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#837402 11/20/04 10:09 AM
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Mitzi, not to sound harsh or anything, but if your xh kicked your butt, I'd say your better off without him.......No one should be abused.

Obratti, I agree with you. It may hurt and it may be a process, but it's doable. I know what my responsiblities are with my children and I take care of them. It's my job to make sure they grow up and be responsbile and I will deal with the problem at hand when the time is right in a positive way that will be the less hurtful to my daughter and put my own feelings aside. It has to be done this way for my child's sake. Some of you will probally bash me for my next statement but there are times that I look at my daughter and say well xmm this is your lost, (as for the love I have for her) I'm just being honest, but for the most part we don't even consider xmm in the picture. As Obratti said....it's something he has to deal with. Not me and we ALL do what is best for our own situations. The xmm bw ow etc. WE ALL DO.

#837403 11/20/04 10:11 AM
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Well said OB1. I believe in contact only if ALL adults involved can be civil and respect the situation. If not it will not work and inflict more pain on ALL the children involved in the end. I can't say H and I never think about OC he does and wishes the situation was different. But you can't control peoples actions heck once again I'm faced with $1200 worth of damage to the new car I just brought. Well, at least this time she's including H's SUV $300 to replace his window. lol Trying to joke about a crazy situation. I've finally said enough and will call the police the next time. I've let this go too long. We are also in the process of installing a security system and a gate on the driveway which sucks to me. Two more expenses we do not need but if you are crazy enough or bold enough to come in our driveway on and off for 4 years to damage vehicles it has to stop.

Glad to hear Jonas is doing well. Chi Chi is now 4 too and growing like a weed. Only in height though the girl is still only 32 pounds. Trying to fatten her up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> exOW never responded to the care package or request to send clothing sizes so I'm leaving it up to H to decide what he's going to do this year. Nice to hear from you I hope all is well with you and your boyfriend.

Tee

#837404 11/20/04 10:56 AM
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needtomoveon,

Doesn't sound harsh to me at all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We've been spearated/divorced for almost 5 years. I remarried in 2002. Best thing that ever happened to me!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

#837405 11/21/04 12:33 AM
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mitzi,

No, I haven't had to deal with this type of situation and I sympathize with all of you that have. But I still stand by MY OPINION.

You're right of course, that each of us is entitled to an opinion. When any of us express that opinion on an open forum..the result is often that folks will challenge that opinion. Create opportunities for you to examine it, stretch it...walk in someone else's shoes. That is the way the board works. And especially if it's a situation where it challenges the sensibilities of ladies directly involved...expect some vehement responses to black and white thinking.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or condemn any of you ladies if that's not what you choose. It is just my opinion...what I feel could be done and be good for all involved.

But isn't "the good" a subjective thing when you look at the whole picture? Does "all involved" include for instance the previous children of the primary relationships? What if for instance, those children are traumatized by contact? What if contact with the OW (who will always be the mother) traumatize the family and threaten to rip it apart? What's "good" for one person, simply may not be "good" for another or for the "many"...that is the part of your opinion that was being challenged.

And nor do I have any "noble preconceived notions" about what I "think" I would do.

Well I sure do. I think alot about the ideal vs. reality. I have lots of thoughts on what the noble thing to do would be....but I have enough experience in life to understand that nobility cannot always be my focus in life...sometimes, simply surviving and preserving the integrity of my life, the lives of my children and husband....must take precidence over even such lofty goals as nobility.

I tuck my littlest child to bed at night and while I tell him that he is safe and loved, I think to myself "all children should go to bed this way" and in my noblest heart....I wish deeply to reach out to all of them. I wish that the selfishness of adults would not compromise the safety of even one...but the truth is that one of the main purposes that marriage evolved around, was the protection and fostering of the children it created. Having children outside of that protective circle, compromises their ability to have that same opportunity. How sad that is, and yet...it is the reality of thoughtless acts that create such circumstance.

