ok sorry about the ***** comment but I just thought of it and laughed at myself.
***Lets not start a board war,,ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> JustUss***


There is actually a very good posting over there about how not to place all the blame the OW/OM. and rebuild your M or move on to a better life. I don't believe in cross posting or I would copy it and bring it here.
I hold my H 200% responsible for the A but I hold my OW responsible for the unwanted OC.

EDIT TO SAY- sorry Justuss but you got to admit it was funny and a little true. no board war started- thanks

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Gwenieinabottle ]</small>

I don't think as many people place all the blame on the OM/OW as they think they do. Sure, they may badmouth them, but not necessarily blame them. Many of them badmouth the wife, so I don't really see what they are crying about.

My H hated the OM, mainly because he felt jealous and threatened. BUT, I was the one that took responsibility, not OM. Eventually my H chilled on wanting to put the OM in the hospital and realized I was the one he had to work on the M with on a daily basis and that focusing so much hate on OM was doing no good.

There is this double standard, a dichotomy if you will....and to be fair...it exists on BOTH boards. Each board encourages their members to "vent" and "get it all out" (that's what the board is for <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) and then each board looks at the other one and says "they are FULL of hate!!" I hope that "venting" is a temporary and small part of this process....and that making good choices, growing, learning, coping, strategizing, and rebuilding healthy relationships (both marital and parental) are primary goals for this board. We all need to let off steam sometimes...but don't drop anchor there and as much as possible...recognize a rant/vent for what it IS.

For folks there to get upset about the "vents" here...is counterproductive and a poor relflection of who BSs really are is counter productive. And the reverse may also be true. Venting anger, rage, disappointment, fear etc is a "stage" that is part of the grief process and a necessary one....so see it for what it is and don't give it power to affect your vision about "who" someone else is. This stuff hurts on a primal level, and much of what is written is so guttural that it can be hard to read from either side. Strong emotions create strong words.

Big hugs to all of you who are navigating these rough waters. It is a particularly difficult journey and all of you have my prayers.

This stuff hurts on a primal level, and much of what is written is so guttural that it can be hard to read from either side. Strong emotions create strong words.


You're right starfish..... Lord knows, I did and said some horrible things to H and OW when everything came out. I embarassed myself. But picked myself up and apologized....even to OW.

I think forgiveness is a HUGE part of recovering. Espcially forgiving myself for the things I said and did.

ent

It actually really is a good post - I'm not sure where the person copied it from, but it's thought provoking for sure.

Found it - elsewhere on the web ~

An Affair to Remember
by Alan Cohen

"Every problem comes to you
with a gift in its hands."

-- Richard Bach

A third party has no power to break up a healthy relationship. No one can come between you and your partner unless something has already come between you and your partner. A mate having an affair is not the cause of a breakup; it is a symptom of a breakdown in the fabric of the primary relationship. From the Big Love perspective, an affair is not a cause for condemnation of self or other; it can be the most valuable wakeup call of a lifetime.

The most important question to ask of a partner who has strayed is: "What were you looking for that you were not finding in your primary relationship?" There are two possible answers: (1) What he wanted was available at home, but he did not have the vision, willingness, or ability to see and claim it. Perhaps he bumped up against a fear of intimacy, or he did not have the communication skills or emotional depth to work through the issues; or (2) the home relationship simply did not have the substance for longevity, the partners were not (or are no longer) well matched, or the relationship was in some way toxic. The affair, then, was an unconscious statement that something was not right with the primary relationship.

In either case, the affair coming to light is a blessing. If the love at home was real, both partners now have the opportunity to go deeper, tell more truth, heal the issues that were troubling them, and create a partnership that transcends what both were settling for. Like a broken bone, when a fractured relationship heals, it grows stronger than it was before the break, strongest at the point where it knit.

