.....and yet the ow and her plight is hardly a care for BW's. I know I couldn't possibly care less if she is down on her luck. To bad, so sad.

She and her oc get their piece of the hurt pie. Just as the family gets theirs. So, to quote KT and her widsom about hurting ow, ... "who cares?" It's her problem.

What if the existence of an effective support system for the OW results in her being a more stable, reasonable person, which results in her creating fewer future disruptions in the BW and FWH’s lives? If support of the OW (by her own family or friends – NOT by the BW and FWH!) benefits the BW, isn’t that something she might wish for?

curious,

It would be so much easier if we could compartmentalize these things....OWs problems over here....Family's problems in this pile....but unfortunately...they tend to bleed into each other terribly, no matter how separate we try to keep them....it's the nature of the beast. Even with no contact....various problems can still complicate this process.

The reason to "care" really has nothing to do with sympathy for the OW. Lynn's right....she gets her piece of the hurt pie....as she should. The reason to care is about who we are as people...it benefits US. It heals US. It smooths the path in front of US. It helps the people we love around us by exorcising the negative energy from our hearts that it takes to harbor hate/anger and other negative energy.

The energy we put out just loops back onto ourselves. Negative connections are what forgiveness is all about. We're not letting the bad guys off the hook....we're letting ourselves off the hook. Medieval literature speaks about the "worm that eateth from within". Pretty good
metaphor, for a grudge is a drain on us, on our own life, on our own vitality.

However, here in this place....on this board...there is a fresh raw pain that will take years to heal....and some...never will because the there is a flesh and blood reminder of that pain and a dark connection that cannot be severed. It makes this process ongoing and open.

I can't fault anyone who doesn't "care" about the other person in these travesties, it is tall order....but I wonder how that impacts their own recovery. I understand the tenaciousness and strength it takes for these ladies to hold their families together and defend them from this outside threat. I would never criticize them for their feelings. But I think it's a good idea to explore whether "caring" on some level actually can benefit each of us as individuals and balance this situation far better than not caring like in the example you presented.

I believe detachment is better than not caring. NOT caring takes energy...and detachment doesn't. Detachment frees you from caring too much about something that you wish to protect yourself/family from....it takes away it's power to harm you. Not caring gives it power because it requires energy.

Well hopefully the ow would wake up and realize what a mess she has been part of. If the MM realizes the damage he has done to his family and chooses to devote his time to helping his family heal, good for him. The ow needs to heal herself. Her predictament is not his problem.

Nobody says the ow shouldn't have support for her dilema. But asking wives to do so is not quite right. Nobody here has the time or care for whatever it is ow is going through.

I don't feel this is the right place at all to pontificate on how poorly the ow and the oc feel. They are not the cocern within the marriage. The children of the marriage come first.

As for the oc beng the child of the husband, and he turning his back on the oc? That is to bad. But in some cases necessary. If his wife and children are adament that they do not want any part of the oc, and he chooses no contact, he has made his choice hasn't he. He is saying that his wife and children of the marriage are coming first. I read where some say this is sacrificing the oc. Well it depends on how you look at it. Are you expecting him to sacrifice his marriage, his wife and children for the oc? Are you saying that the needs of the oc supercede those of the wife and children of the marriage? So if he stays with his family and chooses to support them through this mistake he made, the ow has to learn to live with that. Will it hurt her? Well, if it does, she should go to her own kind, her family, her friends. One can hardly expect his wife and family to care about her now can they?

This is not an easy decision, but the truth is that sometimes the truth hurts. The truth is that sometimes the MM sees the oc as part of the ow, and he does not want anypart of the ow...oc included. He does not see oc in the same light as he sees his children of the marriage. It is harsh. But this whole situation is harsh for everyone. And the responsiblity lies soley on the ow and the husband. None of this is the fault of the BW or the children of the marriage. Nor is it the oc fault. So if an ow is upset about his choice to have no contact, maybe she should revisit her CHOICE to have that child in the first place. If she was not ready and willing to be a single mother, maybe she shouldn't be getting pregnant while single. The CHOICE was hers.

