Reading the post from Cheerful to G123 it has been confirmed what the "oldies" have been telling us all along. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The OW doesn't care about us, our feelings, the pain, the hurt, our children, none of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am simply stating that YOU are NOTHING to an OW. If you WERE of any importance, we all wouldn't be here today having this discussion now would we? She does not care about you, so do not send her a letter. She will only find it humerous that you're still dwelling on the situation (or at least that is how it would APPEAR to her).

Ok now all of you that think maybe you should call, write, or feel quilty or sorry for your heartless, cold, uncaring OW, read it again!

And G123 thanks for having such a confidence in my "good heart" Yes it is good and yes I do forgive, but never forget the fact that these women, no matter, DO NOT CARE ABOUT US. Like we didn't know it in the first place.

My questions is if you dont care how we feel or what happens in our M why are you here? Oh thats right it is a public form and you options count for something? NOPE! You have nothing to offer but hurt, anger, and for us to loose hope that this situation, that was created by two very selfish people will ever work as adults and do what is right for the children who did not ask to be here. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES, NOT GOD! And yes the devil will use what ever, who ever, in his power to distroy us. But with God al things are possible. My prayer today for us will be that God take our enemies from us! Ask and it shall be given.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Sunny-

We didn't really need this confirmed, did we? We did know this, but just hearing an OW say how "funny" we are- just ICK- thats all. Its crazy how we are in one breath- SO GUILTY and SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF OURSELVES (the nerve of us bad BSs- the horrid non-parties to this WHOLE mess). We are accused of being GUILTY ALONG W/H of abandonment and subject to being judged for allowing this, etc. etc.. THEN in another breath we are "just the person he's married to- its not our child- we have no rights- we matter not- we are actually a joke! HA! Which one is it, anyway???!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'm glad I never called, wrote or contacted her in any way- other than when H called her once with me there. At this point, sending a letter would be next month, right after the final CS hearing and it would make sense to her in my letter, why "now".

However, the more I read- the more I think you all are right. I had nothing to do w/this mess and will deal w/whatever H wants to or does not want to- not my mess to CLEAN UP!! She deserves NO explanation of why there is NC from me, thats for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WHY would ANY of us believe these types of women care about US or OUR hurt children- shoot they obviously care very little about themselves, their reputation, their pride! Ick.

And let her laugh- she is the one who made a complete a** and a fool of HERself- not ME!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

G123, I just thought it was funny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Kinda cute actually. I didn't want to post it on your thread, so I started this one. Its strange how the Ow come here to remind us how utterly hateful, mean, and uncaring they can really be. We are here working on our M and TRYING (in some cases) to make the OC a part of our family. I'm still an advicate of the children. All of them in these situations. Contact is really a hard thing to do because of all the hatred, anger, and hurt that the ow are feeling. I'm still up in the air that my M will survive w/ contact. I still say it can be done and done in a possitive way. But there has to be three adults. And in 90% there is not. I just wondered why they come here. It is to see that we are not the horrible people or spouses made us out to be? Is it to "get to know us better" so the next time they sleep w/ a MM they know what to do? Is it to prove to their selves that most of the MM do stay in the marriage and DO actually want their M to work and YES 90% of the time because of their actions, their child grows up w/o a father? KWIM? Just wondering (not looking for any reasons from OW either). Just us BS talking!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I don't know where that reasoning comes from either. I'm not trying to give excuses or come up with answers, but who really means nothing here? She is the one with no father for her child, that has to ask someone else why he won't see his D. She can't even call him up on the phone and expect a warm reception (like so many of them).

It baffles me too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

PS, hope I didn't offend you by responding, I just really don't get it.

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: findingmywayback ]</small>

Sunny,

I have earned my status as an &#8220;oldie&#8221;&#8230;..and am also an OW. I invite you to look up my story and read my past posts. I hope you&#8217;ll see that not all people (OW) are the same and are not irretrievably bad. We all have flaws and make bad choices (some worse than others). I&#8217;ll grant you that there are some who might delight in the pain they&#8217;ve caused, and there are some that are numb to it. But, there are also those that recognize their mistakes and genuinely feel bad for the part they played in hurting another person.

