I hope that you don't mind that I direct questions to you specifically. You have much more experience in this than anyone else I see on this board. The rest of us are either at the beginning or mucking around somewhere in the middle. I respect your opinion which is why I post directly to you.

What did your husband do that convinced you that reconcilliation was worth a try?

What steps did he have to take to insure that you yourself would stay committed to your marriage?

Did you have many up and downs? Did it get easier after the legalities were taken care of?

Did you constantly question whether or not you were making the right decision?

I am totally stuck in ambivalence right now. My marriage wasn't completely on solid ground before the affair so add to it an A and an OC and things don't feel very hopeful.

Cryn

My H fought like a tiger to keep me from kicking him out and divorcing him. He was more upset then I was in the early days. No matter how vile and mean I was to him, he took it. I would scream and rant for 10 minuts at him, and he would say nothing. Then when i shut up long enough to take a breath, he would say "I love you, I am so sorry". He never go defensive with me.

I told him that if he ever spoke to her, he would be gone. She went nuts. She harrassed and harrassed. She would call and beg him to talk t her and leave pathetic messages about being pregnant and alone. He did not call her back. I also was adament that oc would not be part of my life and he agreed with me immediately and he never waivered. It took time and lots of little things.

Ups and downs? Oh yes. There were days that I would be fine, and then he would come home to his bags packed and told to get the hell out. You bet there were ups and downs. When oc was born I told him to leave. Other days I would be fine. Ups and downs are normal.

In the early days I am sure I did constantly question. Afterall, this whole thing requires reflection. So yes, I did wonder why. Then I saw it for what it was, a mistake. Sure there is an oc involved, but guess what? Oc has nothing to do with me, my kids or my life. When I saw that the law protects us too, and that ow was not allowed to call us for anything, things smoothed out. When I saw my husband file charges against her cause she was mailing him, calling him, stalking him, it showed me he had us first. So yeah, I questioned everything. That is what this does to a marriage.

Look, your marriage is blown apart in bits right now. If now isn't the chance to be 100% honest about what is going on, when is? Now is the time to discuss not only the EMR/oc, but also the marriage itself. Get it all out on the table. If you are feeling that way, tell him. Why not?

NOW IS THE TIME TO DISCUSS THIS.

I remember telling my husband that if he even thought of bringing oc to this house that he would be tossed out so quick his head would spin. That I would never subject my daughter to the presence of the oc. He looked horrified. Not at what I said. But he had to face the reality of just what was going on. I remember telling him that ow wasn't just pregnant, but that there was a baby on the way. He was sick. He did not want me upset at all. I remember him telling me that he didn't even consider the child his. When tests showed otherwise he was dissapointed. He said it was the worst day of his life. He prayed that it wasn't his. Stuff like that helped. When we went to court to get cs set up, he didn't look at her. She had oc there and the judge had the child removed as it was not "suitable" for the child and "an obvouius tactic by ow."

Look, this isn't going to go away by any one word, or one thing. It will take time, and lots of thought, and discussion. Some days will be up some down. Only you know what you need. So be open and honest about it.

If you are not having contact, I can tell you that it isn't that hard. Once the legalities are set up, it's over. We have the money automatially put into her account each month. Done deal. She was told that any phone calls, letters, etc would be considered harrassment and would be dealt with accordingly, and she was.

That is why I am here, to let you know that this is not a big deal. It is a mistake. A big one, but just a mistake. Don't let it control you or your life. Life goes on and you can be happy and have it all. This is not fatal. So don't let it be more then it is.

Look, some people try get rich quick schemes, and lose everything. They made a huge error in judgement. Does that mean they are going to fall for another one? Probably not.

Only you can decide when it is to much. But I can guarantee you that as long as your husband is sincerely sorry for what he has done, and your needs are being respected, there is no reason not to have hope.

LynnG,

I have wriiten to you a couple of times I am not sure if you remember my story, but I do have a couple of other questions. I you know have filed for D from my H who is currently still living with his OW/OC. I also have an active PO against him which keeps him from coming to the house and got my CS set up quickly (all this due to his bad behavior once I changed the locks).