YOu guys have hit the NAILS on the head.

Also, what if WH wants to be part of OC life and OW does not want him to be part of OC life because of BS, then I say F===k her. It is not her choice seh had teh choice when she SLEPT WITH A MARRIED MAN. SHE KNEW HE WAS MARRIED AND DID IT ANYWAY. Know she has NO say that OC has a STEPMOM live with it, that what I say.

Lynn,

This stuff comes up over and over on this board and is definitely triggering. I don't see any BW being asked to "support" an OW in any way on this thread. Quite the contrary....everyone agrees that she made her bed and that BWs need to focus on their own families...not the ow, and not oc. These posts are directed at improving the situation for BWs not OWs..and how the "well being" of the OW...while not their responsibility or concern...can still impact the primary family relationship in a good way....so there is nothing wrong with hoping that occurs or even facilitating that IF they desire to.

Not every post that desires healing all the way around...yes even for OW....is an attack Lynn. No one is looking for warm fuzzies....but let's face it....a healthy OW is less likely to cause trouble for the the primary family....and that's a good thing!

Some where along the line...ANY compassion towards an OW gets translated into UNsupportive of BWs...and it isn't.

I'm talking about "compassion" vs. "sympathy".

Sympathy is a misperception, which attempts to deny reality and consequence. It reinforces the "victim" mentality and supports suffering rather than alleviates it. Sympathy involves identifying with someone else's problems, which throws your energy into a resonance with theirs. Entraining your energy to theirs and ensnaring you in their problems.

Compassion, on the other hand, recognizes that they are in the hole by their own choosing and that only they can get themselves out again. You realize that they are there, because it is where they need to be at that moment. It is the exact expression of their present level of consciousness. Only by raising consciousness will they be able to alter their situation. You cannot do that for them, nor should you try to.

Compassion is a form of detachment from other people's negative perceptions. You see it only as something that is; the reality of their life at that moment. If they are suffering, then they will try to change the situation. If they are content, then the motivation to change will generally be lacking. Their perception of where they are will determine the choices they make. As a compassionate person, your involvement should be non-involvement. If you choose to display an act of kindness, do so because you want to, not because you feel you should. Be loving and kind because that is who you are and not because it is expected of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:

I don't feel this is the right place at all to pontificate on how poorly the ow and the oc feel. They are not the cocern within the marriage. The children of the marriage come first.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My feeling exactly!

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a healthy OW</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and there inlies the irony of it all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a healthy OW</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and there inlies the irony of it all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*******************
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OH! isn't THAT the truth!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL LOL LOL OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOL
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Starfish.......I think I know what you are saying & that is a pretty good description of compassion & sympathy. I think I said that even in my 'go off' post, "I might feel compassionate sometimes but sorry for OW, never!" (or something like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

THere were times (when we were trying to make C work) when I could have civil discussions w/ OW about OC, as though she were NOT who she really was but rather 'just another mother'.

But then......when we were not face to face....OW would switch (maybe due to other outside influences <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) & be STOW again. It was frustrating. That's when we began to realize what I think you are talking about.

OW had her OWN issues & they did not have to involve 'us'. They were her issues to deal w/---get your own therapist--type of thing. Were they related to 'us' probably, sure, but I didn't 'care' about them, neither did I ever want to hear about them nor be reminded of them. That showed us that OW was STILL unhealthy in her thinkng ect.

SO I think I know what you mean. We were in 'it' strictly for OC, NOT OW or her issues. I expected OW to have some unresolved issues, I am reasonable & mature I understand that, but it was NOT gonna EVER be dealt w/ like 2 married people would deal w/ it---ie: together.

She would have to do it on her own....& since that is not what she wanted...OW used OC as a 'tool' to bring out her own issues. It was crazy.