OB1

P.S.
xMM and his W will be driving across the U.S. to see OC. They&#8217;re coming for Thanksgiving and will be sitting in my home, at my table, eating a feast that I prepared for them. After dinner settles and they&#8217;ve had dessert, they&#8217;ll be sleeping in my house, in OC&#8217;s room, with OC and their 2 y/o daughter. The following morning, his W and I (along with my BF) will be hitting all the after-Thanksgiving sales. The only one grumbling is BF&#8230;.we&#8217;ll be up and out the door by 5 AM, and he gets to carry the bags. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OB1, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still say it can be done and done in a possitive way. But there has to be three adults. And in 90% there is not.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know not all OW nor BS are bad people. But SOME do come here and do nothing but rub and try to hurt. Add salt to the wound kinda thing. I can only hope that the OW in my life and others here see that we as BS did nothing to ask for what we have been dealt, but we are playing w/ the cards we where given and trying to make the best of it. And I will be the first one to stand up and I'm not perfect and I am not w/o sin. I'm glad things are working out for you and your xMM and his W. You are indeed an inspiration! The 10% that are making it work for the children I think are awesome! And that is the way it needs to be. Its really not a OW verses BS thing to me its a right thing verses wrong thing to me.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Let me be the devil's advocate here... take it for what it's worth.

It is quite obvious that many MM's / WS's "compartmentalize" things,,, they separate their 2 worlds, their world with BW and their world with OW. In doing so ( and I can only speak for myself.. but I believe this may apply to many others) I guess I put myself in a compartment too... as you say a "fog".... Because she was rarely almost never mentioned, (I was told he was divorced at first, then separated, then finally figured it out...) I never even knew her NAME for a very very long time. It was even longer before I saw a photo of her. When I saw a photo it became a little more real to me and it became harder to continue in the situation. But until then... in my own mind...I had not accepted the very reality of her existence... So when cheerful says we don’t care, she is right in a way, but not in the way I think you folks are taking it. I think it is more that one feels indifference…

It is not that we wish any malice upon the BW, It is just the BW is a stranger to many of us. And furthermore, in my case, she has never really done anything to hurt me, she was innocent, so I didn’t even have hatred or anger for her.

Just as to the BW the OW is usually very much a complete stranger ( I imagine it would be an even bigger slap in the face if the OW were someone BW knew personally or had befriended in the past) except the BW upon D-Day has this complete stranger to hate, and understandably so. Sometimes though, in my personal opinion, I think MOST of that hate and anger is misdirected. I think sometimes when the BW forgives the WS she has to focus all this remaining anger on OW because she cannot forgive her H and still be mad at him…so then it becomes all OW’s fault… MM was an innocent victim who was FORCED, tricked, seduced, had to many drinks with, was drugged, raped etc… into having sex with OW…

The fact is, we ALL have choices, MM/WS CHOSE to ignore his wedding vows…repeatedly… WS is the ONLY one that has an obligation to love honor and cherish BW. Because OW can be anybody, a one-night stand, a long term relationship, a hired lay, an office fling… In other words WS/MM BETRAYED his wife. OW, being a stranger, did not betray anyone but herself… she has not taken any vows to BW. She did HURT either intentionally or unintentionally another woman by sleeping with her H and therefore causing her pain indirectly.

From a distance, I do feel bad for the pain I caused my BW… but to be honest, I don’t lose sleep over it...because she is a complete stranger to me... I can only empathize and try to understand how I would feel if I were in HER shoes... so now moving forward... I will be wise never to make these same mistakes again and therefore avoid causing others including myself any more heartache.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words WS/MM BETRAYED his wife. OW, being a stranger, did not betray anyone but herself… she has not taken any vows to BW. She did HURT either intentionally or unintentionally another woman by sleeping with her H and therefore causing her pain indirectly.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree, but that is just my way of seeing it. If you KNEW about his wife, you betrayed her even if she only a stranger and your mind thinks she doesn't exsist.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because she was rarely almost never mentioned, (I was told he was divorced at first, then separated, then finally figured it out...) I never even knew her NAME for a very very long time. It was even longer before I saw a photo of her. When I saw a photo it became a little more real to me and it became harder to continue in the situation. But until then... in my own mind...I had not accepted the very reality of her existence... So when cheerful says we don’t care, she is right in a way, but not in the way I think you folks are taking it. I think it is more that one feels indifference…
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See you knew he was married and continued the relationship, looks like reading your words, for a very, very,long time. Did you not think this would hurt her? Yes her husband is to blame also, but so are OW. Someone has to be the better of the three. And MOST of the time the BS has no idea that people are disrespecting her behind her back. And when these OC show up in our lives WE as BS are always expected to be the BETTER of the three! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> We all have choices and some make better ones than others and YES we all make mistakes and some learn from them, some dont.
Everyone is accountable for their actions, not by me or anyone else here on earth, from someone greater. And its what you do after your mistakes that matter. And no matter one night stand, long term relationship, BS got slapped in the face either way you go! By two people who just didn't care who they hurt w/being selfish.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

