</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dealan-de:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As ANY mother would do for their child.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JM - so sorry, but VERY untrue. A more aptly put statement would amend that to say, "As most mothers would do for their children."

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am so glad your ds has such a staunch supporter as you are! But unfortunately, A LOT of us here have STOWs as opposed to having FOWs. That "f" for former means so much to me personally. That is your part in the affair that you take responsibility for and therefore can be forgiven of. Not that you need MY personal forgiveness - it's just that it...oh jeez...what are the words? It makes you approachable. It makes you...um...what/how do I say this??? It enables me to say, "yep, that sucks all the way around, but hey?! She's a great person now."

I've a friend on one of these boards who happens to be a FOW. I knew she was a FOW from day one. But her past decisions/behaviors, while they sucked rocks, were PAST. Her decisions/behaviors TODAY and her determination to make certain she NEVER harmed anyone else with that kind of selfish behavior again is what endears her to me. I ADORE her. I'd trust her with my babies...and more, I'd trust her around my H (as far as we're supposed to according to SH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What/how the ow feels about anything doesn't really matter anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since there are FOW here that are trying to re-build their own marriages, some of whom have OC, I think their viewpoints/feelings DO matter. Very muchly so. They have as much a right to be here as I do, or as anyone who wants to make their marriages stronger and safer do. JMHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can see my mom now..."Respect, courtesy, and manners!!! You don't have to like what you hear, but you DO have to mind what you say!" I agree with her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen OB1. No wonder you have a sensei's initials. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

- Kimmy </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, Kimmy, I know what you mean. It is sad that there are kids out there that have nobody to be their champion/supporter. And that's life in general - OFF these boards, and hopefully far away from any of our lives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
And I feel bad for those who DO have psycho OW/xOW, and being where I am in life - if I could offer any words of support to STOP that behavior, I would and I do. Yes, there are some nutjobs out there and maybe they deserve the label, but what I take offense to is poo-poohing ANYTHING that a FOW/xOW has to say because "they were an OW, anything they say is crap" type mentality.
I don't even like the label xOW. But that's ME. That's me trying to put the past where it belongs. I'm so far away from being an xOW, my son is 8, and I haven't been an OW for most of those 8 years. If in my lifetime I end up being known as one thing, I'd rather have it be that I was a great mom, not an xOW.

JM, your are so right. My label as ow is not as long as yours, but I feel the same as you do. What I've accoplished since then is far greater than the past. I've done what I've had to do to make things right with everyone! Thank Goodness I can overlook the past and not hold it against every person that is in this situation that was on the other side of the fence.

Joshmom:

EXACTLY!!! You will be known as a great mom and not an ow. Cause of the life you live. But you will always be the ow to that couple. Just as they are living their lives, moving on, etc. so to should you. You don't need to care/worry what they think/do just as they don't need to care/worry about you. You are not living your life thinking of what is best for XMM are you? THAT is why everyone moving on, separate is for the best.

NTMO:

If everyone acted with Courtsey, etc. AFTER the oc is known, it would have to go both ways. The ow would have to respect the choice of the couple, no matter what that may be. But it never is that way is it? OW usually get angry, and lash out.

You state"....I can overlook the past and not hold it against every person that is in this situation that was on the other side of the fence..." So you are saying that you don't hold a grudge against the wife who never did anything to you? Why would you hold a grudge against a wife who you cheated with her husband on? I am sure I read that wrong. Or, why would you hold a grudge against any wife who was cheated on? Afterall, they are just like the oc, innocent victims.