So yes, if OW was to ever get 'healthy' it would benefit everyone....C w/ OC would have continued & we could have gone on w/ that part of our lives.
******
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It's funny, we (H, me & OW) were in therapy together (don't ask <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) & I was @ the point where I told therpist.....let's just have it ALL out once & for all, so OW can say what she has to say, get it out & we can move on & focus on the real reason we are here---OC!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

THerapist agreed that it would probably have been very helpful for H & I, (because we were 'there' & could handle it) but that OW was not 'ready' for that & would not be able to handle it & would probably be too painful for her blah blah blahblahblah.......(madness I know!)

So instead we had to continue to try & work 'around' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> OW issues......who can do that? So that is why C had to stop.....OW destructive behavior towards me, us & our family. SO yah, a healhty OW would be benficial for OC & everybody, all around.

But that realization also had to come w/ the knowledge that I could not do that for OW. IT was all in her OWN power & control. OW still wanted to be the 'victim' in this so until she took responsiblity for her part.....she would NEVER get past it. kwim?

This is too long already...but I hope you get what I am trying to say.....just that I understand what you are saying starfish! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


ooo
xxx
kt

What I am talking about is pure indiffernce to the ow. I understand compassion and feelings as much as the next person. I have great compassion and care for the women here. I have heartfelt concern for my family and friends when the situation warrants. What I am saying is that the ow and her plight is not an issue that needs to be addressed or dealt with. The focus should be on the marriage and the family. The ow is not part of that.

You do have a great way to explain your message. I admire your writig style. I understand how you are using compassion. I believe more in indifference. The ow problems are moot and mean nothing to the marriage. That is the point I am trying to make here.

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: LynnG ]</small>

Lynn,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you: What I am saying is that the ow and her plight is not an issue that needs to be addressed or dealt with. The focus should be on the marriage and the family. The ow is not part of that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I thought I was saying much the same thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">me: Quite the contrary....everyone agrees that she made her bed and that BWs need to focus on their own families...not the ow, and not oc.

As a compassionate person, your involvement should be non-involvement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you favor "indifference" and I favor "compassion", but neither of us is advocating sympathy or tolerance and what we're saying is far more alike than different.

I sure hope this isn't viewed as "pontification" too...*sigh*

Shoot....this is tough crowd!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by john3479:
<strong> " Just J--------WHO CARES?

We are not here to bemoan the plight of any WILLING OW. We are here to offer a 'support network' to BW.

It MIGHT be a painful road for OW---so what?---it IS pain she CHOSE.

BW/BS on the other hand, NEVER had a CHOICE in this.

Oh & BTW: LOTS of OW are left w/ the WONDERFUL blessing of OC, what is BS left w/?
fractured reality,
shattered dreams,
broken heart,
confused & scared children of her own.

Yah, a few find a way to live happily ever after.

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Sure I can 'pity' OW sometimes, feel compassion for OW, yes, but I'll be DAMNED if I am gonna feel SORRY for OW or anything like that!!!!

Let OW clean up her OWN mess.

And I don't care how 'scared' (wah wah wah wah wah ) any OW is: there's a little something called 'self-control', we are ALL capable of using it. So there is no excuse.

I wonder if it was BW who frantically flew off the handle if OW would be so 'understanding'?

Yah right!
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I'm sure you meant 'nothing' by your post....only trying to show another POV. ..but trust me, we BW/BS, have seen enough OTHER POV to last us a life time, I think. "

This is the first time I have ever even read in here. I dont even know why I did today, but this comment by KT I thought needed to be addressed.

While its not my place since I have never been in this situation I would like the chance to respond.

justJs comment about a the OW believing the WS promises and her comment about hoping she has a support group in place are what I assume really set you off.

While I agree that the OW made the choice, and the BS did not, I think JustJs comment was more about the other party that didnt have a choice. THE OC.

The BW and WS can recover, how does an OC recover?