My H is steadily telling me that he wants to come home and be with his family. I have istened tohim tell me this for over a year now and yet he has done nothing to back it up. He has not moved out from OW/OC, not set up CS for OC, nor has he taken the DNA test. He has done absolutely nothing. All I hear daily is that he wants to come home and the more I write this I know the answer to my own question, but I need to hear it again from someone who has been there.

I was reading a website that Sunny posted to someone else about Dr. Joe Carver's "The Loser". Well after reading that article I found that my H had all twenty of the behaviors. That was just crazy, I mean he explained him almost word for word. There is no way of him changing if he does not show me hard proof that he is willing to save the M is there?

I feel like the real meaning of Battered Wife!! I know that I am willing to move on and believe me I am strong enough to and am doing it. I was just wondering and in a small part in the back of my mind holding out hope. I do know that I have to Divorce him because he will think he can just do it again and again.

sometimes I even wonder why we got married, but I know I was one of those women who loved him for what we could have, children, a home, and so on. He rushed me into it and I fell hook line and sinker which is what Dr. Caver says is a trait of "the Loser".

I don't know maybe this whole court thing just has me so confused. we went to court on yesterday and now I am second guessing myself.

I just never thought my life would be like this!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But Hey gimme your thoughts or comments - So SORRY to THREaD JACK!!

He can talk all he wants. Until he is out of there he is not doing a thing. Why not give him a list and until those are done, no way.

1. leave ow/oc
2. get dna test
3. get counseling
4. start dating slowly

Then give him a deadline. Tell him that if this isn't done in XX amount of time (and I don't mean a year, more like a couple weeks) that the door is permanently closed.

Hey, you have that bit of hope because you are a positive person. You have the ability to forgive and move on. You are hearing what you want to hear from him and that is keeping that hope alive. STOP. There is a point where your chain is getting jerked too. So give him a deadline. Either make moves to come home, or forget it. Then mean it and move on!

You married him cause you wanted to!!! Don't beat yourself up about it. Woulda-Shoulda-Coulda is a waste of time!!!!

I believe in being quite firm, tough and open. No need to pussyfoot around when it comes to your life. he is either with you or he isn't. PERIOD. There is no other way.

Eitherway, you will be fine. Go and enjoy the holidays and quit letting this steal happy days from your life!!

I knew you'd do it, you have a way of giving me just that extra push. I needed it today and I will give him a list and dead line of 3 weeks ONLY!! If nothing is done by then I am gone!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you for always being there when I need you. I haven't posted here for myself in awhile because I feel like such a fool sometimes for even listening to his crap everyday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thank you so much!

Love ya,

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"He never got defensive with me."

"But I can guarantee you that as long as your husband is sincerely sorry for what he has done, and your needs are being respected, there is no reason not to have hope."

LynnG,

Thank you so much for responding to my post. I am sitting here crying as I write this reply. You see, my husband gets defensive with me everytime I bring up the OW/OC. While I know that he is very sorry about what he's done I don't feel that he's respecting my needs as much as he should be.

I am quickly running out of faith in him and me. I guess the next step is to try and convince myself that I can make it without him.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Cryn <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

WHOA WHOA WHOA

If your husband is getting defensive, it could be that he is tired of feeling guilty. DO NOT BORROW TROUBLE ok?

So, do you spend all your time being upset about this? Or do you have moments where you are fine and he feels comfortable and safe? The reason I ask is that if you are on him constantly, he will get defensive.

Get a journal and start writing. Then ask him if you two can meet each Thursday at 7:00 and discuss issues for an hour. THEN MEAN IT. He has to know that not every conversation is going to be about the affair. Afterall, nobody wants to get beat in the head day in and day out. Also, this will keep you from obsessing about it also. Then stick to the hour. Have some questions and bring them up. DO NOT YELL AT HIM IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE ANSWERS. Write them down.
When the hour is up, go and take a walk or a shower or something. Just prove to him that you are not going to be about "this" all the time.

