Quick recap:

OC is four and a half. Contact has always been on again off again depending on whether or not XOW is upset with us. We have re-established contact recently. Until now XOW has not allowed any contact for eight months. There was a question of sexual abuse in her home (XOW was living with her parents - her father sexually abused her while she was a child - OC was acting inappropriately so we took her to the dr. - no penetration but doc seemed suspicious), she retaliated by not allowing us to see or speak with OC. My H and I have had some issues in the past few weeks because OC shows up to our home in clothes two sizes too small, did not have a winter coat, lives in a two bedroom apt in a trashy end of town with XOW's mother and brother, their house is a complete wreck (ashtrays, trash, rotten food...), and OC seems to be lacking proper nurturing and care etc. These things are frustrating, but my H and have been trying to take care of her needs the best we can when she's with us.

My H had a meeting on Friday (a home visit) with OC's preschool teachers. They expressed several concerns:

1. OC misses, on average, two days of school a week.

2. OC refuses to eat at school.

3. OC arrives an average of 15 mins. late everyday XOW drops her off.

4. OC arrives looking as though she has not slept and will fall asleep in school several times a day.

5. OC has not met the Four Year Milestones. She cannot draw shapes, she cannot write her name, she does not know the alphabet, she cannot ride a bike, she cannot follow two-part directions, she does not retain new information, she cannot follow the school routine, there's more but I can't remember.

6. OC appears lethargic and confused most of the time. She will "blank out" when the teachers try to discuss things with her.

7. She will not partake in group activities.

8. OC suffers from low self-esteem.

Her teachers expressed serious concern about her attendance and behavior and informed us that they have tried repeatedly to resolve the issue with XOW. The teachers seem thrilled to have another parent to deal with. Some of their other concerns raise a red-flag for us.

We are thinking we should make an appointment with OC's pediatrician to discuss possible medical problems. (Hypoglycemia? ADD?)

Trying to get OC to eat has always been a problem. She takes the tiniest bites I have ever seen, will gag on bites bigger than a grain of rice, and will not eat unless you coach her through the entire meal - UNLESS her meal comes from McDonalds, or consists of chips, cookies, ice cream, soda, or other junk. Then, she stuffs her mouth full and doesn't seem to have any problems with gagging or falling asleep (which she does frequently while eating).

My H is livid! OC is six months younger than our daughter together. Our daughter is reading, writing, riding a bike, knows her phone number, etc. and her teachers commend us everyday on how well she is doing. Eight months ago OC was at a comparable level regarding milestones and motor skills, now OC is seriously lagging behind. XOW has not done anything to rectify the situation, and seemingly cannot find the self-discipline to even get OC to school consistently.

My H spoke with her teachers to let them know that he's lucky to even get to see OC and asked them to begin noting any concerns, changes in behavior or skills, and the times the teachers speak with XOW about concerns. OC goes to HeadStart which is a federally funded preschool program. Do they have the authority to get Social Services involved for the concerns I've listed? Are these concerns as serious as my H and I feel they are?

Taking into consideration the state of her home everytime we've seen it, the question of whether or not OC was sexually abused while in XOW's care last year, XOW's inability to get her to school or feed her properly, OC's apparent lack of sleep, and everything else - is this enough for us to involve social services?

Is is better to let HeadStart do it if they can?

Please, some one help me help this little girl!!

Call CPS immediatlly and tell them everything you just posted. This child needs help. Don't worry about Ow retaliating, you need to do what you can to protect that child.

Good Lord, YES, make the call! (Gagging could be a physical problem, or it could be a reaction to being forced to give oral sex)

In CA (don't know about your state), teachers are "mandatory reporters" meaning they are SUPPOSE to call all suspicious cases, and this is one!

I hope you have visation legal so she can't stop you from seeing her, but yes, call CPS NOW!!!! This is not right! To many red flags! Head Start is involved? GOOD!!! Headstart is a government program and hopefully they can help push it faster. Get that child out of that house!

I don't want to over or under react.

SOME of these should cause concern while others I would not be concerned about. I am a home educator & have 3 kids. The 4 yo milestones, while great, are only averages & some kids will be ahead & some behind. Personally, those things would NOT bother me.

THE nutrition & eating habits would very much bother me. She can obviously stay awake enough to eat fast food & NOT gag. (it is created to taste good (ie: Supersize Me ( a movie) but is not in any way good for you) So maybe when she is having normal food, she is being dramatic so that she will not have to eat it & will get what she wants (fast food). kwim?

I agree w/ Jenny that it could be a sign of something more sinister but then why not gag ALL the time?

The blanking out part...........could be that things are being discussed that she does not want to talk about or respond too.....(our OC would 'clam up' whenever there was talk about 'family') OC is probably starting to realize things are not exactly 'normal' in her little world. She does not live w/ mommy & daddy like other kids ect. ALso, OC coudl be downright confused about the subject (if it academics).