Lynn, what I meant is there is always two sides to every story. Without getting into a lot of borning details, I don't hold a grudge towards xmm's wife. She is who she is and it's no concern for me. I DID respect there decisions to no contact. My daughter had surgery in December. They still don't know. My daughter was in the emergercy room 3 weeks ago and very sick. They still don't know about that. When I daughter started crawling, they don't know about that. When my daughter said "dada" for the first time, xmm does not know about that. Just because xmm's wife is someone I don't like it has nothing and I mean NOTHING to do with xmm or the affair. It was from a long time ago and NO I was never friends with her. She is someone that I would have never been friends with. Just becaue I made a mistake does not mean I'm marked for life. Nor does it mean I'm a bad person. Nor does it mean I'll do it again. Like obratti said it's what you do in the here and now. You can't take back the past. You can only learn and do the right things now and not make the same mistakes. And for the record even though I do not like xmm's wife I still feel that she did not deserve what xmm and I did. Everyone in this world has done something that is not right and hopefully they have learned from there mistakes. You can't possibly continue to think the way you do about ow in general. It's wrong. And back to why I made that comment. When it came down to it, bw and xmm both took part in NOT protecting there family, but down and out screwing my child over (or at least tried). It was a group effort although I blame xmm more as he is the one who is responsible and had more to loose by doing what he did. I tried to settle with him before the baby was born. I was willing to take less than the state guidelines and not all that I was entitled to by law if he would take the dna test without a fight and not rack up an attorney bill. He choose to do what he did, not me. He had choices. Not everyone has a problem with me Lynn. In fact few do. You being one of them. It seems like everytime a ow/xow post anything and you see it, you just throw in the contact vs no contact thing and how every ow is a victim and slefish. Regardless if it applys or not. You can't get off that. In fact I don't think there has been a thread in months directly involved with that subject. I know I loose my pateince with you Lynn and that is why. You can't see past your feelings of your ow and see that not all ow are yours. Nor can you see past that the bw was betrayed by these two people and justify all the actions made by them right or wrong. That's like saying well, johnny's teacher gives him a hard time in school so it's okay if he cheats on that test he took today. I encourage that behavior becasue his teacher does not like him. And no I don't hold a grudge. I don't really care about how she feels about me or my child. I don't have to live with her. I also know that eventually it will stop one way or another. It's not my place to pay anyone back.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

actually I have been a BW alot more and a lot longer than I ever held the role of WS. And I am no different than MM. He and I both made mistakes.

I am sure his wife sees me as an OW and I am sure my husband sees him as OM. Thats a given. As far as the rest go, Most have move past it and we are just "little ones" parents, Thats all nothing more or less. I am not an OW , But I do feel it is hurtfull to lump them all the same, Because some of these women are wayward spouses and hearing things like this do not help. When a marriage falls apart, two people involved have to put it back together. That includes that Wayward spouse. If someone wants to save the marriage, the WS must be worth saving. Dontcha think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> People do move past lables, It may take time, but they do. Many of his family and friends also see me just as a little ones mother. Because They have moved on as well. I am treated with respect and kindness always as much as I give kindness and respect.

I guess you people just don't get it at all. You want to paint it all as a pretty picture, one big happy extended family....go ahead. hardly reality, but whatever.


I see things entirely different. The reality of the ow is that they will lie, twist, manipulate and pretty much do whatever they can to twist a knife. I see many new BW on this site who are angry and hurt and upset and you think it does them good to hear what it is that YOU need? I wonder what some poor wife thinks when she is chastised for lumping together ow's.!!!!!!

GMAB.

How absurd that we now have a whole post about how offended some ow is for being lumped together with the others........and some wife was asking a question why???????????

So I will take the hard line. I will make dang sure that while some BW is dealing with REALITY that she isn't making plans from La-La land. That she isn't allowing herself to be set up for a fool, that she isn't going to get trampled.


WOW, now ow's are going from ow to just a little ones mother. You make it almost sound like it is sweet. Adultery being so wholesome and all......

Sorry. Don't buy it.

Lynn Sorry you don't get it. I did not expect you to get it. I have no idea why I wasted my keystrokes on your questions when I KNEW you'd twist it and make it other than what it was. How very very silly of me. I guess it's hard for you understnad that some who do have contact have made it work for all there kids. Apperntly it took all the adults to do that or it would not be working. There is no talking to you or seeing you other than hating (or in your words don't care) about anybody that has made a mistake. That is very sad but hey I guess we all have our quirks.

It's my personal theory that the only reason ow come here is for the same reason that bs do(this does not include the newbies). It's for validation.

Let's face it. If I (a bs) stand up in the middle of a crowded auditorium and state that my husband cheated on me and has a child with ow but he has given up the ow and committed himself 100% to our marriage and is going above and beyond to prove himself, many people would think I'm nuts for staying but the majority would support my/our effort. How's that for a run on sentence?

If an ow were to stand up in a crowded auditorium and state that she had an affair with a married man and that she bore a child that is his, I'm pretty sure the crowd's response would be different. That's reality. You can't put a spin on it no matter how you try. Society views that woman differently than they view the married man. Fair? No. Truth? Yes. Want proof? Look toward the media.

I post on "our" board and others like it because in reality I'm not ok with what's happened in my life. But, if I convince you that everything is fine with me or that it will be fine in your situation I in a way convince myself. If I were really ok with everything I wouldn't be here and neither would most of us.

I think LynnG is an exception to this rule because I think she has committed herself to the task of advising the newbies. She's gone full circle and now this is her personal mission (Thank you so much, Lynn). And, of course we all know that the newbies come here for a different reason. They are seeking anything and anyone that can calm them, reassure them, listen to their hurts, hear their vents and be able to completely understand. They desperately want/need to know that they're not alone.

But if I and most of the longtime bs were ok we'd be gone. Sure friends are made on these sites but they would become Email buddies, IM buddies or phone buddies. Most of us return again and again simply because we need validation among our peers. We need to keep ourselves convinced that the choice we've made is the right one and that we're not crazy.

Ow do the same thing on their own boards. They seek validation to prove to themselves and their peers that they're really ok with what has happened. Again, it's the case of "if I convince you, I convince me".

Quite a few bs go to the ow board to try and convince the members that they(bs) aren't bad people and that their opinion matters. It's bs really trying to prove themselves once again. The same thing can be said for the ow that come to MB. Both are guilty. It involves both sides ever so politely (I say that with a grain of salt) trying to prove that their side is right and the other is wrong. That they ARE fine and in control. It's both sides trying to force their "OK-ness" on the other.

Ladies on both sides: If you honestly were as fine as you all claim to be would you really need to be here or there? I don't think so but, that's JMHO.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Crynsomuch ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurt5-04:
<strong> Why do you think that OW's that post on BW's questions and opinions feel they need to stand right up on their soapbox and ramble about trying to see this and trying to see that? They post their opinions about what WE should be doing and feeling. They post comments that are not really wanted. Why do you feel they need to do that. OWs NO NEED TO RESPOND TO THIS but I know of one that will....I really feel that OWs and BWs don't mix, like oil and water. Ows can call me immature and this and that, but I guess in my opinion, your opinions about me or any other BWs don't matter. Ows are the ones that did things wrong, NOT the BWS who chose to stand with their H's and try to piece their marriage back together. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">seems this thread has taken a turn but to respond to the og post:

I THINK that the OW who post here, for the most part are FOW & I THINK the reason they get on thier 'soapboxes' is to try & make/help us BW see that they are no longer this STOW that we might think they are or that WE are dealing w/.

I THINK that they want to justify so much that they are NOT a STOW. I THINK that they feel bad for their past behavior, embarrassed about it & so try to give all this proof about how they are NOW that in no way resembles (maybe) who they were when they were still an OW.

OR proof that who they are NOW, in no way resembles a STOW. kwim?

But by trying to diassemble the 'myth' there is an oversight...if you are NOT an OW any more, than ANY comments made about an OW would not apply to you anyway but you still react to it. So is it really US who are labeling YOU or is it YOURSELF who is labeling you?

Of course this analysis does not apply to any current STOW's that post around here but I have't seen many lately.

Personally, I don't think it is necessary just as I do not go to TOW to try & help/make 'them' see that I am NOT a STBW.

We cannot MAKE anyone think/see anything. They either realize themselves over time or they won't & there is nothing you can do about it. Even though I THINK this----I still catch myself EVERY time IRL---trying to get others to see things MY way!!!! LOL

And I have also realized that SOME things will have to be left as...agree to disagree...topics.

That's MY pov.
kt

cryinsomuch: I did NOT see your post until after I posted mine......but apparently WE are SO on the same wavelength!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

dbl pst

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

There is one reason why OW come here: Because they CAN. There is a movement on the TOW board, that began with some of the mods leaving...to rid that board of BSs and any viewpoint that challenges wife bashing or MB bashing. Controversial subjects are simply shut down or disappear. The new attitude is that "It's an OW support site" and other POVs are not welcome. Having seen the results....I'm not at all sure that was a good idea. However, I understand Lynn's arguments that this is a Marriage Building site and that the controversy and chaos created here by SOME OWs is unwelcome where BW are still really hurting...and it should be. It should not be tolerated and I urge those of you who feel offenced to use your "whistle" rather than enter the chaos.

Having said that...I suspect I will never believe that there are people who don't matter and who are nothing. I think it's important that Lynn used those words "within" the context of rebuilding a marriage which is so very hard after an OC is born. Not everyone will or desires to choose contact. In such cases...DETACHMENT, which is really what Lynn is describing(though perhaps not so tactfully) is essential to achieving the kind of peace required to accomplish that and restore security to the family.

Starfish, I am glad this site, this section in particular, is not like the TOW board, for many reasons <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

I find ignoring, purposly hurting or aiming rude comments to anyone/everyone because you are upset at another person and they wear "the title" well, its like racism. I also think the ladies here should be proud that they are kind, considerate and care enough to welcome and help the OW that come here------ even though we are not welcome and treated like utter garbage at "their" site.

I would rather be here on the high road with the fine and kind hearted ladies HERE at MB than shunning and being nasty like many of the TOWers---- i think everyone deserves a voice (delivered with consideration/respect, that is!)

Though, Hurt- it is just a hard time for consideration to be given to any OW-- even one you dont know in real life--- its just such a sensitive time for you/us. I COMPLETELY understand and have felt a lot of anger towards particular OW who have been around the boards. I do, however, feel that Mary has always made it a point to be fair and pretty nice to everyone-- here and "there".
i didnt come to "stick up for" OW posting here per say, just to say that since she hangs out here a lot and really has never caused problems and has always tried to be kind- it probably bothered her more than an OW who "deserves" the backlash for what she has given out in the past.. KWIM?

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurt5-04:
<strong> Why do you think that OW's that post on BW's questions and opinions feel they need to stand right up on their soapbox and ramble about trying to see this and trying to see that? They post their opinions about what WE should be doing and feeling. They post comments that are not really wanted. Why do you feel they need to do that. OWs NO NEED TO RESPOND TO THIS but I know of one that will....I really feel that OWs and BWs don't mix, like oil and water. Ows can call me immature and this and that, but I guess in my opinion, your opinions about me or any other BWs don't matter. Ows are the ones that did things wrong, NOT the BWS who chose to stand with their H's and try to piece their marriage back together. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">seems this thread has taken a turn but to respond to the og post:

I THINK that the OW who post here, for the most part are FOW & I THINK the reason they get on thier 'soapboxes' is to try & make/help us BW see that they are no longer this STOW that we might think they are or that WE are dealing w/.

I THINK that they want to justify so much that they are NOT a STOW. I THINK that they feel bad for their past behavior, embarrassed about it & so try to give all this proof about how they are NOW that in no way resembles (maybe) who they were when they were still an OW.

OR proof that who they are NOW, in no way resembles a STOW. kwim?

But by trying to diassemble the 'myth' there is an oversight...if you are NOT an OW any more, than ANY comments made about an OW would not apply to you anyway but you still react to it. So is it really US who are labeling YOU or is it YOURSELF who is labeling you?

Of course this analysis does not apply to any current STOW's that post around here but I have't seen many lately.

Personally, I don't think it is necessary just as I do not go to TOW to try & help/make 'them' see that I am NOT a STBW.

We cannot MAKE anyone think/see anything. They either realize themselves over time or they won't & there is nothing you can do about it. Even though I THINK this----I still catch myself EVERY time IRL---trying to get others to see things MY way!!!! LOL

And I have also realized that SOME things will have to be left as...agree to disagree...topics.

That's MY pov.
kt

cryinsomuch: I did NOT see your post until after I posted mine......but apparently WE are SO on the same wavelength!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KT, I disagree with you. IF you read as it's written it's stated once a ow always an ow. That all ow have what they have coming to them and a disgrace to society. Lynn is a perfect example of that. I was just told my Hurt yesterday that I made my bed in soceity. So I have to disagree with you on that. I don't come here to convience anybody anything. I came here to learn and talk. Just as bw come over to learn and talk. And also to help a hand when I can. that's it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am wondering why there are so many ow on a message that this wife did not want them on? She clearly wants insight from BW as to why WE think ow are on here.

As for my feelings on ow's. I want to warn each and every newbie to not get caught up in the maniulative ow drama. That they do not have to do or concern themselves with what an ow thinks they should do. Especially THEIR ow.