#837406 11/21/04 12:48 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> Does anyone have an opinion on Dr. Phil's recommendation that Ed have contact with his OC? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's not forget that this baby has about a 50/50 chance of being DT3's. OW, as you will recall, was furious when MT3 talked to OW's XBF and put together the pieces for him: OW had been telling BF the baby was conceived later than it was, to make him believe it couldn't possibly be his. And she was lying to DT3, too, saying it was over with BF when it wasn't and that, yes, when the baby was conceived, well, she was doing BOTH men. So it's 50-50.

I hope DT3 doesn't back off a paternity test when the baby is born.

~ Snow

#837407 11/20/04 09:49 PM
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I recorded both shows... Have them both saved in the DVR until I can get a dedicated tape to save them to...

The things that strike me about what Dr Phil said in regards to contact...
ONLY with your wife involved, do it above board with your WIFE!
Isn't this what we always tell newbies when they are considering Contact???
Contact should not be a hidden thing, it should only happen when the BS is in agreement to Contact.

I took Dr Phil to mean that it must be POJA'd.
The BS must be involved and must be reassured in all aspects of C.
He said that the relationship should be with the child, and any relationship with the OW must be ONLY as a co-parent across time.... ONLY A CO-Parent!
MOM and DAD must POJA this entire situation... but with what I read in DAD's face, I agree with MOM, until he comes out of the fog, he will never allow her to accept the child.
"HE" has always wanted a girl?? Why not THEY (DAD & MOM)always wanted a girl??? He seems so deep in the fog, he can only think of himself and HIS feelings. From the words he said, it seems to me that in his fogged up mind.. there is ONLY DAD.. NOT MOM and DAD....

I heard myself when MOM said, That's supposed to be MY girl. That sperm belongs to me! Those were MY OWN WORDS over 3 years ago!
Seeing DAD on the show, really made me think back. I thought back to the early days after Dday... and how Mr Lee acted... In so many aspects, they are similar.
It brought back many memories that I needed to revisit... many that helped me see how far WE have come since that time.

I pray that they are able to work through this.. no matter which way it goes...
The aftermath of an affair carries on and on and on... No matter if there is a D or not... The fact that there was an A will continue to haunt them both.. and obviously the children in the long run...

Prayers for MOM's father... and for each of them to find PEACE as they work towards a solution.

Stacia

#837408 11/22/04 09:47 AM
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! Let's get back to that type of help and stop the judgemental crap!

Ok, now stepping down from my soap box. Hope if you've read this far, I have made sense.


Can't have it both ways....judgment and soap boxes. Isnt' that what makes life interesting?

ent

#837409 11/22/04 03:04 PM
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Unhappily and predictably, Ed has resumed his affair ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

and MT3B announced today that her father has just died. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

and Ed is with OW .... because Ed is only interested in Ed.

Pep

#837410 11/22/04 11:24 PM
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MT2B I am so sorry about your father and what all your dealing with right now. My prayers are with you.

#837411 12/02/04 08:53 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong> I think it is absoloutly an enormous assumption to think that a bs could possibly come to terms with "mothering" an other womans child....especially the way these kids come about.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have noticed a distinct double standard here on MB with regards to OC. If a WH has on OC, NC seems to be the standard advice, and heaven forbid a WH wants to be a part of his childs life. But, when its a WW with an OC, I have never once heard someone advise NC with OC.

Why is it ok for a BW not to "mother" another womans child, but it is ok for a BH to have to "father" another mans child?
Michael
PS Gemini not picking on you, your post just represents the prevailing opinion here.

#837412 12/02/04 09:08 AM
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Sorry Michael, I don't remember....do you have contact with your OC or are you raising the OC from your FWW's affair? How is it working for you?

#837413 12/02/04 09:46 AM
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Michael,

I agree with you...there is a double standard...but not one created by MB...but rather nature. Men don't give birth to children. It's a fact of life. Mothers carry a child within their bodies and they are connected to those children in way that a man isn't. That doesn't mean strong bonds don't exist between fathers and children...but it is not just built right into the process, it has to be nurtured with time and energy. However, I have heard of several couples where the WW had the OC and it was given up for adoption or given to the father. It's far rarer as you suspect and has to do with gender and physiology as well as the emotional bonds that nature has designed to exist between mother and child.

#837414 12/02/04 10:40 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> I agree with you...there is a double standard...but not one created by MB...but rather nature. Men don't give birth to children. It's a fact of life. Mothers carry a child within their bodies and they are connected to those children in way that a man isn't. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know what Starfish, I actually tend to agree with you. I do not argue that a special bond exists between most mothers and their child. But, the fact of the matter is some women do give up their children.....just as some men could not give up their child. I am not saying every WW with an OC should give it up, quite the contrary. I am just saying there needs to be an acceptance that there are men who could no more give up their child than a woman could. Is that not fair?

I agree with Dr Phil. I could not live without having contact with my child, no matter how he/she came into the world.

Nerlycrzy,
there is no OC in my soon to be over M. However, I faught for and won custody of my two children. My STBXW never really tried that hard. Obviously, there are women for whom that bond is not there, just as there are men who have a bond with their children that cannot be broken.
Michael

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

#837415 12/02/04 11:32 AM
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Michael,

We agree. I have known many mothers who gave up their children and many fathers who couldn't. The reason we see less of it though...is not an MB phenonmenon though...I think it leans towards a natural one. Biochemically, pregnancy, childbirth, and breast feeding create high levels of Oxytocin in the bodies of women. That is the same chemical that's released during orgasm for both men and women....and is created naturally by nature to help mothers bond with babies even before they are born.

I have great respect for men who want to be part of their children's lives...but I also respect those who choose not to. It would not me MY choice, but I can easily understand the complexities of some of the situations here....where absolutes rarely apply. For instance....I can say with conviction that I would NEVER have an abortion. But I've never been faced with rape that resulted in pregnancy...so I can't say how I would respond to that, nor will I judge someone who has. The fathers who have created an OC...and who also have other children sometimes don't have the same clear choices that you or I have.

Do I believe that every child should be raised by loving parents including a father....yes yes and million times yes. No innocent child should have to suffer...so why do they? Because they are powerless to adults who control and contrive their lives. How sad that sometimes there are no good choices for a father to make once these wheels are set in motion. Don't believe me? Just read some of the accounts here where fathers have tried to remain connected to the OC and weren't allowed to or were manipulated for money or emotionally black mailed by angry OP. Absolutes fall apart in real life.

Let me give you scenario to choose from and see how absolute of a choice this seems to you...because this is a very typical situation on these boards:

You love your wife, but for whatever reason...weakness, opportunity, poor character, crisis...you had an affair which produced a child. You never wanted to be with this OW, but your wife and family are already distraught and devastated by the conflict created by this A and OC. You want to save your marriage and meet your responsibilities to your first children as well as the OC, but your wife is threatening to leave you. The legal complications are exhaustive. The financial burden is of legalities as well as CS are also creating huge stresses on the family. The children of your marriage are displaying varying problems with school/sleep/emotional outbursts or other issues as a result of the conflict in your home. The OP calls your house non-stop asking for money and begging you to come back. She uses your desire to see your child to resume the A. Your wife wants nothing to do with the child and is taking anti-depressants and about to have a nervous breakdown. She wants nothing to do with the OC or the OP. The children of your marriage are begging you not to leave the house because their mother is withdrawn and angry whenever you leave. If you allow your marriage to be destroyed because your wife will not accept this OC...you compromise the stability for your first children. If you forsake the OC...you compromise his/her opportunity to have an active father. Where is the good choice?

Yes, some folks are able to muddle through and find good solutions that can make this work...but that's when all the people involved...H, W, OW, OC and children from the marriage...are ALL healthy and functional. It doesn't always work that way. It only takes one person in all of this to be incapable of emotionally handling this situation to make the choices so difficult that finding a GOOD solution is elusive.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

#837416 12/02/04 07:24 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Let me give you scenario to choose from and see how absolute of a choice this seems to you...because this is a very typical situation on these boards:

You love your wife, but for whatever reason...weakness, opportunity, poor character, crisis...you had an affair which produced a child. You never wanted to be with this OW, but your wife and family are already distraught and devastated by the conflict created by this A and OC. You want to save your marriage and meet your responsibilities to your first children as well as the OC, but your wife is threatening to leave you. The legal complications are exhaustive. The financial burden is of legalities as well as CS are also creating huge stresses on the family. The children of your marriage are displaying varying problems with school/sleep/emotional outbursts or other issues as a result of the conflict in your home. The OP calls your house non-stop asking for money and begging you to come back. She uses your desire to see your child to resume the A. Your wife wants nothing to do with the child and is taking anti-depressants and about to have a nervous breakdown. She wants nothing to do with the OC or the OP. The children of your marriage are begging you not to leave the house because their mother is withdrawn and angry whenever you leave. If you allow your marriage to be destroyed because your wife will not accept this OC...you compromise the stability for your first children. If you forsake the OC...you compromise his/her opportunity to have an active father. Where is the good choice?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish,
again, I don't disagree with anything you say. There are no absolutes in life. But let me give you and example of the attitude that I pick up here. Imagine this scenario.

You love your husband, but through a mistake, circumstance, weakness, or whatever reason, you had an affair. You never really wanted to be with this OM, you would rather fix your marriage. However, your affair resulted in your having a child with the OM. You can't really afford another child, the children you have with your husband have already maxed out your finances. The OM knows about the child, and is insisting on being a part of it's life. You children are resentful toward the OC, knowing it's part of what is making the environment in your house so stressful and making their father so unhappy. Your husband, though he has tried, cannot accept the OC in his life. Will you allow your marriage to be destroyed to keep this OC, even though it will reek even more financial and emotional hardship on the children you already had with your husband? On the other hand, if you foresake the OC, either giving it up for adoption or to the father, you take away his/her chance to have a relationship with you. Where is the choice here?

The difference between your scenario and mine is that I have never once, never on the MB forum, heard anyone recommend that the best course of action in this case would be to give up the OC and have NC. But I have heard many times, that the best thing for a WH to do is to have no contact with his child.

Sorry, but that's how I see it. Again, one size does not fit all. There are no abolutes here. I am just saying that there is a distinct attitude here and in other places that a BH should take one for the team and accept an OC to save the marriage, but that a BW need not do the same.
Michael

#837417 12/02/04 08:04 PM
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I think in the case of the wife who has the baby, and it is tearing her marriage and her existing children apart, she would have to consider giving the child up. If she chooses the oc over the marriage and the children from it, she would be putting the needs of one above all others. This is where a good therapist is necessary. This is where the hard decisions are made. It isn't made overnight, or in a flash. But lets face it, everyone gets hurt when two people do this. Everyone gets a piece of the hurt pie. OC included.

To many people try to foster the notion that "whats best for the children" when what they are saying is "what's best for oc"

I read, recently, where an ow actually thinks it is OK if the children of the marriage are upset, hurt, angry, etc., cause they will get over it????? What kind of monster would ever even think that way? Her assumption was based on the fact that people go through trauma regularly and recover, so those kids can go through it and they will recover???? That was one of the most deluded statements I have ever read. Absolute contempt for the innocent children of the marriage. The cruelty knows no bounds I guess.

The bottom line is everyone gets hurt. That is why I feel it is best for no contact at all. To much drama. The marriage continues, even though one partner has been hurt. The children of the marriage are hurt, the ow is hurt, the oc is hurt. EVERYONE GETS HURT.

This is where the biggest argument seems to be. I myself belive in no contact. The oc is not my responsibility, not my problem. My children will never be forced to pay for the sins of their father. Yet many ow think it is necessary that their child be part of the family, etc. As mothers we all do what is best for our children. I can see where they would want a father around for their child, but then, that was their fault to keep a child that didn't have a father available. Simply selfish.

The whole thing is a sordid mess. Your scenario is a perfect example of why it is just as hard on the husband of cheater. But the same POJA would need to be addressed. Is she going to destroy her family for one child? If she did, she would suffer greatly, as her children would realize she sacrificed them and that would breed resentment. So she has a choice to make doesn't she. Not an easy place to be. But to think she can force this child upon a family that is angry about it would be selfish and cruel. But then again, those terms can be used to describe people in affairs anyway. The hell she would be living in would be of her own making. I know I wouldn't want to be in that situation. Is that where you are finding yourself?

If so, my heart goes out to you. However the MB principles and the POJA apply both ways. So if a man found himself in this situation, the same rules would apply. Make the decision together, where both are 100% supportive of it, or the marriage won't work. Neither can force the other into anything. We just don't have to many men who post here.

#837418 12/03/04 08:14 AM
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Micheal,

Maybe you just haven't run accross the posts that do recommend adoption for women. I did a quick search to see if anything popped and found a few posts and threads that deal with that issue. We have alot more women than men here....so this doesn't arise as often....but men who wish for there wives to give up the OC are supported here. Here's a couple of posts and threads of interest:

from catnip (long time member who recommends adoption to WWs)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I firmly believe that in cases such as your when a husband finds that his wife is pregnant with someone else's child, it is the wife's obligation to her husband, her children and to the OC to give the OC up for adoption and to sacrifice her selfish desires to keep OC for the overall good of her family of origin...and ultimately for the OC itself! The OC deserves the advantages of an untainted life with a stable and loving two-parent family. The child should not be subjected to the label of '[censored] born of an affair', the possibility of not being accepted, being the subject of gossip. I believe the Wayward Wife should just suck up her pain and discomfort and do the most unselfish thing she can for the child, her husband and her other children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's something from TooMuchCoffeeMan to a WW:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He may not feel like those are such great sacrifices on your part. But if you would be willing to put the baby up for adoption to save the M, then this HUGE sacrifice could go a long way in convincing your H that you truly love him and would do anything to regain his trust, including giving up your child for him. He may be so moved by such an offer, that he may not want you to give up the baby, to spare you the hurt of parting with it. But if giving up the child is out of the question, then the fate of your M may be decided on an emotional toss of the coin by your H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=002115#000007

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=004486#000009

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=004208#000004

#837419 12/03/04 09:01 AM
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Micheal,

If you could go back to my H's first posts you would see many asking him things like, "Do you want to stay married?", or "Are you willing to raise this baby with your W?", or other similar questions!

I know that you are in pain due to your W's actions, but it is NOT just a given that the BH will raise the OC! Here on the P/C board, the WW is told, if not by myself, then by others, that she HAS to give her H the choice of whether or not they want to be a part of the OC's life. WE, my H and I, actually did consider adoption, but having gone through that 17 years ago(yesterday) my H didn't want me to go through that again, and he was willing to be Daddy to Abbi, and it's a choice that I left up to him! THAT was our POJA. I was in agreement that whatever my H chose, I would stand by his decision. I was willing to do whatever it took to repair the damage that I had caused to our M.

So, as for the statements of the BH doesn't have a choice, well, if the WW makes it so, then the BH DOES have a choice, to leave the M. It's not an easy thing to do, for either side of the coin, but if you think you CAN handle it, then at least give it a try before you just give up(not talking in your case, as I know from reading your past posts that you have tried). That's what many of the BW's here have done, some with success at contact, others, not so much. But, at least they admitted they were doing what they felt they could handle.

One last time, EVERY SITUATION IS UNIQUE UNTO ITSELF! Each couple needs to decide TOGETHER what their M can and can't handle from this point on. The BW's who come here trying and/or succeeding at contact should have support, as should those who can't handle contact now and/or ever. This board is MAINLY for the support of the BS dealing with the OC and how to use the concepts to do so. No matter if that BS is a H or a W. It is also for the WS who is TRYING to do what they can to repair that damage that they have caused the M. Again, no matter if the WS is the H or the W.

I highly recommend if you have NOT walked even a foot in these shoes, try NOT to judge the choices others have made, as you can NEVER know how you would react until you are IN the situation with the OC. If you are here w/out that experience, let's work on supporting, WITH the concepts/principles, those who are struggling, no matter what choice they have made. Yes, there is venting allowed, but lets try to get the concepts and principles out there more than the venting, ok?

#837420 12/03/04 09:33 AM
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Just for those who may be curious, here is the "address" for the post I was talking about when my H was advised what to do in our situation. Now, remember, this was over 4 yrs ago, and just after we had finally decided WHAT we were going to do. Emotions were still high, especially for myself.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=000336#000000

#837421 12/03/04 02:55 PM
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And look at ya'll today!!!!!!

Geez Tig and Sailorman! I gotta love you both for your strength of character!

- Kimmy

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