WE all know it is NOT healthy for children to have to go between 2 homes (but we make the best of it) & even worse when the 2 homes are so inconcsistent (OW pulling visits whenever ect).

Falling asleep @ school----that would indicate NOT getting enough sleep @ 'home', I would be concerned about that.

The missing school days I would not normally be concerned about since it is pre-school EXCEPT if it is being done inconsistently (various days during the week) & for no apparent reason. Children ARE better off in the care of parents rather than teachers BUT if OW is working anyway & OC is not getting the proper care during the day.....then there is cause for concern.

The 'low self-esteem'....(our OW reported the same condition in OC) I think self-esteem is over rated BUT.....OC needs to be given things that she CAN do to earn some self-esteem. Low self-esteem is more likely when the child feels no value in themselves or incompetent. Give OC a task (like a simple chore) so that she can feel valued & needed in the home. Self esteem is not just 'given' it is 'earned'.

According to how you have described things....I would guess that OC does not have to do anything for herself in her mothers home therefore feels no real value. She is not even given academic instruction so does not even feel good about those accomplishments because there are none.

{for example, in our home there were 3 kids, they had age appropriate chores, were responsible for dressing themselves & could do other tasks as well, serve their own breakfast cereal, brush teeth & pick up toys. OC however, was used to being waited on & did not even have to make her needs known, they were anticipated. She used to WAIT for us to dress her (@ 4.5 yo) w/ o even asking for help, she would just stand there & wait. Our home was run much more differently than she was used too. And 2 of our kids were YOUNGER than OC. Of course she got used to it & became very self-sufficient, more independent & happier while w/ us. Her self-esteem increased in accordance to her skills & had only become 'low' when she realized the things that she was NOT capable of doing but yet her 'little brother' could. kwim? The therapist explained these things to us & OW}
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I really feel for you & this OC. It sounds so similiar to our OC. It makes me sad. I think if you continue to love her, include her & bring her into your home & family you will begin to see improvements. She will flourish in the presence of a stable, healthy & loving home environment (even if only part-time)

Personally, I would NOT mention these issues to OW, only because of my own experiences. OUR OW, used these same issues as excuses to try to discontinue C w/ OC, OW said that ALL OC problems were due to OC spending TOO MUCH time w/ us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Claimed OC became 'emotionally unstable' becuase of her (OC) father's prescence in her life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Take her out & teach her to ride a bike. Play follow the leader (to learn to follow directions) give her lots of paper & art supplies to learn to color & write better. GIve her papers w/ her name on them to trace. Buy those big fat colorful workbooks filled w/ traceable letters, shapes & numbers to do @ home (your house). Let her play & be a kid. kwim?

What do you think?

xoxoxoxoxo
kt

hi

I would make the call to social services!, Do you everything documented? You should do that and if you don't have vistation legally establish. I would go down to the court and file for joint custody! Then if she denies you vistation she will in contempt of a court order!


Dawn

I want to thank all of you for your responses....

NeedToMoveOn: Yes, a visitation agreement has been filed with the court, my H and XOW are scheduled to appear before a judge to finalize the paperwork this Thursday. My H is unsure as to whether or not he should say anything about his concerns at that time or if he should wait to see how OC's behavior changes in the next few months.

Dawn71: Yes, we are documenting EVERYTHING. We have also asked for documentation from OC's school regarding all of their concerns, the days she's missed and the number of times they have tried to rectify the situation with XOW.

KT: I am consistently amazed at how similar our situations seem at times! I too do not want to over or under react. I do not want to be lumped into the group of parents that "falsely allege abuse" in the other parent's home.

Our family eats meals together everyday. We spend a lot of time planning and preparing healthy meals. My H and I have long had our suspicions that OC is very accustomed to fast food on the go. The gagging issue has been going on for quite some time, and I agree that it is usually only a problem when she is eating something she doesn't want to eat. However, we are going to make an appointment to discuss it with her pediatrician. We would also like to inform him of the concerns from her school.

Missing school days....well, XOW is very young (23 now) and has always had difficulty being a moderately responsible person. My H and I believe that OC misses so many days simply because XOW doesn't want to deal with it. XOW will sleep all of the time and let Gramma deal with OC. XOW does not have a job and attends school, but in our past experience, she misses much of that as well. Also, the teachers are concerned that because OC is already so far behind, if she continues to miss days, she will not be ready to begin kindergarten.

Low self-esteem....Our situations sounds extremely alike in this regard. OC is waited on hand and foot, any inappropriate behavior (such as throwing toys, calling names etc.) is either ignored, or turned into a discussion about how OC is "feeling" to make her want to act out. Now, I believe that a child's feelings are important, but OC continues to act out toward her mother and other children (at school). XOW does not believe in discipline of any kind, this has long been an argument between the three of us, we believe discipline is a necessary part of raising a child. We stick to one minute time out for each year of age (4 yrs = 4 minutes). I think that the lack of discipline at XOW's house has caused OC to accept no responsibility for her actions.

OC learned to recognize and name the letters in her name over the weekend. It was a struggle, OC tried everything to get out of it. Including blanking out. But after she learned it she was so proud! We all jumped and danced around.

It was the first thing OC told her mom on the phone the next day "Mommy, I learned my name!"

So, I agree. She needs us to help love her and educate her. We will continue to do so to the best of our capabilities.

We will make an appt with her pediatrician to make sure he's aware of our issues.

My H was stopping by her school this morning to make sure they are aware how concerned he is. Perhaps they can help us decide how best to handle the situation.

Hugs,
AVNL

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: aVictimNoLonger ]</small>

Document everything! Then take it to your lawyer and file for C!!!

That poor kid!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aVictimNoLonger:
<strong> Low self-esteem....Our situations sounds extremely alike in this regard. OC is waited on hand and foot, any inappropriate behavior (such as throwing toys, calling names etc.) is either ignored, or turned into a discussion about how OC is "feeling" to make her want to act out. Now, I believe that a child's feelings are important, but OC continues to act out toward her mother and other children (at school). XOW does not believe in discipline of any kind, this has long been an argument between the three of us, we believe discipline is a necessary part of raising a child. We stick to one minute time out for each year of age (4 yrs = 4 minutes). I think that the lack of discipline at XOW's house has caused OC to accept no responsibility for her actions. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to laugh because it IS so similiar.

OC 'bad' behavior was ALWAYS because of OC 'emotional instability' due to father being in her life! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> OC even went through a phase of 'lying'. Of course when it was about OW, OC was ONLY confused <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but if it was about US, OC was telling the TRUTH & WE were lying & not to be trusted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

IF Oc acted it out, OW took no responsibility, it was always becuase of us. Funny thing though, OC rarely 'acted out' so severely @ our house. She just acted like a normal kid, you know, bickering over toys w/ siblings. LOL

Eventually the 'pattern' was relaxation & ease @ our house & stress @ OW home. OW was NOT a high stress person, but OC would feel the tension anyway & would become stressed @ her mom's home.

Concerns about NOT upsetting mom, censoring herself so as NOT to look like she had too much fun @ dad's house so she would NOT upset mom. Plus you mentioned OC/OW lives w/ OC family? You don't know what could be said to OC about your family or H. OW family made nothing but NEGATIVE comments TO OC about my H-----uh hello that is OC DAD! SO we knew it was hard for OC. OC didn't know what to do about it or how to deal w/ it.

We would mention it to OW but she didn't get it, didn't get that TO OC, H is her DAD & they are saying BAD things to OC about HER DAD! It was sad.

IF there was some way you could get full custody then go for it! I just dont' know if THIS woudl be enough, she might not be getting the best care w/ OW but that does not mean that CPS would consider it enough to remover OC from OW custody. kwim?

I think I would mention it to a judge, but w/o a lawyer that could be a big risk if you are not prepared. Maybe H can mention it to the judge in a casual way that he is concerned about the care OC is receiving or not receiving @ home. (or that the pre-school is concerned) Request MORE time w/ OC so that OC can be better supervised or something?

Maybe the preschool staff would be willing to make a statement or present a written statement to the courts of their concerns?

Ask the school if they notice a DIFFERENCE between when OC has coem from yoru home & when OC coems from OW home. Or do you only have OC on the weekends?

xoxoxoxoxo
kt

Makes me miss OC. {sigh}

KT - everything you described about OC in your sitch is exactly what we deal with! Crazy.

We do get OC for Weds overnight every week and since we've only been involved for a month, it's a little soon for any huge difference.

HeadStart said they would document EVERYTHING for us. We will be picking up reports from their office once a month. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think my H has decided not to say anything to the judge at the meeting because we aren't prepared to prove XOW is unfit. We need more time. OC's school has agreed to work with us, and my H has decided to make XOW aware of his concerns to give her an opportunity to change things before he raises a stink. We don't want to take OC away from her mom, we just want her (OC) to be taken care of. Perhaps XOW isn't aware that this type of stuff isn't normal, OC is her first child and she is pretty young (23). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It'll be a nice change simply to have an agreement filed with the court. XOW did give my husband joint legal custody, which means he makes 50% of all decisions. So, if XOW doesn't clean up her act and start behaving like a responsible parent, we can always go through the courts.

Until then, we continue to do our best to make OC feel loved and protected. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for all the support you guys!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps XOW isn't aware that this type of stuff isn't normal, OC is her first child and she is pretty young (23). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Poor excuse. I was 18 when I had my first, none of my children had those problems. Your OW needs someone to give her a wake up call on how to treat her daughter