B or divorce, Rachael will struggle to learn how to meet her own needs.<P>Rachael, we are not trying to hurt you, just help you understand. I think your idea and understanding of the plans are a little cloudy.<P>We are here for you, and hope you keep on posting.

What very few of you seem to comprehend is that cheating is WRONG! It is morally, ethically and emotionally wrong and by allowing the behavior to go on while the wayward spouse knows that when he or she is "ready" to come back is simply saying, "ok, you have your fun and when you figure out that you really WANT our marriage, then I wil take you back!" NO! This is wrong. When you commit to a marriage, you commit through good and bad, not when it is convenient or happy or fun of without hardship. We are giving these spouses too much leeway. So they have their fun and they still have you waiting for them. Having the cake and eating it too. By doing Plan A while my H is living with OW, he is getting needs met by her and other needs met by me. Where is the motivation to come back to me? Why should he when he is getting what he wants on every level from 2 women? Yes, I have read SAA several times and I DO understand Plan A and Plan B. But someone needs to hold these betrayers accountable for the mistakes they have made...cheating, breaking their marriage vows in the worst way. It is not a sickness as some claim. It may be a type of addiction, but let us not let them off the hook because they are helpless victims of some horrible, brain-washing illness. That is ridiculous! Please someone hold them accountable. Do you think if I suddenly held up a convenience store because I was "addicted" to the good feelings that I got from candy that I wouldn't be put in jail? It is the same thing. They made a mistake(s) and my waiting around and using all these plans, we are saying that all will be forgiven at any time. My H needs to be remorseful for hurting me and our children. He did it, not me. I will not let him off the hook. If he wants to reconcile, I will consider it, but it won't be because he doesn't have a place to live or is simply tired of OW. He will need to have true committment and see what he has done and the lives that he has affected.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

I have been keeping up with this thread and I find it somewhat amusing. I think the point was missed. <P>We are all here because we needed support from other people going through similar situations. I think most of us agree with the Harley principles. That said - we are all individuals and no matter how similar each of our situations, they are very different. Therefore, when using the Harley principles we will tailor them to fit our individual needs and our realationships needs. Take me for example - I love my H. I place great emphasis on commitment and marriage. However, he did something completely wrong! I am willing to forgive and move on. He chose to move out. I am now seriously considering divorce - not because I want one. When he moved out 1 week ago I started gaining more and more perspective each day he was gone. I also started becoming stronger each day he was gone. I do not need him to be happy. I want him, but he has made a choice - not me. <P>With that I can tell there will be heads turning - she's not following SAA. You are right. I am doing what is best for me and for my son. If I move on I have learned so much (things to help my marriage work or things to prevent this form happening in another relationship).<P>These people who choose to destroy relationships may have good intentions. But how good are they morally? Knowing what I know about OW - I DO NOT WANT HER IN MY SONS LIFE. Anyone who can divorce H because of affair and be in the bed with a married man within 3 months - IS NOT A GOOD PERSON. <P>For all of you guys waiting month after month - I have a question for you, but I will start a new thread. I am curious. <BR><P>------------------<BR>H

A different hypothetical Re: Rachael<P>Rachael divorces H. End of story.<P>Justice is more important than saving a marriage.

Saving a marriage is of the ultimate importance. But is it the right thing to be married to someone that has so little character that he/she never really "commits" to the marriage and ends up leaving, coming back, leaving, coming back and thus tearing everyone apart over and over again, including 3 innocent children. I will not see my children abandoned again and I won't entertain reconciliation until I am sure that H has his whole heart and soul in it. At this point he doesn't. It is not about justice. It is abour protection. My job is to protect myself and my kids and that is what I am doing.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Rachael:<P>In your last post you stated:<P>"When you commit to a marriage, you commit through good and bad, not when it is convenient or happy or fun of without hardship."<P>I agree with you wholeheartedly! My question to you is: does this apply to you as well, or just to your spouse? Are you going to commit to keeping your marriage together through the good and bad? This is definitely the bad. Your H has done a very bad thing. Are you committed to him or not?<P>I understand your hurt and anger... trust me... I really do. But please realize that unforgiveness and anger are only going to hurt you. <P>Peace to you,<BR>Singer<BR>

Rachael, what do you gain in divorce, that you wouldn't get in plan B? Why is Divorce the solution? What do you see the difference is between plan B and divorce? Punishment? Justice? The ability to Date? The ability to lovebust?<P>I don't get it. I just don't. Sorry. I wish I did. I haven't understood your thinking since your husband moved out. I am truly sorry.