fact is, we ALL have choices, MM/WS CHOSE to ignore his wedding vows…repeatedly… WS is the ONLY one that has an obligation to love honor and cherish BW. Because OW can be anybody, a one-night stand, a long term relationship, a hired lay, an office fling… In other words WS/MM BETRAYED his wife. OW, being a stranger, did not betray anyone but herself… she has not taken any vows to BW. She did HURT either intentionally or unintentionally another woman by sleeping with her H and therefore causing her pain indirectly.

I am so sick and tired of hearing that OW didn't betray anybody. Listen - this is how "life" works for those that are in the "norm". Years 15 - 25 are learning years. You do "stupid" things and make poor choices that sometimes affect your entire life. You don't have the life experience at that time to realize the choices you make are poor. About years 25 - 30, you're still making a few poor choices, but have realized there are consequences to choices, you gain respect for others and self-respect. IMO - if you haven't learned those things by the time you're 30 - the poor choices you have made up until that time are now part of your behavior for life and you have very little chance of really changing.

I realize there are OW on here who are still in those "learning" years (for lack of a better term), but many of them are not. Bottom line is most OW have NO SELF-RESPECT and NO RESPECT for others. That's really what it boils down to. You, OW made the choice to spread legs for a MM in the hopes of "snagging" that MM. Which again -I say tells the story - NO SELF-RESPECT. If you had it, you wouldn't be spreading legs.

I get such a kick out of the OW who claim no responsibility for their self serving, destructive behavior!!

Lets chat compartments shall we? For all the "poor me" the ow cry about and the "poor oc" they wail about lets turn it all around. The ow/oc are in a compartment. Removed from who really matters. The wife and the children of the marriage. Does the oc matter? Sure, but in his/her compartment. ie the child support compartment. So when they are spouting how the BW wasn't thought of or talked about (indifferent) the same goes for ow/oc. You are not thought of and when thought of, is with indifference. Just a bill to be paid. The cold hard truth is you are a mistake. You are thought of with cold detachment. You represent a man at his worst. You are a symbol of shame and embarrassment.

So while your resentment simmers towards a wife who has done nothing wrong to you, understand that you are in a "garbage" compartment. We ALL dated that person who later we go "what was I thinking?" and then we shudder. An ow is that times 10. Your MM is not a coward, or ball-less, or heartless cause he is with his family. Hardly. He owes you nothing. If a child is born out of the affair, he owes the child financial support to keep said child off the welfare roles. But other then that, he already has his life and the main compartment in which he lives. The ow/oc are off to the side, in a box of shame and horror.

So while you may feel ow owe nothing to the bw, or take no responsiblity for the damage to others, so too are they able to owe you noting and need to take no responsibility for the damage done to the oc. An oc that the ow chooses to have, keep and raise, KNOWING that the father will not be available, does not want to be available and does not have to be available can blame dear old ow/mom for the stigma.

So go ahead, take no responsibility for the damage you inflict on others. Just remember this. If you watch a freind get drunk and drive KNOWING that driver is impared and you do nothing and he hurts/kills someone, are you liable? No. But did you have a responsibility to the rest of society to not let him drive? When you are asked "why didn't you call a cab or take his keys?" are you going to say "it wasn't my responsiblity to do so? Not my problem?"......

Pretty much sums up the whole selfish thought process of OW. THink only of themselves, with no thought or care to anyone else.

Very, very well said Lynn

Lets also look at the marriage compartment shall we?

The marriage compartment is a big one. It comes with much much more then flowerly words of love and passion filled moments. It comes with care and comfort...you know ACTIONS of love and concern. Things like insurance if the wife or children get sick. Holidays with extended families to set firm foundations of love and well being. It is daddy up at 2:00am with a child throwing up, concerned, while mom cleans up the mess. They both show care and comfort to the child. It is having your husband hold you while you cry when a loved one turns ill or departs. Or when you get that long worked for promotion it is he who takes you out for the celebratory dinner and you reminice about the road you took to get there. It is when your car breaks down and he takes you car shopping cause he wants his wife safe on the road, so he sacrifices financially so his family is riding in the care and comfort of a save vehicle. Or the family trip to Disney World, wanting the children to have great memories. And those of us who have been to DW, know that it is also a romantic place for adults also. Marriage is sharing a life, creating a family and tending to the details of day to day life. It is also going through rough times, affairs, disease, car accidents, death of parents, loss of jobs. All are traumatic, hurtfull and painfull. But guess what? The two persevere. The love is still there. The commitment is still there. Everyone makes poor choices (affair, gambling, credit card debt) or has bad luck (loss of job, home fires, etc) But through it all, the marriage can and will and does survive. The love remains. And you can bet your bottom dollar that when a man is caught in an affair and he does not want to lose his wife, he is begging and pleading and doing everything he can think of to show her how much he loves her and how sorry he is for what he has done. He is holding her crying body in his arms late at night, stroking her hair, kissing her and his tears are falling on her cheek as the realization of what he has done and who he has hurt comes full force. He is going to to anything he can to make it up to her. He is going to do what he can to lessen the hurt. He is, at that time FIGHTING to keep HER. Trust me, no wife is begging to keep a cheater. But overall, the compartment of marriage is much much more then sex and romance. It is a lifetime of good and bad. Years of joy and sorrow, all shared. The compartment the ow stays in, is far off to the side, next to the I tried pot as a teen box, or the gambling addiction box, or whatever wrongs humans are capeable of making and moving on from. What remains the same is the huge compartment of life, and what matters. And that is marriage, kids, and family. When we near the end of our lives, we don't dwell on the little things (posessions, ow, jobs) we remember the good, the best of our lives. The family. Afterall, that is what matters. That is a pretty big compartment, afterall, it is the only one that matters in the end.

Hmm....
Well, I don't exactly know what I want to say about this thread, but I want to say something.

While I may have a different delivery method, what Cheerful said isn't off base in some ways. What I mean is, you all know that over and over it is said here that the OW/OC have no place in the BW's life, and therefore mean nothing. Well I suppose the same can be said of the OWs feeling toward the marriage. Not during, but after. I don't give them a thought. They are not in my life, they are not in my son's life. Do I mean that in an angry way? No. Of course not. It is simply that they do not enter my mind in my daily life.
It is true that this woman is nothing to me other than the wife of my child's father. Do I feel animosity to her? Not one bit. Not ever. Do I feel anything toward her? Nope, not really.
Of course, my situation being what it is, I feel no sense of "guilt" toward her, nor do I feel I owe her any type of apology. She is a victim, my child is a victim, her child is a victim, and I am a victim.
I am happy her husband is not in my life, and I am happy he's not in my child's.

Keep in mind though, that I'm not talking about any type of "typical" OW situation, so essentially, my opinion can't be viewed in that way....

Oh well, just my 2 cents.

Exactly.

I never said the OW "Hates" the BW or that the "BW is a "Bad" person. Just that (in my case) I could care less about the BW. I'm sure she could care less about me. As we can see by OB1's post, that is NOT always the case.

In my situation (and I think most), I'm sure the feeling is mutual, so WHY is it so terrible to ADMIT it? It's apparent that you all don't hold any feelings for the OW (other than vile disgust). Who cares. Just admit it. You're not a bad person for NOT caring about someone.

If anything, the BW should hate the OW (it's warranted). I have NO REASON to hate her though. She did nothing to me. In the same respect, I did not betray HER, her H did (it just happend to be WITH ME). We could argue that until we are all blue in the face. How could I betray someone that I NEVER PROMISED to love, honor and obey? How is that betrayal to the W on MY part? That's H's betrayal. She wasn't my "friend", I didn't (and still don't) know her. If she were my friend, then yes, I would consider that betrayal. (But again, that's just MY opinion, not the opinion of all OW)

Regardless, I (personally) just DON'T CARE about her; same as many of the BS's here DON'T CARE one ounce about the OW. Why should you???

OK.

I was SIMPLY answering a question asked of OW opinions regarding a letter to be written to an OW. I gave my opinion. That was that.

I'll leave you all alone now to get back to your Marriage Building.

Please don't ask for OW opinions if you don't want to hear it.

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

"I am so sick and tired of hearing that OW didn't betray anybody. Listen - this is how "life" works for those that are in the "norm". Years 15 - 25 are learning years. You do "stupid" things and make poor choices that sometimes affect your entire life. You don't have the life experience at that time to realize the choices you make are poor. About years 25 - 30, you're still making a few poor choices, but have realized there are consequences to choices, you gain respect for others and self-respect. IMO - if you haven't learned those things by the time you're 30 - the poor choices you have made up until that time are now part of your behavior for life and you have very little chance of really changing.

