I didn't want to TJ another Thread but this really caught my attention you said

"Of course, my situation being what it is, I feel no sense of "guilt" toward her, nor do I feel I owe her any type of apology. She is a victim, my child is a victim, her child is a victim, and I am a victim."

I can't remember your situation so forgive me if this is a moo (Joey/Friends) point. But how is an OW that knows the man is married a victim? I've heard it said by OW repeatedly that unless the MM was raped, he was not tricked or a "victim" of the evil OW. Would that apply in reverse? Unless you NEVER knew your MM was married, had a R with him and a child, THEN I could see you being a victim of a very good liar. I don't personally care about my OW (now, not always the case) any more than she cared about me but I will never see her as a victim in this situation. ALL the children and the Betrayed Spouses are a victim of the action of the A. Just want to ask and I'm open to hear the OW side of this. Thanks

Edit to say that I don't think there is ANY excuse for having an A, its a personal/personality choice for that OP/MP. Millions of people are faithful and monogamous, Millions of people aren't. My point is the BS is a victim of the A but needs to be held resposible for their own part of the marriage contract. So if your H expresses to you his need for more/different sex and you ignore it or if he tells you he is unhappy or you let your M slip into the abyss of "normalcy" and don't communicate/talk/enjoy each other, PLEASE take your share in the M breakdown and fix it together. I sense this from a lot of women here.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Gwenieinabottle ]</small>

I think you meant that question for me....

As many people here know, I was sexually assaulted by a MM I was friends with. We were not having an affair of any kind.

For many reasons, I allow most people to think we were. I did not report him. I assumed my pregnancy was the result of my long term relationship with my then fiance.

I don't really consider myself an OW, but in the eyes of society I am ( and that was my own choice), and I still face many of the issues OWs do.

GREATLY APOLOGIZE THEN! Didn't remember your situation. But I wouldn't look at you as an OW either, why do you consider yourself an OW, if I can ask. You were a victim of an assult not a willing particapant in an A. I don't mean to pry into your life.
I have heard other OW say that were a victim of the MM too who were not assulted but can't understand that thinking.

Gwenie

I don't consider myself a victim. I do think my child is. I have never consider myself a victim. I can say this without a whole explantion because most bs just don't get it as there are things that a ow just can't get from the bs. ONCE I was out of the affair, I COULD NOT BELIEVE I WAS EVEN IN IT. That I did that. It was against everything I had ever believed in. I was betrayed several times in the past as well. But it happened. All I can do is learn from my huge mistakes and get on with my life and try and be the best person/mother I can be. I'm far from being a whore, and I hold my own. I have taken responsibilty for my actions. In more ways than one. I have a precious little girl. She is a happy baby and is very loved by all who meets her. I am so sorry about people that got hurt...but I can't imagine my life without my daughter. NO I am not a victim........Never thought so and never said I was. I don't really think to many ow do say that. I think they say there oc are. Just with what I've seen though.
edited to add: My daughter will NOT grow up knowing that I think she is a victim. I can't do that to her.....We have to handle what life brings us and make the best of it.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

I appreciate both your replies. And I agree that ALL the children in these situation are innocent victims. I don't care what happens to my OW but I do think about my OC and hope she is well adjusted and happy. I understand and know why H has choosen NC but I know that if I had a child out there myself, I do not think I could do NC but maybe thats just a woman/Mom thing.

Gwenie

someone mentioned elsewhere that one thing we do have in common is that we were all lied to by someone we loved and trusted. there were many red flags all along but I chose to ignore them because I did not want to believe it was all a lie, again, my choice, therefore not a victim. When you love someone you want to believe what they tell you is the truth. the biggest lesson I learned in all of this, is NEVER to ignore that little voice in my head that says "RUN!!!" I ignored my own intuition... when all along it was right on the money. I will never doubt my own intuition again... it is a very powerful gift we as women have.

I was going to post a new topic but then I read this and I think it fight fit...

Do I consider myself a victim....no...I knowinly got involved with him...and I knowingly put my trust in him, and he lied to me.

What I was going to post was this...when the fog finally lifts...how do you go about getting over the horror of the situation you have put yourself into. I don't think the BS can answer this cause they didn't knowingly do it to themselves but I am wondering how the Ws's recover from the horror that they created. After the fog is all gone and the realization sets in...I seem to be stuck there and don't know how to put it all behind me. No excuses for what I did...I just want to know how to go on...try to lead some sort of normal life...if I can even remmeber what that is.