Just my thoughts. Bring on the 2x4s if you feel the need. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've tried to stay away from the controversy threads lately, but have to comment on this one. First of all why does the oc have to be a victum? Why does the oc have to have a cloud over there head for the rest of there life? Why does the oc have to feel different? If you take care of business before you have to reach that point of explanition and do everything you can in the right way and teach your kids and make sure they do feel loved (regardless of c or nc) the problems will be much less and an issue. The situation could be a lot worse. The parent could be terminally ill, or the child. The child could live in a abusive home. The child could have neither parents. It's all in the way you handle was the damage has been done. And when I say damage I'm not talking about the oc, but circumstances behind the oc. You know I've read a lot here and other places and I've learned so much through out the last year or so. I feel bad that my daughter has nc from her father and that her father gives a rats a** about her.....again it could be so much worse. I'd much rather him NOT be in her life out of obligation and her be treated bad then just leave her alone. It would be different if she was wanted by the family and that would be good for her. I see some people that take the oc out of obligation or to lower there expenses paid out for oc. As someone stated, well, we can't afford the additional money so we are going contact. H does not love this child, but hopefully in time he will learn too. I'm one of the lucky ones as my stbxh loves my daughter as he does our children together and he includes her in a lot....especially now that she is getting older. But even if that was not the case, I'd do what I would have to do to make it up to her. If you've got some mother throwing the fact that her father is a low life person that abondand her and destroyed there lives and is making that oc a victum then the child will become one. If you rise above it and learn to live with certain facts and create a heatlhy situation with it then your children will be muc better. I have my ill feelings over xmm but I'm not going to throw those or put them on my child. And yes, without getting into a debate how "to bad" stow statement, I do feel that any bio-father should be in a child's life. I don't feel however that any bio-parent that is not capable or willing to love a child is better off out of the child's life. IF the bw is unable to handle it, then again stay out of the child's life. No, it's not the oc fault, and it's not the bw's fault. It is just a fact that Adults choose where they go with these things and it's ajustments and facts that we all have to live with by the choice (in the first place) by the mm and ow choose to do. What happens after the fact we all have to live with the outcome of it and just rise above it and do what is best for our children to rise above it too. Okay........hopefully that came out right.
SideNOTE: I'm am in no way putting anyone down for choices at this point....just giving my opinion on the circumstances that could happen with the situation and how these kids (any of them bc or oc) can be damaged for life for it. If we just do the right thing with what we have to work with and do what is best for our children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SaphireBlueUs2:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BW and WS can recover, how does an OC recover? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont know how it will all work out for OC. This is what kills me the most. They never thought about the ramifications and the pain they would bring into their own childs life. Imagine having to start life with such issues?

I pray everyday that my husbands child never ever feels different around us. Never feels a void or not loved the same. I guess only time will tell.

I have spoken to adult OCs, and regardless of how good they were treated by their families, something has always felt off for them.

I dont know how they will recover or if they ever will. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Saphire, if the the bio-mother is an adult and you and your husband are adults (acting) then although there is going to be issues (that is a given even in divorce situations) they can be worked out. Oc should do just fine if your two are having c for the right reasons, and again the adults are adults.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> I get SO sick of hearing OW whining about how " HURT " they are. That makes about as much sense as me sticking my hand in a moving blender and then crying because my hand hurts.
When you get hurt because of your own stupidity then you just got what was coming to you. And to use the excuse " he lied to me " <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> does not excuse the fact that you were stupid enough to believe those lies. You already knew he was lying to one woman, how much arrogance ( or ignorance) does it take to believe that he wouldn't lie to you ??!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JT it takes pulling your head out of your A** to see the light again and realize what the heck happened. Just being honest here. It also took a brick to hit me over the head to make me wake up and see what it really was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just J:
<strong> Thanks, Star, for the clarification. You hit my meaning exactly on target.

Everyone else, it looks like my post was pretty triggering. I'm sorry for that and the pain that you may have felt on reading what I have to say. Seeming to defend an OW in this situation can surely bring up a lot of feelings; the pain of these situations is utterly stunning in its intensity and magnitude.