I am making sure they know that the OW is not part of their marriage, and therefore her wishes/needs don't matter. What's wrong with that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LYNN I thank you for this and of course support you and encourage you to continue.

Hurt I am so sorry your post went off the subject and you didnt get the responses from the people you directed your question to.

Cryin' nicely said.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Cordelia ]</small>

KT - you make a good point. I know that I'm not a STOW, and I do know that they're out there - I've read far too many horror stories here and elsewhere. I'll shut up now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thank you Gio. Your right about over there too. I don't post there hardly at all anymore. I do feel you can get insight from bw's. So that is how I feel about that.

TOW does not like "reformed OW" or BS's and they make no bones about it. They even changed the "starting over" forum's guidelines to say there will be no MM/MW type posts that discuss marriage building tips. This change came after one of the sites members complained because it upset them to see someone working on their M after an affair. It made them uncomfortable to think their exMM might be marriage building too.

The sight seems to not like married OM/OW posting very much at all either. My feeling is they remind them of their MW/MM and the fact they won't leave their marriage for them.

I don't have an OC in my life, but I am drawn to this forum because I recently had a baby. I lurk/post sometimes in the other forums too. SI.com is a bit to BS heavy, you really have to kiss their feet over there to post. So, many find this site to be the place to go.

That's JMHO on this subject... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, it *sucks* when you're like me and you just don't fit in ANYWHERE!

I dont really fit in anywhere myself... but I do like another smaller one that was started. Seems pretty cool, but still small. I dont really fit in here anyomre-- surely cant post at TOW-- and the general board here has awesome things to offer, but I feel swallowed up when I go there-- sooo many people!

Regarding the TOW board-- I feel sometimes (truly and not a flame to anyone).. that the TOW board is truly, in every way, the work of the devil. Its like evil breeding grounds. Its a collective representation of the evil in people and the ugly that I never would believe existed in such large numbers. Many are lost souls over there-- many of them-- and they need to fraternize with other hissing human beings-- the devil is their leader!!! I swear it!!!!

A good representation of heaven, now... you KNOW its the MB ANGELS ovah here, right?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> hee heee

**** disclaimer *****

NOT EVERYONE at the TOW board is the devil, the spawn of the devil, or does the work of the devil. Please wear the hot shoe if it fits, only.

hello everyone,
I dont post to much, but here's my opinion.
I cant stand my OW, she knew H was married, I used to take her daughter to my cabin with my daughter, and boom, h is sleeping with her, I always wondered why she used to call him at the race track to come over to the fence to talk to her and her children, thought it was just because he was a race car driver, and her little boy wanted to see h.
I dont have any respect for OW, Im sorry. just sick of the "Baby mama drama".
we didnt ask them to get involvled in our lives, they made the choice to get invloved with our H. knowing full well he's always going to put the ow last on the priority list. and they made the decision to choose us as their new illegitamate childs step parent. we didnt want to.
Yes it takes two, but come on they knew he was married, I feel my ow, had child to try to keep h in the A. She begged him to come back to her once he stopped the A. and she had a abortion two months before she conceived this oc, but once she conceived h child, now all of a sudden she wants a baby. ha ha didnt work honey.
Let's face it these ow, are looked to by others as fools and nasty women, and the oc, are ususally scorned, talked about, or not even considered at all except by the ow that had them, usually these children of affairs only have their moms, no fathers because they dont want anything to do with ow, now they feel resent towards both ow, and oc, and all famly involved feel the same way. it's sad for oc, because they have parents that werent responsible enough to make sure that the whole pregancy didnt happen in the first place.
This child and the affair, just distroys everybody involved. including h, bs, ow and oc, all involved is hurt, mostly the bs, and the oc. because the bs lose's her H forever, and oc, never gets a real daddy.
Please dont respond with mean posts to me, this is just my feelings, and this is the place that we are allowed to vent the feelings the whole baby mama drama has caused us.
as you can tell Im still having a hard time with the whole thing.
and I really feel sorry for all the oc out there, that dont have daddy's because he's was married and wants to keep his famly, these daddys only look at oc as a big mistake, how sad. H and ow should be so darn ashamed of what they did, the life that child is going to have to live, and the lives they distroyed, including their legitamate children from their marriage.
sorry if I offened anybody.