Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Please read, and discuss...

link to affairs resulting in pregnancy

Pep

Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,430
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,430
This was good idea Pepper. Boosting to top.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,383
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,383
Okay, I like this. I'll take a stab at it.

I'll start with POJA.

You know what I love about POJA?

There are so many decisions to be made between the H & W in a situation of OC from adultery. Many of the decisions, when looked at from an outside observer might appear so simple, so cut and dry, so obvious. Some will say, "If you know what's good for you, you should get a D", others will say, "Hey, you better go for NC w/ OC, or you'll regret it forever", while others will say, "You should have C w/ OC, or you'll regret it forever, child will only have one parent...", and on and on it goes. A couple will hear lots of advice, and lots of varying opinions, depending on the POV of those dispensing the advice and opinions. The answers seem so simple for outsiders to give, don't they? However, for the couple actually experiencing the situation, the decisions most times are not so simple at all. Harley agrees there are no simple answers, thus the necessity for POJA, as it gives the couple direction.

I love that in POJA, each spouse explains what they think the answer should be, but always in a way that is respectful to the other spouse.

I love that in POJA, each spouse continues to give their individual ideas/solutions/answers, UNTIL they both come to one that each spouse can get on board with.

I love that in POJA, the couple is working together . They're communicating with one another. They're solving things together .

IMO, POJA doesn't necessarily equal compromising. Not in the sense, that sometimes when one compromises, that person is conceding to something that might go against their beliefs, or perhaps, only doing it to please the other, etc. If done correctly and respectfully, in the end, no one is compromising. Or maybe you could look at this way, (because compromising has other definitions than the afore mentioned one)--in the end, BOTH may be compromising their initial thoughts on the matter, because they might've come up with a totally different solution then either one thought of in the first place! Both should be happy though, both should be in agreement. No one should feel slighted or disrespected.

Another thing about POJA is that it is a tool for the couple to use. If the M is their number one concern, neither spouse should be swayed by opinions of outsiders. I'm not saying that outside advice isn't helpful, but when push comes to shove, it is the couple in the situation. It is their life, and their M that will be affected by their decisions. And before anyone gets hot under the collar--yes, I know the couple's decisions have an impact on others as well. Sometimes that impact may be positive, sometimes negative, depending on your POV. My greater point though, is that it is the couple that needs to make the decisions, for good or bad. It's their marriage.

~autumnday

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Originally posted by autumnday:

I love that in POJA, each spouse explains what they think the answer should be, but always in a way that is respectful to the other spouse.

YES!

I love that in POJA, each spouse continues to give their individual ideas/solutions/answers, UNTIL they both come to one that each spouse can get on board with.

YES!

Both should be happy though, both should be in agreement. No one should feel slighted or disrespected.

This is sooooo valuable ---> The POJA tool means you are NOT allowed to agree to anything you do not fully support! If you do, you are the one who is not meeting your POJA responsibility.

If we, as the BS, get "talked into" or "bullied" into a POJA agreement .... is is our own fault for not keeping our end of the agreement to hold out for a solution we can enthusiastically support.

It puts a stop to us giving in to our own weakness of perhaps being a "people pleaser" .... a person who needs to capitulate her integrity in order to please or be liked.


POJA means standing up for what we believe is right, at the same time, agreeing not to steamroll over what the spouse believes is right.

Negotiation skills should be taught in schools!

Pep

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,383
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,383
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The POJA tool means you are NOT allowed to agree to anything you do not fully support! If you do, you are the one who is not meeting your POJA responsibility.

If we, as the BS, get "talked into" or "bullied" into a POJA agreement .... is is our own fault for not keeping our end of the agreement to hold out for a solution we can enthusiastically support.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES, YES, YES!!! We cannot blame the other spouse, if we "gave in" of our own volition. May I also respectfully submit, the same holds true for the WS as well? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It puts a stop to us giving in to our own weakness of perhaps being a "people pleaser" .... a person who needs to capitulate her integrity in order to please or be liked.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, because POJA protects both spouses. It also protects ourselves, from ourselves, if followed correctly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> POJA means standing up for what we believe is right, at the same time, agreeing not to steamroll over what the spouse believes is right.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly--and just because an idea is what one believes is right, it doesn't mean the other spouse will agree. The key is, to submit our ideas respectfully, listen to our spouse's ideas respectfully and work till each can agree to what is right for both!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Negotiation skills should be taught in schools!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Couldn't agree more! Along with a whole host of common, everyday life skills.

Now let me ask you this--is there a particular amount of time you think a couple should POJA an issue? I know the obvious answer is, till an agreement is reached. But I mean, if no agreement appears to be on the horizon, at what point do you think the issue should be "tabled" for awhile?

~ad

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 778
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 778
This is the most positive, uplifting post I have read anywhere in a long time.

Being a long way from dday, I can really and truly tell everyone that they will be ok. Really be ok with everything. We didn't have MB or POJA to utilize back then. We muddled through with support from friends and family. Reading the POJA is absolutely a must!

This is also a must read/must know for all newlyweds too.

I think that to many times we see people trying to be the peacemaker only to come back with bitterness later. Hence the importance of the POJA and being honest with yourself first. I swear it took me a long time to be honest with myself and get off the "I'm going to divorce" bandwagon that I jumped on immediately learning of the affair. I was at an attorneys office the next day, filling out the paperwork, getting locks changed on the house, etc. I was running on pure emotion. Had we had a tool such as MB to utilize things could have gone smoother in the early days. I know that I was demanding, *****y and downright selfish. I put him through hoops to the point of cruelty. Time does heal wounds and so does talking and support. However, the POJA is such a great tool not only for adultery and oc, but for lots of things.

The marriage is the root of the family. Family is the only thing that ultimately matters in the end. So, keeping a marriage open and honest means healthy and thriving, no matter what it is asked to endure. Respecting each others feelings and wishes and needs is not as easy as it sounds when you are dealing with the issue of affairs and especially with oc. It is vital that one be honest with themselves first. Really brutally honest. Or what is the point?

I love the POJA and think it is vital to any couple from picking out a house, to inlaw issues, raising children, etc. I love that it supports and reinforces the team aspect of marriage.

Excellent post.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Originally posted by autumnday:

Now let me ask you this--is there a particular amount of time you think a couple should POJA an issue? I know the obvious answer is, till an agreement is reached. But I mean, if no agreement appears to be on the horizon, at what point do you think the issue should be "tabled" for awhile?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well for me personally, I think the time to put the issue "away" for a bit is when I feel like I want to clobber him or say "Dummy, can't you see I am right?"

I think personality issues and experience play a part of when to put it aside for the night.

Sometimes I just need to say my piece, and then I might negotiate a huge chunk of my "solution" away, coz it was most important for me to be heard.

I think it depends on how passionate I might be on a particular issue.

Sometimes the solution should not be agreed upon until more data is known ... especially OC issues.... I read that often too much is "given away" before any data is acquired ... there should be a time out for "fact-finding" before something like this is negotiated.

Also, I think temporary solutions are sometimes appropriate. ---> "Try this solution for this amount of time, and if it is not working out to both our satisfaction, then we re-negotiate."

What about you?

Pep

<small>[ October 07, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Originally posted by LynnG:
Hence the importance of the POJA and being honest with yourself first.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!

And being in an emotionally stable place first as well.

Too many BS's try and negotiate whilst their heart-wound is still hemorrhaging.

Become emotionally stable and well informed first and then POJA a solution with your spouse.

Pep

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Anyone else care to weigh in on POJA discussion?

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
Well, me and H never put anything into per say writing. But we have spent alot of time w/ what I call voodoo talks where we discuss what as a family we are doing in this situation. What he want and expects and what I expect and my wants and fears, feeling. I think that is the most important thing in a M is to talk and to tell one another what is bothering you and what you LOVE about the M and that person. People so much let things bottle up and explode. I am the first to admit I did. I still kind of fizz up, but not as bad. But the pjoa can not be all give and all take on one side. Its equal and fair for everyone.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> SUNNY D

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
about things being 'tabled' for awhile.....

Here is an example of POJA that had nothing to do w/ A/OC & years before I ever knew about MB.

When it was getting time for our oldest to start school----I found 'homeschooling' & thought it was the best thing since sliced bread! When I presented the idea to H--he STRONGLY disagreed. We went round & round---not making any progress. WE just kept 'arguing'. I was for, he was against--both of us firmly holding our position.

I said---ok let's not discuss this again for a month--just think about it. I asked H to attend a homeschooling conference w/ me so that he could be better informed as well. He agreed.

After that we came back together & discussed it calmly & he was in agreement w/ me. His arguements against were really based on stereo-typical ideas & lack of information, which the conference helped to dispell (becoming fully informed). We agreed that this was the best choice for our son's education & family. My H has been fully FOR it ever since & says he will not have it any different.

Coincidentally, in between this time was when I found out about A/OC so I thoght his decision to agree w/ me was just a way to do ANYthing to get back w/ me because we separated......but to this day (7 school grades later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) he says no, that was not it, it was a decision that he fully agreed to because he felt/realized it was best for our son's education & our family.
**********
**********
Since then, we have tried (not always succeeding) to discuss things together & rationally until an agreement can be found. W/ things like C/NC--we were in full agreement about C @ first but as things progressed & troubles that we did not anticipate w/ OW continued.....we lost our way for a bit. One of us would be @ our emotional wits end & the other would be rational. And I HATE making decisions based on emotions. SO we would keep things as they were until we could think & discuss clearly & unemotionally. That is how we eventually came to a mutual decision that we are in now which is NC.

It was clearly, rationally, thought out, prayed over, & over & over, in every direction, weighing every option, angle, view & consequence......then we felt fully %100 confident in our decision. It was quite a journey but since we did it more correctly in the end, we are sure of our decision & no more flip-flopping.

This makes things much more stable for everyone & H & I are both on the same track/page ect. & neither of us feel discounted, taken for granted or unheard. We made the decision TOGETHER.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,383
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,383
Pep asked: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What about you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When things begin to get heated, and we find we are only spinning our wheels, and getting nowhere.

When we find ourselves in a pickle of a situation, we try to use the boiling-over pot analogy. The pot boils over, first you remove it from the heat, let it cool down awhile, then you begin to clean up the mess, or you'll likely get burned...

Of course, if POJA is followed correctly, there shouldn't be any boiling pots, but we're human, and it sometimes happens. Plus, it doesn't help my H and I are both about equally pig-headed. I must say though, we've become tempered with age. We truly don't sweat the small stuff so much any more--ain't worth it! Also, we've come to realize the things we thought were the "big stuff" can now be put into the "small stuff" category. That realization has not only come with age/maturity, but also with all we've been through.

Sunny~ It's not necessary to put things in writing in order to successfully POJA, (unless one or both spouses is forgetful as to what was agreed upon) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We've never put anything in writing.

Have a lovely weekend ladies!
~ad

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 147
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 147
y'know what I think?

I think only girls participate in these truly meaningful discusions.

So whats my deal? ... I dunnow, I'm thinking of a good responce/opinion.

FastFreddy


Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,358 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5