Now, another thing. As sick of this as you are, he is too. It is his life crashing in the waves too. Try to remember that. He is CHOSING to stay with you. Is sorry he has made this mistake. Try to see the plus in that.

What are you looking for? Is there a question you don't have answered? Has he been mean to you about this? Is he seeing oc behind your back? Is he playing games with you? What is it from him that you need?

I think what I see her most often with the newbies is the sense of hoplessness. This is where I say stand up, pull your bootstraps up and look him squre in the eye and CALMLY tell him what you need. Whatever you do DO NOT SPEND EVERYDAY bashing him with this. Anyone would get tired of it. Aren't you? He is too.

So. Get a journal and start writing in it. Come here and pour your heart out, ask questions, etc. Then formulate in your journal what it is you need and CALMLY discuss it with him.

Are you walking? Are you out having fun with your friends? YOU HAVE TO DO THAT. ENGAGE IN YOUR LIFE AGAIN. Trust me, this can wait a few hours a day!!! So, call a friend and hit the shops on Saturday, and laugh. Have fun. Make it a point to NOT let your mind go to the EMR. When you get home DO NOT be sullen and whiney and bemone your lot in life. NO WAY. You excitedly tell him about the shoes you bought, or the funny lady at the makeup counter, or whatever. Just engage in a normal conversation. Practice makes perfect!!! Spend some time with just you and for you.

After a few days of normalacy, gently tell him that you are suffering and need to talk. Then bring up whatever it is that is holding you back. He will be far more receptive to dicusss this with you if he feels that YOU are coming back to him.

What stinks about this is that most of the work is really on your shoulders. Do you WANT your marriage? Are you sure? If so, then fight for it. Don't let some stupid depression or pride steal your life. HE IS WITH YOU CAUSE HE WANTS TO BE WITH YOU. He made a huge stupid selfish error in judgement. He will probably be willing to work on it more effectively if he sees some progress to normalacy.

You stay in touch dear. There are so many people here, like myself, who do truly and really care about you. We want to see you happy. We can help you!!! You want to run something by us, go ahead!! We can give you different perspectives and then you can gage where you are at and go from there.

Make me a promise. Tell me that from now until Sunday, you will not mention this issue at all to him. Let things settle a bit ok? Instead, write in your journal. When your mind goes back to it visualize a big red flag and STOP IT. Then on sunday, when you are about to pop, come here and tell us what you are feeling, thinking, etc. Tell us what you did, your successes and your failures. Let us known what you need and we can help you get it ok?

If you need him to explain something, we can gather our experience and help you formulate a question that doesn't attack him. If you need reassurance, we can help you verbalize it in a way that isn't needy, but loving. Stuff like that.

Keep in touch!!

One more thing love,

You state that you know he is sorry for what he has done. How? How is he showing it? What has he said? What has he done to show you how sorry he is?

The reason I ask is that if you KNOW he is sorry, what is eating at you? I hate to say you are lucky, cause it sounds so trite. But him being sorry is about 90% of what you need to start moving forward.

Wow Lynn excellent response.

LynnG,

I have to mull your questions over for a bit and when I have more than 5 minutes peace available to me this weekend I'll respond.

Cryn

LynnG,
I enjoyed your words of encouuragement and story about your situation. i believe my situation is similar to yours. this whole thing hurts like hell and i can't see an end to this. i can't seem to function without thinking about it and having these conversations in my head with H and with the OW and it drives me crazy. i just found out less than 2 weeks ago. I do love my husband very much and i know he loves our daughter but to know their is OC out there just kills me. When he is with us, he makes me feel like a queen so beautiful and he is a wonderful father. but when he goes away he turns into someone else. he is in the military so she goes away alot. i don't know what to do or how to feel. HELLP!

Two weeks???? You are still in shock and don't need to make major decisions at all. No way.

The best advice I can give you is to be open and honest with him. Tell him everything you are feeling. Is child support for oc set up yet? If not, speak to a laywer about legal separation which puts your kids on child support BEFORE the oc. Hence oc doesn't get as much, leaves money in the nuclear family. You need to look into the legal aspects of this right now.