Victim of myself and my own behaviour....yes.

Twiglight, I think I remember you!

I am glad to see that you do realize that it was your own actions that created the mess (along with MM). That is 1/2 the battle towards healing.

My husband was mortified at all that had happened. He was on the verge of losing everything, I had Divorce papers drawn up immediately and he was out. I told him to go live with ow, etc. Yada yada yada. But you know what? He fought hard to stay. And no, it wasn't money, or the kids. No wife is that stupid and weak. So don't ever buy that excuse. He fought by actions. He took it all. The full brunt of my anger. It would have been a heck of a lot easier to just leave. But he stuck it out. When oc was born, he did everything he said he would do. THIS family came first. OUR child came first. He did not/never has seen or meet oc. I said from the beginning, I would not have anything to do with him, oc or ow. He agreed.

My advice to you? Stop obsessing over the EMR/MM, etc. Move on. Forget about it. Raise your child. Enjoy lunch with coworkers. Go to a movie with friends. LIVE YOUR LIFE. Enjoy it. Bake cookies. Get your hair done. Do everything for you and yours. Forget about the past. It is done and over. You do not want to end up a bitter woman, alone in the world. Heck no. He has chosen his wife. So pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Put your makeup on, put a smile on your face and get out there and live your life. This is what I tell BW too. The affair/oc is a speedbump in life. For you, your emr is just a speedbump. Enjoy your child!
You will have all the holidays, and school plays and sleepovers, etc. to look forward to. Why color that with bitterness? Why sit and moan about the father who isn't around? Make the best of your life!

Next time anger rises in your head, go for a walk. DECIDE not to obsess about it. Instead of looking at the past with regret, look to the future with hope.

Now, to forgive yourself. How do you? YOU DECIDE TO. There is not magic word or thought of feeling or thing that will create self forgiveness. This was one of the hardest things my husband had to work out within himself. He hated himself, he was full of shame and anger at what he had done. The people that were hurt. This took a long long time. What helped him were us. His family. By loving him, we showed that he was worth forgiveness. You too can do the same. Do your children love you? Do they smile when you walk in the door? Do they like to cuddle with you and watch movies together on rainey nights? Whatever is your family thing, soak it all in. Enjoy it for what it is....your family.

When you choose to leave the past in the past, and focus on those you love, and live each day to it's fullest, you will forgive yourself. If you stay mired in the misery and stuck in the past, it will eat you up and leave you bitter. Don't let this do that to you. This is NOT a life ending event. It is just one of many events that make up a life. Go and live yours and life/love and move on and be happy.

twilight, I am sorry that this is still affecting you negatively & I have seen the struggles you have written about on the other board.

I have a good friend who is a FOW (trying to offer some hope here), she got involved w/ a mm she KNEW she should not have & a drunken ONS (i think) later..here she is pg w/ OC.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Talk about a wake up call--like it always is! They kinda started dating after that. She started to go back to church & then talk about SERIOUS wake up call. She told him he needed to go back to his W. They should have never been together ect.

Well, she straightened her life out, resigned to the fact that SHe made this huge mistake but was going to live w/ whatever came along & raise her daughter alone. XMM went on to abandon his W & their child as well as never seeing this OC. No big deal, FOW was prepared for the worst. SHe welcomed him wanting to be involved if he ever did which turned out to be seeing 'his' OC 2 or 3 times in OC 4 years of life. He was the type who wouldn't even contribute financially for the tiny bit she was asking for (to pay for diapers) so the courts handled it & oh....he was paying for lots more than diapers after that PLUS his xw alimony & CS!

She said it was hard to forgive her self for this mess she brought OC into.

BUT now.........the happy ending begins. She knew this great guy from church....eventually he felt it was the right time to start dating her (he had deliberated for months). She had dated a couple (or maybe just one) & learned quite a bit from those experiences--they weren't right for her. But this one......seemed perfect.

Too perfect----since she was obviously 'flawed', how could he love her for who she REALLY was?...she was afraid to tell him of her 'sordid' past but felt he had to know, had a right to know, who she was REALLY was!

Well, they are VERY happy newlyweds expecting TWINS now!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He was the perfect one for her, he loved her for who she IS & even who she USED to be! THAT is true love, I think.

True loves waits for everyone I think. Sometimes we just get lost along the path.

Hang in there.