If there was not a lot of substance to the relationship in the first place, or the partners grew irrevocably in different directions, it is probably a blessing that one partner took the step to leave. The affair set into motion a series of events that forced you to to tell more truth and ultimately freed both of you to get on with your lives. Granted, it would have been more gentle if the person who strayed came forward with direct communication, but, as the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. Our bodies communicate what our words do not, and if your wife took her body to another man's bed, she is making a statement that cannot be denied.

The only thing worse than an affair that comes to light is an affair that does not come to light. Yes, there was pain and upset in the aftermath of the revelation, but consider the alternative: You could have gone on for many years trudging through a half-relationship, your issues buried and your hearts weeping, never confronting the issues that were slowly killing you. Rejoice that you can now take the next step toward going deeper with each other, or moving apart. At least you have the truth on your side now.

Don't waste a moment blaming the third party. Who he is, or how she connected with you or your partner, and the details of the drama are of little importance in the face of the gifts and lessons available to you and your partner. Truth be told, it could have been anyone. If you or your partner wanted to leave, there are millions of people to run to, and if it wasn't Sally or John, it would have been Sue or Bill. The name, face, and story are far less significant than the who. And if there have been several or more outside partners, it really doesn't matter, for in such a case you can see quite clearly that the behavior was about the mate who strayed, not the third parties.

Meanwhile, the third party has her own inner work to do. Why she would choose to get involved with someone who is married or in a relationship is something she needs to look at and come to terms with. But one thing is clear: That is none of your business. The less time and energy you spend analyzing, judging, or punishing the partner who strayed or the third party, the more time and energy you will have to make the experience work on behalf of your own growth and the evolution of your relationship. Attempting to blame a third party is a tactic of distraction that takes the spotlight off of you and your partner. Bring your introspection back home, for it is there that you will find healing.

An individual who is satisfied in a relationship cannot be seduced, nor will she seek diversions. There may be momentary attractions, but if you and your partner have a Big Love and the willingness to connect in depth, the fulfillment both of you seek is present and available. Commitment is not something you create by saying words; it is an experience of the heart, and passing flirtations have no power over Big Love.

There is a principle in organic gardening that is true of relationships: Pests are less likely to attack plants that are growing in healthy soil. You can administer all kinds of pesticides or organic deterrents, but your best defense against intruders is to nourish the soil from which the plant derives its essential nutrients. Given a healthy foundation, plants develop a natural immune system superior to external additives.

Translated into human relationship, the best way to ensure a committed relationship is to keep feeding your partnership with truth, love, and intimacy. These attributes are not ones that you should expect to get from your partner (although you do): they are investments you make in your relationship. The quickest route to hell in a relationship is to expect your partner to fill your emptiness, and the most direct way to heaven is to give what you want to receive. You only receive what you give, and you receive it in the giving.

So it comes to this: you can thank and bless the third party as your teacher and awakener. Certainly this was not their intention, but it is the gift you choose to make of him or her. The third party pointed out aspects of yourself, your partner, and your relationship that you may never have discovered, or at least not for a long, long time. Bless and release the third party and get on with the business of building the kind of relationship you truly desire. Use the affair to create a Big Love with your partner that goes far beyond what shaky love offered, or use the affair to deepen loving yourself or create a more meaningful partnership with another at a later time. Everything serves, and an affair is no exception.

This article was excerpted from:
"Happily Even After: Can You Be Friends After Lovers?"

Allen Cohen has been described as having "a gift for looking at the good in every situation"...but there are so many parts of this excerpt that are just rationalizations, over simplifications and romantic dross, that I hardly know where to begin.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A third party has no power to break up a healthy relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since "healthy" is entirely subjective....this statement is just an oversimplification that generalizes both marriages and affairs. Healthy marriages, even the best of marriages have ups and downs...times of crisis and times of compatibility. During the unavoidable hard times (which may or may not be about the marriage partners or the marriage in general) the injection of a third party can most certainly affect the outcome. A lack of culpability is the prevailing view on TOW...I know that...the OP is NOT in any way responsible, but that negates the whole idea of ethics in life.