What about oc. Are you in contact? Is he? What are your thoughts on it? What are his? Neither of you can force the other into decisions, hence the POJA. Read that. I was adament that the oc not disrupt one single day of my life, nor those of my children. Had he wanted contact, we would have had a big issue to discuss. Would we have made it? I don't know, that was a long time ago. However, you can't shove your feelings and wishes aside. Talk this stuff out now.

Is the oc in the military? Is she in his unit?

My advice for one, two weeks from d-day is to read read read read. Get educated on everything. Child support laws and how they pertain to your situation. Learn about the emr if you want, Educate yourself on every aspect of this. Read this sight front to back, top to bottom. Read posts and keep going back. What you will find is that everyone has the same story, but different. You will find out that some things are almost universal when dealing with an ow. Then you will also find out that they are all completely different. So take notes and learn. Be prepared.

I believe in an aggressive approach when dealing with ow/oc from the start. Once the oc is born and collecting cs, things change rapidly. If you are choosing contact, make sure you get it all done legally and hold her to it. PERIOD If you are going no contact and she starts harrassing you, slap her with the law. See, the law works both ways. There is no way to get out of child support, so don't even try. You can however look into legal means to defer income which will effect the amount that is taken from your home. Learn. Educate yourself. But be aggressive in teaching ow that she is not part of your family and will not be treated as such and stick to it. If you are going to have contact, have the child picked up and dropped off at place different from your home or hers. A church perhaps, etc. That way the ow is cleanly out of your family. And remember, if you are chosing contact, she can't say no. The father has 50% rights to that child. He is just as important as she is. So if she whines about it, to bad. Do not be swayed on this.

Overall, I would suggest you write a journal and start taking care of you. It is VITAL that you know that you are just as important as anyone in this scenario. Lots of people say "what is best for the child" Meaning oc. Don't buy it. What is best for you and your child will be all you need to worry about. afterall, your lives are just as important and matter too. To many people want the wife and her innocent children to suck it all up and make everything comfy to the oc, never once worrying about the harm and hurt it does to the bw and her children. ALWAYS PUT THEM FIRST. Their needs, as far as you are concerned ALWAYS COME FIRST.

But slow down, breathe and take care of you.

You are brilliant as always LynnG!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
wiz

Thank you so much LynnG
I am really trying and trying not to focus on what has happened. I am getting ready to graduate. So i have been trying to focus on that and my dauhgter. The Ow is in the military but is not in Iraq where he is. They both got in trouble through the military. she is in the same city that i am in. H is intent on getting his wife and daughter back and says he wants nothing to do with her or this child. I just have all these questions but no matter what answer he gives it will hurt so does it matter that i get details? He is trying to come home on emergency leave to try and salvage our marriage but i am not sure i want him here. the last time i saw him was only 3 weeks ago when he came home on RR and it was all lies and he pretended like nothing was wrong but of course i didn't know until once he left. while he was home the ow called my house and i answered but just thought it was someone from work and she arranged for my H to see this baby and sign birth certificate but he failed to show so i believe she got pissed off and decided to file for child support and call me. i am just so sick over the whole thing. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LynnG,

I must agree with Wiz = You are BRILLIANT!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JT

LynnG,

I'm sorry it took so long to reply. Life got in the way. This is quite long so bear with me.

"So, do you spend all your time being upset about this? Or do you have moments where you are fine and he feels comfortable and safe?" It really depends on the day. Some days I am so busy living that I don't think about this nightmare but on other days I can't think of anything else. I believe that my husband has times where he feels comfortable however, he recently told me that he thinks that I will divorce him in the end anyways.

"Get a journal and start writing." I have an online journal. I write about the highs, the lows, my anger, my fears, my sadness. I also write about the positive/negative things that my husband does.

"Then ask him if you two can meet each Thursday at 7:00 and discuss issues for an hour. " This seems to be a real problem for us. Consistency is the issue.