The difference between Plan B and divorce is moving on. With Plan B, you are essentially waiting until the spouse comes to their senses. Saying, "I will be here for you when you are done with OP." No, that does not ilicit the right kind of change in betrayer. It only convinces them that they can have their fun for a while and their spouse will still want them when it is over. Where is the morality in that? I am sorry you don't understand, but I won't be the one sitting in my rocking chair 25 years from now, STILL waiting for my H to return, having never gottne on with my life.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Oy. I started this, didn't I? <P>Rachel, I'm not sure I could do Plan B either. But I don't think that:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With Plan B, you are essentially waiting until the spouse comes to their senses. Saying, "I will be here for you when you are done with OP." No, that does not ilicit the right kind of change in betrayer. It only convinces them that they can have their fun for a while and their spouse will still want them when it is over. Where is the morality in that? I am sorry you don't understand, but I won't be the one sitting in my rocking chair 25 years from now, STILL waiting for my H to return, having never gottne on with my life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>...categorizes what Plan B is supposed to be. My understanding is that Plan B forces the wayward spouse to have ALL of his/her needs met by the OP. In theory, this should help break the fantasy. Does it always work? Probably not. But meanwhile, it also serves to distance YOU from the wayward spouse so that you are in a better emotional position to deal with the trauma of divorce, should it come to tha.<P>There are people here who have been in Plan A or Plan B for 2 or more years. If they can do it, fine. I don't think Plan B was meant to go on forever.<P>But again, it's really about "How much can you stand?" <P>Is there a certain amount of martyrdom about these plans? You betcha there is. But some of it is about short-term pain in pursuit of long-term goals -- with the understanding that there are no guarantees.<P>I've talked to women who divorced their husbands because of opposite-sex friends the husbands wouldn't give up. I haven't done that; I think that's extreme. Some people think that if she bothers me, he should give her up. And they're right. But it's up to ME to decide whether it's a big enough issue to throw away a 15-year-marriage. Right now I don't think it is.<P>

That is my point. We shouldn't have to force them to have all needs met by OP so that they can finally see the fantasy. They should have enough moral fiber to do the right thing. It is called acting like a child. A child needs to be shown the right way. Adults shouldn't. If they really need to be shown then they are probably too immature and selfish to be in a marriage anyway.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

dhj,<BR>I can certainly understand why you don't want the OW in your son's life. I don't want the OW in my kids' lives either. But how on earth will divorce accomplish keeping them out? If anything, they will feel more entitled to having a say in the kids' lives after divorce. In the state where I live, I can not prevent my H from having the kids overnight at her house, and I am not allowed to move out of state without his permission. Even if I were to move to the far end of the state, he would still be able to take them to her house frequently, because it is only about 3 hours away.

Rachel:<P>Here's a different spin. Read Distrusting's 28 keys for a successful life <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007170.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007170.html</A> .<P>Try practicing it in your marriage, and in your life.<P>

K, Although I appreciate the hyperlink, I already read that post and find that I do practice most of those things. What I am failing to comprehend is why you seem so bitter about my choice to continue with my divorce? Does it bother you that much that I might have a life of my own and be able to make decisions as a strong, assertive woman? I certainly hope that you don't treat your spouse with all this hostility. I am doing what is best for me and I happen to disagree with people who spend an obsessive amount of time trying to get their spouse to "see the light". If they refuse to see it when it is right in front of them,, then they don't deserve all the attention that comes from someone "waiting" for them. I still love my H with all my heart, but I am confident enough in my self that I don't need to be walked over incessantly and the affair thrown in my face every time I turn around. He is not getting his needs met by me, because I tried that. He refuses to admit that what he did is wrong in and of itself and not a product of my mistakes so he will have to live in his denial alone (or with OW). I won't tolerate it and neither should anyone else. We are all better people than that.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

I may be barking up the wrong tree with this comparison, but in the investment world there's a saying "never fight the tape". Basically, it says that when the trend is up, you shouldn't be shorting stocks, and when the market is tanking, you shouldn't be buying. Even if you find the most undervalued stock in the world, buying it when the market is sinking is not normally a good idea. It will probably sink further. Buying may be the right move, but the timing is wrong. Even General Electric, a great stock, sinks when the market drops.<P>A couple of points from this analogy. 1) Timing is everything. When the market is sinking is not the time to buy. When an affair is in the romantic stage is not the time to press the divorce issue. You might be "right", but you probably won't be successful. 2) Long term decisions should not be made on short-term data, especially when that data contradicts the dominant trend (in other words, if a spouse was faithful and moral for years and suddenly turns bad, it's more likely that the bad time is the aberation, not the good time). General Electric is still an excellent stock, even if it sinks in a down market. <P>Most important is this key question - which would you rather have - the joy of knowing you were right and your husband was wrong or your marriage back? Being right or being married?<P>Look, I don't think you'll find ANYONE at this site who will say that infidelity is right and the cheaters deserve respect. Similarly, no one thinks it's right or fair for the burden of work to be on the betrayed. Those of us that suffer through this do it for one specific purpose - we believe it maximizes our chances of marital recovery. We also take responsibility for our own mistakes, work on improving ourselves, and have the capacity to understand and forgive. I will also suggest that those of us who wait believe that our spouses are good people who, for whatever reason, have done a bad thing.<P>I believe the vast majority of the betrayed will opt for divorce when the betrayer refuses to end the affair. That is completely their right and I respect that decision. But those of us that choose to work it out also deserve respect.<P>

Rachel,<P>I'm not bitter at all with what you're doing. It's not what I would choose to do. And it's not the "path" that Dr. Harley would illustrate as how to successfully deal with an affair. But you're free to do what you want. To be perfectly fair, you got dragged into this as an "example" by D&C. I have more of an issue with what D&C was illustrating than what you've chosen to do.<P>However, remember that you're here at MarriageBuilders. This is a website set up to discuss and learn the MarriageBuilders principles. While other stuff goes on here, remember this is a MarriageBuilder's site. To me, at least, this is an important concept. I don't post very often at Divorcebusting... why??? Because I'm not fully a fan of those concepts. Now this isn't meant to chase you off. But I'm here solely to help those people trying to use the MarriageBuilder concepts to make a better marriage. So that's my angle... no bitterness, no personal animosity. Just a different "slant" than you have.<P>Now, what concerns me is that the path you're following is contrary to much of the MarriageBuilder's philosophy. When I see your path getting confused with "Plan A" and "Plan B" (not necessarily your doing), I'm concerned that other people here looking for information will get confused. <P>The reason I debate with you is because it appears to me that you illustrate several issues that are "common" to how the betrayed feels; behaviors that are detrimental to the recovery from an affair. Very natural---but bad news in terms of the proper action to take. In my mind, you're taking your husband's affair very personaly, you're dealing with it from a standpoint of "justice", you're being highly intolerant and inflexible, and you're putting your needs and feelings over those of your children. You're getting a divorce that you don't "truly" want, even though you're still "in love" with your husband.<P>And with this attitude, you're trying to rally everyone around "your stance" here at Marriagebuilders. And I do have a problem with that. This site is for the MarriageBuilder's principles---if you're so familiar with these concepts, why don't you clearly elucidate why they don't "work" in your case, and why they shouldn't apply to you.<P>Rachel, I wish you the very best. When you "left" the forum last time, I figured you were on the way to a quick divorce. But you're back---and your husband has shown some flickering signs of intellegent life residing in that affair-addled brain of his. I'm trying to help you give your marriage the best chance it has. I can even wholeheartedly support a case for divorce---when the time is right. But I don't see that as being right for your case.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited September 09, 1999).]

Nellie - I know divorce will not keep OW from my son. However, I like Rachel will not wait forever for my H to come home. Even if he wants to, He has to be willing to live life differently. He may not be willing to do what it is going to take to have the relationship we both want. Nice twist tho... last night H came over to see son, I was going to movie with a friend. He was real quiet and said I didn't have ot leave unless I wanted to. Then he finally started a conversation on his own. He said the intensity he shares with OW is already starting to fade. So he asks himself, what does that leave? Less than what we have. I told him he had more thinking to do - then we could talk. <P>------------------<BR>H

K, I did NOT "drag", as you call it, Rachel into this. I used her case as another example of someone else who questions the Harley methods' effectiveness.<P>At times I sound like a Harley "moonie" to my friends too, but I don't buy that everything about them works all the time. Rachel's case is another example in which a person doesn't buy them verbatim.<P>That is my ONLY purpose in mentioning Rachel's situation, NOT in "dragging" her into a dispute.

D&C:<P>Whatever---I didn't mean to imply that you did it to intentionally set up Rachel. When you used her as an example and I (and others) responded, she felt like she had to jump in. And for that (and the fact that she's been defending herself), I'm sorry. I said all that I could to Rachel months ago, and I didn't mean to involve her in another debating session. We've BTDT.<P>The "old marriage" K would educate you on the meaning of the word "drag", and clearly demonstrate that what you did was to indeed "drag" Rachel into this thread. The "new" K will just say apologize with an "I'm sorry" and a smile <P>I think it's fine to question methodology. I do it all the time---it's what I get paid for. And I think that this is what you were discussing as the original intent of the thread. But I say the methodology often works (I've done the experiment). You say that the methodology is limited. I'd ask you two questions:<P>1. Do you understand the methodology and are you applying it effectively?<P>2. Do you have a better "hypothesis" that we can test?<P>One a "less related" theme, I'm reading a couple of "communication" books and I always think of your situation with a conflict-avoiding husband. I'll post if I find anything relavant that I think will help (although I guess you've done similar homework).<P>