Let me give an impirical example of this. Two of my clients had a wonderful marriage for 13 years, until 18 months ago, when they lost their son in a car accident. They were both overcome with grief and so sad that they were having trouble helping each other. They didn't have an unhealthy marriage...they had a tragedy. One of the wife's friends, (who was not grief stricken or course), began consoling the H and talking to him. She sent him cards to help cheer him up. She began calling him "just to check on him" and eventually she was holding him and kissing him while he cried. It quickly turned to more. Since that time, the husband has ended his relationship with this woman and feels horrible for cheating on his wife. He and his wife are now healing from their grief over two enormous losses and rebuilding the healthy marriage they once had. After a year and half...they finally are beginning to feel healthy and happy again.

Was the OW totally responsible? Heck no!! The husband chose to cheat on his wife. But is the OW without responsibility? Heck no!! There is no question that there are times even in healthy marriages, where the intrusion of a third party detracts, distracts and hampers reconnection with a spouse. Mr. Cohen talks about "lack of power" but mentions nothing about the biochemistry of affairs and how incredibly POWERFUL those elements are or how addictive they become. These are flowery words....but not reality or scientifically based.

The rest of this....about what a "blessing" an affair is could only have been written by someone who has never experienced one. I can honestly say that my marriage benefitted from the steps we took after the affair...but if it was a blessing...it was a dark one and there are other ways to learn the same things that are true blessings.

While I do believe that focussing on the third party is a waste of time IF you intend to rebuild your marriage....trying to sell the idea that the OP has NO culpability is simple minded, rationalization and just plain wrong.

Falling in love with someone who is married is NOT wrong....those are feelings. Acting upon that love is very wrong for both the OP and the MP. Sex outside of marriage cannot be achieved without two people. It is an unethical choice for each of them. Choices have power. The choices the MP makes...and the choices the OP makes. They each have the power to say no and if EITHER of them do...they can prevent so much pain.
Some MP pursue OP...some OP pursue MP...it matters NOT...each have the power to choose their own path and ethically consider the consequences to themselves and others.

I clearly understand the confusion that OP feel when they are saddled with ALL of the responsibility of an A....that isn't accurate either. There are BSs who place the total blame on the OP and ignore the fact that their spouse made the choice to be unfaithful to the marriage. They choose to direct all their hate and energy on the OP and I agree that it's impossible to heal that way. But no matter how you "spin" this...it takes two unethical choices to create one affair.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

GREAT post Starfish. You picked out some very important parts of that article and said exactly what I was thinking-- cept better!!

I also STRONGLY agree that even a long-term marriage that has been mostly "good" can be subjected to an A. Anyone, on any given day, can find themselves "not happy" with the current state of their marriage-- WE ALL DO/HAVE! But as mature, responsible adults, we should be able to see that things will pass--- if we are willing to endure the hard times.. if we are willing to work to make things right within our homes- and not bring others on board to sooth our woes. Even the happiest human beings have fluxuating emotions, feelings, etc.- and our urges come as fast as they go at times.

No person, married or otherwise, will feel happy or euphoric (sp?) all the time with their partner or M in general. If all of us had an A when we felt unhappy during a spell in our marriage- I think the divorce rate/A instances would be 100%.

There are MANY strong marriages that wind up being torn apart by an A... and what is additionaly sad is many of the wayward spouses come to realize that the OP is as full of flaws-- or even MORE flawed than the gem they had at home.

Many OP feel that they can change so much by their magical mystical saving powers.... they see the BS as the relationship destroyer and thus SHE deserves to lose the husband, etc... YET those saving powers only "work" for so long. Many of the cheating spouses are problematic and that is why the relationships change and become bad in the first place.... No matter how great the wife or OW is- its still the same guy moving on to the next woman to screw up. I could go on and on about this!!!!!