"Is he sorry he has made this mistake." I do believe in my heart that he is sorry. Sometimes he has a really difficult time showing it though.

"What are you looking for? Is there a question you don't have answered? What is it from him that you need?" I gave this letter to my husband 3 months ago.

--------------------------------------------------
Dear ****,

I need so many things from you in order to fully put myself in the position to offer true forgiveness and be committed to reconciliation. If you do these things it opens up the possibility of us lasting, if you don't then you might as well leave now because this is what has to be done. So far you have only done a small part of what I need you to do. If you don't try to earn forgiveness then I can't give it.

You must understand how very much you have hurt me. I will never be the same again. I used to be a positive, glass half-full kind of person. No matter how bad it was, someone else had it worse. I always used to believe that things would get better. Now I cannot imagine my life getting better, I cannot imagine not feeling, this pain, this intensely, for the rest of my life. I never could imagine that you would do something like this to me, to us.

You must listen to my pain. You must hear me out and not make me feel like I am burdening you with the weight of this. I need you to repeat back to me what I say so that I know that you understand me. I need you to ask me specifically how I am feeling. Ask me if specific questions. Ask me if something is causing me to trigger. Tell me that I am not crazy for feeling the way I do.

It is important to me that you initiate conversations about your affair and about the oc. "Each time you bring up the violation, you let the hurt party know that it's on your mind, too." This means that I won't feel like I am dealing with this by myself.

When you apologize to me be very specific about what it is you are apologizing for and don't just apologize when I bring it up. Don't just give me an 'I'm sorry,' it sounds very insincere.

When I am hurt and angry at you I need you to hold me tightly and tell me how much you love and need me. I am still having difficulty believing that you love me and that I am the person you really want. I have huge insecurity issues right now.

You must discover what inside you led you down the path you chose and actively work to fix the problem. Whether that be continuing counseling or figuring out if you have a sexual addiction or dealing with the drinking. I need you to continue reading any of the books that have been started. I would also like feedback regarding what you have read. If you don't know why you did what you did then I cannot trust that you won't repeat the same mistakes.

I need to know that I am important and special to you. I do not often feel like I'm wanted by you. I need to hear you say the words. I need to hear you tell me I am beautiful, wonderful, amazing. I need to know why you love me. I need to know that you love me for me, not just for what I do for you. And, I need to hear these things without having to ask you.

I need you to set aside money for me. I need to feel a sense of security and independence. I felt totally dependent upon you when you filed for divorce, it scares me to feel that way.

I need you to answer ANY questions I have for you in my journal. This shows me that you are checking it and reading about what I am experiencing. Your answering tells me that you care.

There needs to be more US time. You cannot allow life to push that aside. You cannot allow work, etc., to infringe upon us spending time together, alone. It is something we have always seemed to lack.

I have suffered great humiliation and embarrassment because of your affair. Whether or not you care to admit to that, it is the truth. You have hurt more than just me by having an affair and an oc. First and foremost you have hurt our children. You have hurt my family and you have hurt yours. Don't for a moment think that you haven't. You must take steps to correct this and you must do it soon.

I want you to write her a letter. Not a letter that will be sent but a letter that I would like to read. I want you to tell her everything that you are feeling about yourself, her, the oc, me, our children, and what you have done. And for God's sake do not start it off with 'Dear ****'

I know that it often seems that I am just going to walk away anyway but you must understand that I am stuck in indecisiveness and your ability to work (and it will be WORK) will greatly contribute to helping me lean towards true forgiveness and reconciliation. On most days when I am doubting that our marriage will survive it is because I don't think that you are really up to the task. I do love you **** and I always have and I probably always will so if you are truly committed to me and us, please do what needs to be done.

Love,
****
--------------------------------------------------

"Has he been mean to you about this?" Not mean but hurtful. It hurts to hear the sarcasm in his voice. It sends me over the edge of reason. He has apologized profusely and I know that sarcastic wit/humor is his way but, that doesn't make it easy to hear when discussing ow/oc.

"Is he seeing oc behind your back? Is he playing games with you? " No and no. I think he'd rather die first than to see the ow/oc.