I am not trying to defend the OW's actions. What she did was unethical and terribly destructive. That she is now terrified by the consequences of those actions is, in my mind, utterly unsurprising -- and quite "right" in both the sense of being the "right" thing to feel, and also the "just" thing to feel.

I have great compassion for her. She is left utterly without support, a single mom with a child to support and no partner in the picture. I, too, am in that position, though I'm the betrayed partner and not the other woman. Still, our terror for our children must surely spring from the same source.

So, though I recognize that her own unethical actions have brought her to this place, I also I sincerely hope that she finds the support she needs to rebuild her life and find an ethical, compassionate path for herself and her child. Her terror is, if she can realize it, a wonderful guide. It can teach her, if she will allow it to, better choices for the future.

Lots of people don't learn from their mistakes, and almost none of us learn everything we could possibly learn from them. It takes a lifetime of contemplation to get there, but I hope she does. If she's the only parent the OC will have on a regular basis, the best thing that can happen for the OC is that she become the best, most ethical, strongest person that she can be. She has the opportunity. I just hope she has the support structure to do it. It's a hard, hard road she's got ahead of her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JustJ, exactly! It's what you do with what you have now and have learned that counts from here on out. Only I can make or break my own life. Only I can choose to raise my children a certain way and teach them from right and wrong now. No matter the circumstances, raising children on your own is hard. It's not the hardest thing in life to do, but it's not the easiest either. Let's face it, raising kids with or without two parents is a hard thing as they are your responsiblity and it's up to us to do what is right and wrong in order to teach our kids to be the best person they can be. Just for the record, Yes I did think of xmm's kids. They were a big part of my thought process. AND IN MY CASE (not talking for every ow here) that is more than he did with my kids already here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Saphire, if the the bio-mother is an adult and you and your husband are adults (acting) then although there is going to be issues (that is a given even in divorce situations) they can be worked out. Oc should do just fine if your two are having c for the right reasons, and again the adults are adults.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats just it. The mother will not speak to me at all. The tension is thick, my kids feel it. I am certain the OC picks up on it as well. When we pick up OC I will ask a question concerning OC, since I am sharing in her life, she will just answer the question abruptly, never looking at me. I find that sad. I did not disrupt our lives. I did not create this situation. Yet, she acts as if I am the one to blame. My husband just shrugs it off like "Oh well, her loss", unfortunately what he doesn't get is that its everyones loss.

Communication is key. We will never be "friends", but we should be able to have an amicable conversation and be on the same page for the sake of all of the children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SaphireBlueUs2:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Saphire, if the the bio-mother is an adult and you and your husband are adults (acting) then although there is going to be issues (that is a given even in divorce situations) they can be worked out. Oc should do just fine if your two are having c for the right reasons, and again the adults are adults.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats just it. The mother will not speak to me at all. The tension is thick, my kids feel it. I am certain the OC picks up on it as well. When we pick up OC I will ask a question concerning OC, since I am sharing in her life, she will just answer the question abruptly, never looking at me. I find that sad. I did not disrupt our lives. I did not create this situation. Yet, she acts as if I am the one to blame. My husband just shrugs it off like "Oh well, her loss", unfortunately what he doesn't get is that its everyones loss.

Communication is key. We will never be "friends", but we should be able to have an amicable conversation and be on the same page for the sake of all of the children. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right 100% with that. Also, what if the oc gets sick and it's just not a small sickness, it's a high fever and all, and your administering meds to that child. She needs to take that attitude away and hold on because your helping in making that child feel better and then when she takes child back she needs to listen to what your saying to be accurate on the meds etc. Same goes for the feedings. This is a bad example, but..........my babysitter was talking to me before she left and I was only half listening to her as I was tired and trying to get her out of there to settle in for the night.........well she had just fed my baby and because I was not listening I fed her again, and low and behold she threw up all over me the couch and the carpet. I gave her a stomach ache that she did not need to have. If I would have just listened..........I would not have made my baby sick and I would not of been cleaning puke up all over my living room. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />