I was reading on one of the other boards that a BW goes to the same church as the OW.

I don't consider myself to be a religious person at all but it started me thinking.
I remember when my dad was involved with his OW he still went to church and pretended to be a good Christian. I heard the OW went once in a while. Why would they bother? I don't know how anyone can look at themselves in the mirror while involved with an affair much less go to church. It's like laughing in God's face.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

Cody, I personally think REMORSE is the key.

We all sin. Christians believe we can all be forgiven through Christ.

But if the person is actively sinning and doesn't CARE that s/he is or want to change, it certainly does seem like "laughing in God's face" to attend church.

[Today I discovered that someone on a Christian board I go to is an OW living w/MM, planning to marry him, and I am SO disgusted. I've lost all respect for her. How can she think that's okay, just b/c they knew each other before he was married? Ei yi yi]

Funny, there are 2 people in my firm having a well-known "secret" affair for some time.. and the MOw in the situation just happens to be what people (not me) would call a "holy roller". She even holds a bible study at lunch with a few others... Makes us all sick that she puts this great, pure act on yet she is married and having an A with a MM...

Not our place to say who belongs in church, of course. I just seem to believe that is just to make themselves either look or feel good about themselves, while skipping all the "work" it takes to have a happy and fulfilled life with God in it. Know what I mean? I don't think God minds them there- I just hope he shakes the heck out of them one day in that church so that they stop the adultery. Its a terrible sin to commit every day of life and then go to church like all is well. I couldn't- I fear God and fear the consequences of such wantan disregard of Him every day. Sinner, YES I am, but I DO not disregard Him as these OW/MM do.

Hello Cody,

I think that they go to church because they are hoping that God will just reach down from Heaven and literally shake the living daylights out of them (lol), so they can just disappear out of the situations they are in...I truly believe that some of them want to stop, but just are so caught up till they can't seem to find a way to stop. But what they don't realize is that God helps those who want to help themselves...they have to really want to be saved from these situations, or they will continue to remain in the vicious circle that they are in.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh yah! My H was still in pretty regular attendance in church while having A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Not as much since he was 'working' so much...but there still.

Yah was I ever disgusted & sick to my stomach when I realized that. BUT.......aren't we ALL sinners & yet we walk through those church doors anyway.

Personally I believe that Christ considers ALL sins the same so......there's no difference between a liar & an adulterer.

I had to realize that.

My H POV on this--he said he just separated his 2 lives the whole time & didn't think about them--they never existed together but were 2 separate lives. I can't really understand this---but......that is his POV. The only thing these 'lives' had in common was that HE was living them.


I always wonder WHY someone who is living so opposite to what the Bible teaches would even WANT to go to church? Why go somewhere where you reject what they are teaching anyway? Perplexes me.
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Like the other poster said.....it's all about remorse. Realizing what you have done wrong (no matter what it is, how big or little) & changing your behavior to STOP doing what you have done wrong. ie" .....go and sin no more....."

PS: Everyone in church, all of us, are struggling w/ something------that's why we're all there. Trying to figure things out & it's a journey. If we had all the answers we wouldn't need church or a savior right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Well, as a Christian....In the Bible God declares all our sins equal...no more ..no less.

As far as them going to church, everyone should have the opportunity to go. The homeless, the rich, the poor, the robber, the murderer...and the Adulterer's. Where else are they going to get things set straight. These are the people we want to witness..the wayward ones...people who for whatever reason don't have or forgot there values or morals.

We should welcome them whomever...we all need comfort and peace....a message to go on through the week etc. Maybe there the will finally see the light ...or at least the not right.

Just my opinion

Lori

Sorry forgeot to mention...My H whom was raised in church, taken us to family camps etc..has not been except for Church Holidays (Easter/Christmas)

He feels to ashamed..to "face God"

If they do not know God ..they may not feel that shame. Right?

Lori

I remember going into a church during the affair with xMM. It wasn't a service but we were just touring. I was raised catholic and when I was in the church with him I felt like my throat was closing, I couldn't breathe and ran out of there. I do go to church, usually not during mass though...I like to be quiet with God.

Ironically no church I have approached is willing to baptise my child. And because of this I have turned away from the Church entirely. I was excommunicated when I decided to divorce but my child???

What right do we have to question if it is right for an OW/OM/WS attend church?

Each person has his/her own beliefs and we have no right to force our own views on them or each other.

Church and the beliefs that come with it is between the individual and The Lord.
We do not know what goes on within the individual’s relationship with The Lord and we have no right to judge them. No matter what it “looks” like on the outside.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew 7:1-2
In other words.. What judgment you place on someone else, will come back at you 3 times! Do you think the Lord was kidding? Heck no.. He put it in your hand as a daily reminder!
Remember the saying, “Don’t point fingers…?” Take your hand and point your finger at the screen… Now, look at your hand…
Not only do you have 1 finger pointing at the screen… there are 3 pointing BACK AT YOU!

My personal feeling on this matter is that each person, NO MATTER THEIR LABEL, is responsible to the Lord for their own life… and I don’t have the time to deal with their problems.. I have my own.

Pure and simple
JMHO

CodyG,

--I don't consider myself to be a religious person at all but it started me thinking.

TR--Being a 'religious' person and being a 'Christian' can be two different things--

Just going to church doesn't make a person a Christian. So 'Church Buildings' are full of people who don't know Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Many so called preachers today don't even believe the Bible to be the inerrant and infallable word of God--so how can they expect people sitting in their church pews every Sunday to believe it and live it with conviction? They can't--

many preachers are all about the numbers--how many people they have on their church rolls, and not about if these people are living in sin--why? because they themselves don't believe what they bible says--that God is God and God hates SIN, not just what we as humans think of as 'big sins'
but ALL sin--even telling a half truth is still a lie by God's standard--and can seperate us from God for all eternity--and most preachers don't teach with conviction--many people go to church to be made to 'feel' good, and really don't want to hear the truth--that we are ALL sinners worthy of an eternity seperated from God--church isn't or at least shouldn't be about making us feel good--it should be about us going to 'worship' God together--

Worship isn't just about singing music, it's about the message and spending time in fellowship with other Christians--the Pastor or Sunday School teacher, or small group leader sharing the truths of God's word--to encourage, and convict our hearts to change--

But most people don't like to be told they are sinners--so they sit in churches that don't teach all of the bible, they say--that doesn't apply today--well, in some cases that is correct, some parts of the Old Testament were written specifically for and about the Jewish people--
it's about both their physical and spiritual history--it's about their relationship with God
and God's relationship with them--good and bad--
but at the same time, it applies because we can learn from it--

King David, was an adulter and a murderer, and yet was also called "a man after Gods own heart"

And the new testament is written to those after Christ's birth, death, and resurrection--to show God's grace to mankind--Christ with His shed blood became our "pass over" Lamb--but many preachers today don't teach this--

They don't teach God hates sin--but they do teach
"God loves everyone" which makes what they teach a partial truth--Yes, God does love everyone--but He also hates our sinfulness--that is the part MANY preachers leave out--but it's one of the most important truths of the Bible--

And then there are many people in Churches who believe this--but who are still babes in their faith, they realize they are sinners and they need a savior--but haven't fully grapsed just how sinful we really are--according to God--because they try to compare themselves to 'others' who they think have done something worse--they haven't murdered someone so they aren't THAT BAD; they haven't had an affair, so they aren't as BAD as so and so--but read Matthew Chapter 5 verses 27-28 what does it say concerning adultry? and what does 1 John 3:15 say about murder? not what the world thinks of as a murderer that is for certain--

But to get to your orginal questions--based on what I shared above--the church is filled with nothing but sinners--so the real questions are--
are they 'pretending' to be good Christians, are they "really" Christians who are convicted and repentant of their sins? Does the church they go
to teach the gospel according to MAN or according to God?

If the church is teaching the gospel according to man, they will never be convicted of their sinfulness by the truths of God that can transform a heart and life--so yes, they can look themselves in the mirror believing the bible is not the infallable, inerrant word of God--God loves everyone--so therefore, I'll go to heaven

If they are at a church that teaches the truth and they really are Christians and willfully living in sin--God is still working in their lives--and they are miserable on the inside even sitting in Church--and even looking in the mirror
and they may be struggling giving up control of that portion of their lives--to the Holy Spirit's control--

even as a Christian, I know I still have areas in my life I haven't let go of and truly followed the Holy Spirit's leading--why? because of my own stupidity--because I know if I gave them up I would be better off, in more ways than one--but they are areas of weakness in my life--and God convicts me on a daily basis--I know I would have peace if I stopped but yet, I struggle to let go
and give the Holy Spirit control--

So yes, they should be in church, especially if it's a church that teaches the truth--God will lead the preacher to preach directly to them about their sin--and convict their hearts--

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

Having been on just about every side of this coin, I believe that if you are judging by WHAT the person has done, don't you think that someone who is living in sin SHOULD be in church?!?! I COULDN'T look at myself in any mirror without feeling sick during my A's! I didn't recognize the person looking back at me! I'm not trying to excuse ANYTHING that I've done, but I had gotten MYSELF into a situation that I couldn't get MYSELF out of it! What did the trick was my H telling me that he didn't want to know anything, but that there was to be NO more contact w/xOM/MM! That caused the xOM/MM to come over with the intent of breaking me and my H up by "telling all"! Well, that backfired on him, and I was actually relieved after all the smoke cleared! Nothing else at that point mattered. We wanted to fix our M and that's what we've done. We started back at church the following week, and God sent us to the place we needed to go. We've gotten closer to God every day since then! Actually getting involved in the church instead of just filling a seat.

So, do I think that the offending parties in an A have any business going to church? YES, they may need it more than anyone else who is there. As other's have said, we should NOT judge others for their actions. That's up to God to do, we need to just live as Christ lived His life, and to coin an old phrase, "What Would Jesus Do?" It may be cheesy, but it makes a lot of sense. Also as other's have said, in God's eyes, there is NO sin that is worse than any other(except blasphemy of God's name) and everyone deserves a chance to repent of their sins.

Ok, done with my sermon, just offering my views on this statement/question having been on all but being the OC side of the coin.

Tigger

Tigger

I agree with you 100% I know for me getting involved in church has helped me termendously!!! It has helped work through the guilt I had for having the affair, helped forgive my H for his affair and realized that God still accepts me. I am activley involved in church these days also. Every Sunday it's Sunday school and service, I also help out with nursery, the preschool class and Jr church. On Wednesday nights I bring all the children to youth group and help out there. I honestly think being involved with these wonderful people have helped me to get to a better place in my life.

twilight,

I think it is great that you want your child baptised. I think your involvement in any church will affect whether or not they will baptise your child. Most churches baptise the children of their members, and since you are not currently a member....

Technically, you ARE still a member of the Catholic church; you cannot have Communion as a divorcee (without annulment), but you were baptised there and had other Sacraments. Some priests will still see you for confession.

A friend was in that position for 10 years before she got an annulment. Her children were still given the Sacraments b/c she continued to attend (without having Communion). And my sponsor's grandmother (I'm a convert) divorced an abusive alcoholic. She remarried, never got an annulment, but she continued to attend mass the rest of her life, and raised her daughter completely within the Church. The child was of a marriage not sanctioned by the Church, yet her parents were faithful attendees and the priest gave all the Sacraments to their daughter.

One more thought. I was told in RCIA, that "in an emergency", ANYONE can baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, with water, and it is considered conditionally valid by the Church.

I hope you find spiritual food.
God be with you,
J

TWILIGHT!!!!!!! I am not 'catholic' so I don't know all the hiways & biways about it--but I am very sorry that you can't find a church to baptize your child. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Is it only because it is an OC? or something else like others have mentioned?

OW had our OC baptized & OW is not even catholic herself (but i think was raised in the church but no longer believes)

Also, my brother & his W have baptised their children even though my brother is NOT catholic & hiw W doesn't even 'practice'.

Are the churches where you live extra strict & traditional or something?

I know that must have been hurtful for you. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> BUT also remember that although it is 'traditional', (not to offend anyone, catholic or otherwise) GOD loves your child & would not deny him/her no matter what their origin & whether they were baptized or not.

If it means that much to you, get involved in a church that you can feel like 'home' in & talk to the priest. I just don't see why they would turn any child away.

Is this a normal response by the catholic church? How did OW get OC baptized then?

I'm confused.

Anyhoo--twilight, seriously, I am really sorry that you had that response & rejection. I hope you can also remember that it was a response from a 'man' not GOD so please don't take this personal or let it fill you w/ complete rejection from God. HE is not the one rejecting you or your child.
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Anyone is welcome in church, I would feel wierd though if OW & I were all going to the same church. Even if H & I were divorced & he got remarried I would find it very odd. I would not be able to attend the same church.

And like the others here, H & myself both found peace, forgiveness & healing more easily by recommitting ourselves to God & actually getting involved in church, getting to know people & having that accountability.

ACCOUNTABILITY is a big thing.

Hi,
As I sat here at my coumpter taken a lunch break and caught up on post. This topic caught my attenion.

Some posted judge not let ytou be judge. Judgement is to pass judgement on one. To confort one in sin is not judgement. I'm greatfull to have ture Christian friends that hold me accountable. The good Book tells us if a brother/sister is in sin go to him/her and if that refuse you. Go with two or more and do the same. If he/she still continue in sin bring it to the elders. If he/she still continue then he/she move be cased out.

Yes, I have fall short of the gorly of the Lord. Thanks to good friends I saw the arrow of my ways and I repented of my sin. It is not easy to confort one in sin. If the two that are in a are not Christian and go to church they can't beheld in the seem accountablity as a Christian.

My W was in an A for twevels years and she is still not a believer. So, it is not right of my to hold her in the same standars.

Our MC told my that I need to let my W see Christ in my. It was easy for my to shollow. I exspect her to have the same core values as I do.

KT....my church refused because of my marital status...and because she has no father. I understand the Catholic POV and yes, they are very strict here in comparison to other places...the whole French thing. So I went to another Church and then another (both protestant faiths) one said no because I was not a member, even though I said I would become one. The other said no because I was not a good Christian due to the fact the baby didn't have a father (never even got to the part he was married to someone else). After that I gave up. I still go to Catholic church as my older daughter is preparing for communion. She is ok because she was born into a marriage sanctified by the Catholic church.

You are right, it is a man denying my daughter, not God. I was very bitter about being turned away from my Church when I needed spiritual guidance the most. If they can't be there for you then, then why bother? I can find God on my own. My D can make her own decisions when the time comes.

(((((Twilight))))))

That makes me so sad. I wish our OW was half as devot as you.

As far as church - EVERYONE should be welcomed, imo. If some Truth sinks in while they're there, HOORAY FOR GOD! If not, it still wasn't a waste of time...there's always next Sunday's service.

- Kimmy

twilight, are ALL the parishes in your area this strict?? What about driving some distance to another parish for this sacrament, a relatives' town or...?

I'm so sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Like I said, I KNOW there are priests who would agree to baptize your dau so long as you raise her in the Church (which obviously you are with your first child).

Keep trying? There may be something in canon law/catechism that you could use to argue your case. Or go another parish.

I'm also sad when someone rejects a church b/c of one priest/pastor or one Catholic/prot. or any OTHER church person... as EVERY church has people making mistakes in it!!! One thing I realized when chosing a church is that if I wait for the **perfect** church, I will never go!!! I based my decision on theology I read, NOT just the people I found, although good people can be found there too.

Frustrated on your child's behalf!
J

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

I know a lot of people joke and poke fun at "born again" christians. I have been penticostal all of my life (southern baptist of sorts).. and throughout my entire life, every church I have belonged to- they have NEVER, ever turned away ANYONE who wanted to become a member, get baptized, married or have their child baptized. In fact, they embrace those that come from tough backgrounds/ etc etc.. as those are often the ones that need the church the most.

I find it sad , very sad that any church turns away those in need of God, his congregation, or somewhere to worship.

I know we ALL struggle at times to accept those that are different.. to not cast stones, etc... HOWEVER, we are talking about the CHURCH.. priests, preachers.. If they are not an example for God, and his acceptance and forgiveness of EVERYONE- esp. a child to be brought before God to be baptized..

I don't get it. I have a big problems w/the Catholic faith- and this is probably the sole reason why. My ex was catholic and they would NOT allow us to be married in their church cause I was not catholic. They would NOT allow my son to (christened sp?) unless my ex had given "envelopes" regularly.... what a sad, sad way for a church to operate.

DEFINITELY not bashing catholics.. and many other churches/denominations act this way too. Heck I'm Italian and most of my family is catholic! I care not about what "religeon" anyone is. Never have. I just know that while the "born again" christians get a LOT of ridicule- they are extremely loving and kind/accepting to ALL walks of life. (at least the ones I've known).

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

Gio~

I'm sorry, but I think it's statements such as these that give us as BA-Christians a bad name.:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think God minds them there-</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its a terrible sin to commit every day of life and then go to church like all is well. I couldn't- I fear God and fear the consequences of such wantan disregard of Him every day. Sinner, YES I am, but I DO not disregard Him as these OW/MM do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been taught that any unrepented sin before God, is a display of disregard to Him. I don't believe WS/OW/OM have that market cornered. If we're looking down our noses at our neighbor, but we have issues of our own, even lies, or boastfulness, or whatever--we are disregarding Him.