Would that NOT apply to just about everyone including MM, not just the ow????? Just wondering............ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meNtheboyz:
<strong> Hmm....
Well, I don't exactly know what I want to say about this thread, but I want to say something.

While I may have a different delivery method, what Cheerful said isn't off base in some ways. What I mean is, you all know that over and over it is said here that the OW/OC have no place in the BW's life, and therefore mean nothing. Well I suppose the same can be said of the OWs feeling toward the marriage. Not during, but after. I don't give them a thought. They are not in my life, they are not in my son's life. Do I mean that in an angry way? No. Of course not. It is simply that they do not enter my mind in my daily life.
It is true that this woman is nothing to me other than the wife of my child's father. Do I feel animosity to her? Not one bit. Not ever. Do I feel anything toward her? Nope, not really.
Of course, my situation being what it is, I feel no sense of "guilt" toward her, nor do I feel I owe her any type of apology. She is a victim, my child is a victim, her child is a victim, and I am a victim.
I am happy her husband is not in my life, and I am happy he's not in my child's.

Keep in mind though, that I'm not talking about any type of "typical" OW situation, so essentially, my opinion can't be viewed in that way....

Oh well, just my 2 cents. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY... I think you said what I meant to say but your post actually made sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> "I am so sick and tired of hearing that OW didn't betray anybody. Listen - this is how "life" works for those that are in the "norm". Years 15 - 25 are learning years. You do "stupid" things and make poor choices that sometimes affect your entire life. You don't have the life experience at that time to realize the choices you make are poor. About years 25 - 30, you're still making a few poor choices, but have realized there are consequences to choices, you gain respect for others and self-respect. IMO - if you haven't learned those things by the time you're 30 - the poor choices you have made up until that time are now part of your behavior for life and you have very little chance of really changing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So does that mean that if MM/WS at the age of 40 is lying and cheating to multiple women that there is a no chance of him changing? that it is part of his character? Your words, not mine... not trying to be rude, i am just saying it works both ways. I actually agree with you here. i certainly hope I am over the hump when it comes to my own personal stupidity in life.

I KNOW xMM was the biggest mistake of my life... the "what was I thinking" compartment... I think many of us xOW's feel that way.
As far as being in a "garbage compartment" Fortunately he is doing right by our daughter providing life & Health Insurance, ...etc... but I know my case is the exception to the rule.

Ah, that wasn't me, but no biggie.

Bottom line is ow, by their very nature, are self serving ***** who have little respect for anyone but themselves. They pontificate how they don't owe this or that, they use their plaitive wails on how they are a victim and drone on and on, never realizing how pathethic they are to observers. How they refuse to admit to themselves how THEIR choices cause pain to them and others. CAUSE THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES. Virtually every post on here proves it.

They talk and whine about how the father abandons the oc and are shocked that he would do so, or of course the old ow stand-by as him being ball-less, coward, etc. Once again, not facing the cold fact that he was never available in the first place and that if he CHOSES to turn his back and focus on his family, that is right and actually none of their business.

OW are not worth a single thought, she isn't worth the time.

Actually our OW has been calling and begging for us to have the leins against her dropped so she can sell her house. I don't even dignify her plea with a response. SHE is paying the piper for her actions. Not my problem. She isn't worth the effort.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

It's ovious OW have very little morals or sence of right and wrong because if they did , they would have done the RIGHT THING AND SENT XMM "AWAY" AS SOON AS THEY DISCOVERD THEY ARE MARRIED!!!! Therefore they cease being any form of "victim" when they continue the affair after they have knowledge of the MARRIAGE and choose to continue any way!

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: angels1966 ]</small>

I agree that some OW are kidding themselves if they believe they are a victim in an A but I fully believe that the MM knows what was right and what was wrong and did it anyway. WHO the OW is doesn't really matter and they are nothing special in my opinion. IF a person wants to cheat, they will. Period and they'll always find a willing participant out there somewhere. I hated/blamed/wanted to kill my OW on D-day but I've learned it wasn't about HER, its about HIM. His issues! Sometimes the OW are just a tool a man USES incorrectly to fix a problem. Like using a shoe to hammer a nail in the wall, it'll work but not as well.

Gwenie

p.s. Lynn- I think its great that these lady have a powerhouse like you posting here.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Gwenieinabottle ]</small>