*** I wrote most of the following post, including the opening paragraph yesterday, and was starting it as a new thread, because I thought Twilight's comments and questions might get buried. My computer was doing goofy things 1/2 way into my post, so I hurried up and copy/pasted onto an email to myself, so I could get back to it at a later time. I come back today, and couldn't believe my eyes, when I saw Lynn's opening sentiments were almost the same as mine. Kinda spooky--kinda cool too! Oh, and since Lynn and Kt found Twilight's comments--no need to begin a new thread. ***

Twilight~

First, let me say, you have come a long way in that you are accepting responsibility for your actions. You're not saying things like, "it just happened", "s**t happens", "it's all his fault", "he was the one that betrayed his vows" etc. You should be commended for recognizing your role in doing this to yourself. This realization, in and of itself will help in the process of forgiving yourself, and getting past it.

You ask, "how do I go on"? Twilight, I believe you won't be able to get past it, put it behind you until you've sought forgiveness from God. Have you done that? He is right there, waiting for you to do it. He will forgive--He already has, but you need to do your part in asking. I also believe you need to seek forgiveness from the BW. (Take a deep breath here), and yes, the x-mm, and even your stbxh too. It doesn't mean they will forgive, but you still need to do YOUR part. You need to be genuine, and contrite when asking them for forgiveness. Your sincere apology should hold no conditions.

I honestly believe, when you humble yourself, repent, and seek forgiveness from God, and from those you've hurt, that forgiveness for yourself will begin to come.

Hanging on to what you've done will only serve to keep you stuck. God doesn't want that for you, or for anyone. In a way, I believe staying in one place such as that, is a sin. It's not acknowledging the greatness of God, and his ability to wash away EVERY single sin. The enemy will also delight in you staying in the pain and spinning in circles--not being productive. Plus, I happen to believe by not putting it all behind you, it may leave you vulnerable to repeat similar sins, in that you may think you're no better.

Twilight, this is a difficult thing for me too. Sometimes I feel stuck in the past, and find myself unable to get over the horror of what I did. Soooo much regret. Yet, I know God has forgiven me. I know staying stuck, prevents me from living a fruitful life.

It has been a most humbling experience to have my H forgive me and see him accept all that he has. He has also been a true inspiration and teacher, in what it means to fogive. If he can forgive me, If God can forgive me, who am I not to forgive myself? Still--it is so hard. We have all the horrific pictures in our head, don't we? I truly believe it's satan who likes to bring the grim reminders back all the time, and pound us in the ground, keeping us stuck. Once God forgives, He doesn't continue to throw it in our face.

Twilight, did you see the "Passion of the Christ" last spring? The flashback scene of Mary Magdeline, humbling herself at Jesus's feet was so striking to me. Remember she was in all her fancy-schwancy finery, dangly, gold jewelry, and make-up? She was a different woman outwardly as well as the inside until she repented and Jesus forgave her freely. After she humbled herself and repented of her sin, he simply told her to go and sin no more. That's what she did, and they became friends too! The visual that the film portrayed in how she looked on the outside whilst still committing adultery, and then what her outward appearance was, once she was living a clean life, was such a stark contrast, and I think a good analogy to what we're like on the inside while in sin, and what we're like on the inside once we've sought forgiveness, and received it.

Don't let what you did, and who you were for a time, define you. It is what and who you are today that matters. Learn from what you did, remember what you did, but not for the sake of "hanging on to it", but rather so you don't ever go there, nor be that person again. Also, so you have something positive to give back to others, from your own experiences. Wouldn't it be awesome to be able to help someone, someday who may make the same choices you did once upon a time? Give them real guidance, rather than "woe is me"?

Twilight, you and the world may view you and what you did as unworthy of forgiveness, but God sees things so much differently! Ask for it, receive it, and I just know things will begin to look better for you!

Warmest regards,
~autumnday

PS. Another thing that might help you, (and because I know you like to read), is the book "Redeeming Love" by Francine Rivers. It is a fictional novel, but based on the book of Hosea. It takes place in CA during the goldrush days. Unbelievable story of unconditional love and forgiveness. You will be gripped by the first pages, when the story of an OC unfolds--but that is just the beginning!!

Lynn,
Good advice.

I'm impressed by your post (considering the posts of yours that I have read over the last year). No offense or anything. It really was good advice.

I take no offense in people disagreeing with whatever I have said!

Twilight was not blaming the wife, the XMM, or calling herself a victim. She has woken up to the choices she has made and is hurting. Just as the XMM may have woken up and realized what he has done, so too has she.

She deserves no less.