I'll stop now, though.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You both have good points but I read it a little differently as that the WHO of who the OP is not important. They could be anybody! They don't matter!
Every M and relationship has problems! Some people cheat, some don't. The OP wouldn't even be a temptation if the WS is being honorable and true to themselves and their spouse. I know that my M was a good one before and even during the A and I never doubted my H loved me only. Even when I divorced his butt, I knew he loved me and not/never loved her. It was my H who had the problems and dealt with them the completely wrong way. Instead of looking to me for help and asking for help admitting he was having problems, he turned to someone who he didn't love and cared about. It didn't matter to him what the OW thought of him and his weaknesses/issues but it did matter to him what I thought because he loves me.
But the point about the OW coming in at a time of such grief and need is very valid. But it probably didn't matter WHO she was, any OW would have served her purpose to relief his grief and sorrow.
I just want to say that the OP does have their own responsiblity for what they've done and will answer for it. I can't imagine what it would be like to know I was used and to have a child with out a father who cared about it. But the OP wouldn't be the OP if the WS had kept themselves in check.

Gwenie,

I see your point...and I agree that sometimes the "who" is not that important (one night stand for instance)...but I can think of many times when it is!!! Let me explain. What if the "who" is your wife's sister, your brother's wife or a trusted friend? What if the OP had huge loyalties to the BP....like in the instance I gave you where it was her best friend? What if the "who" is the fifteen year old girl next door? The "who" matters. And in affairs where the partners say they are "in love" any old "who" supposedly is not what it's about.

Yes Gwenie, Yes! My H always was very very much in love with me. I was not a wife who felt a withdraw or felt that my H was uninterested in any way. He was madly in love with me and is to this day. HOWEVER- the deep love he had for me he has not had for anyone else-- and neither have I. That created another whole bunch of problems because loving that much and being inexperienced with love (as we both were not commiting types)- made the fine line to "hate" so much closer. He resented that love- he rebeled from it because it hurt him so much to think I was not into him or interested in him anymore, etc. He was SO angry at the love he had for me that it made him want to hurt me and spite me and just be down right nasty to me when I would no longer take his bullcrap (before the A- the problems we had were pushing me away from him sexually, etc.).

Does that make sense? His own words, mostly- and it made perfect sense finally -- the "how could you love me and do this" question had been answered some. It just didnt make sense that this man who NEVER wanted to leave my side, ever-- was so hateful all the sudden.

Also, I have actually been (pre-marriage) in the situation where I rebounded or looked outside my long-term relationships for "more". The diversion - or rebound guy was ALWAYS the "best" the "nicest" the "sexiest" .... and THEN... merely 4 weeks later I was over it- I would move on again. This person was just "anyone" to me- not my soul mate- not my saving grace.... The rebound or diversion person always seems so great at first-- its so typical.

Of couse the OM/OW/rebound person could be WONDERFUL to others-- their worth as a person could be great- but these people are merely a tool in a rebound/cheating situation. Not consciously, of COURSE- but looking back- it was the search for something else-- but the something else really is in finding YOU and making YOURSELF happy, stable and fulfilled in healthy ways.

I agree with everything Starfish said.

That said, I want to address the blame to op. I have never seen people blame the op. What I do see is op's do not want to be held accountable for their actions. While I blamed my H 100% for his actions. The ow in our case was also forced to be accountable for hers.

I have never read where anyone says it wasn't his fault. I think that is an over simplified view that ow have to have so they don't look at just what type of people they are. They have no clue as to what goes on in the marriage at all. Do they really expect not to have consequences for their actions?

Do I hold OW responsible for my marriage? No.

Do I dislike her? Yes. She is not the type of person that I like.

Did she suffer at my hand? Yes. She lost a job due to my actions. I just mentioned what a sleaze she was, and they looked into her behavior at work and she was fired.

Does that mean I didn't hold H accountable? NO. It means she messed with my life and I messed with hers. It has nothing to do with me holding my husband accountable. It means I thought she was a sleaze and apparently so to did her employers.