"Do you WANT your marriage? " Again, this depends on the day. Some days my husband is doing what needs to be done and then other days he isn't.

My husband and I have been seeing a MC since the discovery of the OC. She has not been easy on him at all. The biggest problem that we're finding is the lack of consistency on my husband's part. The MC says H starts off with good intentions but then quickly loses steam. She says that he also has a huge problem showing his emotions. She has been trying to get through to him since the beginning. From the outside it looks like he doesn't feel any empathy for others. She has never mentioned narcissism but she has mentioned Adult ADD. My husband has also realized what an extremely selfish person he's always been which seems to be part and parcel for an adulterer.

Last week I felt like I couldn't handle this anymore. I told my husband that if he couldn't give me the things I needed to feel secure and loved then I couldn't give him what he needed. I also told him that I wanted him to move out of the house. He said, "No, I don't want to. I love you." Since that time he has been working quite hard, trying to meet my needs. I guess when push came to shove he decided to step up. I hope it lasts.

I know that you and others have said that this is just a blip in life. That it's just a check in the mail but in our situation it is much more than that. It will be an entire alterration of our lives. We have always lived paycheck to paycheck so having to send CS will financially strap us to the wall. I will have to re-integrate my homeschooled children into the public school system. One of which is not prepared because of learning difficulties. I will be a SAHM no more. The side jobs that I've done to keep us living this life will no longer be enough to see us though.

This is huge. A big part of me feels that if things are going to change so radically for my kids and I that I should just become a single mother. I almost want to walk away and let him figure out on his own how to come up with the cash to pay cs and 50% of the uninsured medical costs associated with the OC. I'm so confused.

I don't know much but I do know this. This **** sucks bigtime.

I will be without internet service for about a week from tomorrow so if I don't post it's not because I'm ignoring you.

Cryn

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Crynsomuch ]</small>

What I see is a man who is clearly confused right now. He IS sorry and horrified by all that has transpired. You are on your way. Sadly, this whole process takes time. They don't call it a roller coaster for nothing!

Next time you feel like you need a hug ASK HIM. While I loved your letter, and it clearly stated your needs, at the time. He can't read your mind!!! So if you are having a bad day, tell him and ask for a hug. That way you are getting what you need, and he is able to give you what you need.

Wanting him to, off the cuff tell you he is sorry without you starting it??? That may be a way off. I hate to tell you this, but when you are in the emotional vacuum of this affair, the LAST THING he is going to do is walk up to you and open up the hornets next. He hates talking about it, thinking about it, etc. This will come, AFTER you and he are both feeling safe within the marriage. I know you are thinking that this should all be about you, and that is true, to a point. But the marriage needs to be healed, and that includes both of you. If he is feeling you are going to divorce him anyway, why would he make matters worse and push you closer to running out the door?

Honey, this man wants YOU. He has left ow/oc in the past and is doing counseling with YOU. And by your words, this has not been easy on him at all. So, instead of wondering if you are going to make it. Try your hardest to make it.

I really think if you were to put this on hold, until after the holidays, and allow yourself some time to just enjoy life you will be stronger. And by being strong doesn't mean you don't feel. It means you are able to deal from a more secure place. So, go to the conseling, and plan your holidays and HAVE FUN.

My husband would have been terrified to bring up the ow/oc in our home, while we were in the unsteady phase. No way would he have started talking about it. No way. It was after I was ok that he let his guard down and it really hit him. What he had jeopardized. What he had done. The initial shame and embarrassment at being caught is nothing compared to the onset of full fledged realization of all they have caused.

So give your marriage a chance. He has no idea what to do. He is right now scared to death and does not want to lose you.

I hate to say it, but the roller coaster does last a bit.

Please slow down and take some time to have fun WITH YOUR FAMILY. Let him see what he is to be fighting for.

If you are on guard 24/7 it will be to easy for you to give up cause he isn't trying and he will give up cause why bother to try........Please take some time and enjoy your family. It will make things clearer in the long run