I haven't posted to the board in a few months. Probably because I stopped snooping and looking for clues of truth in my H. I decided to try and trust him. However, I went to pay his cell phone bill and he had went over his allotted minutes causing an additional $100 in fees. So I went to look at who he was talking to so much. I know the OW numbers and wanted to make sure she was on the other side of the cell bill. Well, I didn't find her house number, but I saw her cell number popping a few times. He had told me that he hadn't talked to her in a while...so I'm like why is he lying. The phone conversations were held over a period a week and a half at 3am....which around the time he is at work. The conversations lasted for approx 30 minutes. I have asked that he not have conversations with her unless it's stictly about the welfare of the OC. Well, he said that actually he was talking to the baby sitter of the OC and that she had taken over the cell phone from the OW. First, why would he be taking with the Baby Sitter at 3am and what motive would she have to talk to the father of a child she is babysitting that she doesn't know.

I noticed antoher number that he had been talking to up to 3 hrs at a time over a period of week and a half. When I confronted him with this information and he said he didn't recognize the number but didn't go find out. Well, I did a couple of call & hang ups and I think I recognized the OW's voice this morning.

So, now I am at the point of realizing that my H is still lying to me. Are the conversations strictly about the OC or something more? In my heart, I want to believe it is just about the OC...but 3 hrs? I prayed to God yesterday and asked that his Will be done and to show me in a clear message what that is. Is this the clear message? Do I wait until I talk to him to interptet anything?

How long to you allow your H's to talk with OW about OC? Should I not try to time it?

I am just to confused. Do I give on my M? Do I just seek conuseling on Trust? We only had session with a counselor when he reveiled his infidelity. I know we stopped too soon because there are other unresolved issues between us, but I began to trust him again....so why is he lying?? Is he scared to share with me his desire to see OC? I don't automatically believe that he is sneaking out on me again....I believe it is about the OC but I don't accept him lying or not disclosing to me whats going on. Am I stupid?

I'm certainly no expert on this, we're not even reconciled and WH's OC isn't even here yet... but boy would I be suspicious if I were you. If I would have trusted my intuition about fishy stuff that didn't add up, I would have saved myself some time & pain, and definitely would have busted my non-recovered WH and OW long before he got her pregnant ("working late, business trip - "but I'm going alone", etc.) I was so trusting and in denial, other people were saying "check up on him" and I thought, no no no, not necessary; he wouldn't cheat again... I'm worried that YOU aren't the one who need counseling sessions on trust!

And also, MB'ers, isn't the idea for reconciled couples to present a joined, united front to the OW, w/ regards to all matters about OC? What's with him contacting OW and/or the babysitter about OC w/o W's involvement or knowledge or support? Seems really wrong to me.

I too would be somewhat suspicious. However I have had the very same situation. I do beileive Husband was talking about oc, they'd talk about hopes and stuff for his future. But I confronted him and he's stopped the excess. I still dont feel completely confortable. I've read some of what others have posted and I kind of would like all contact about oc to go through me. That way I'll know everything is on the up and up or at least thats how I feel. I'm not sure if I'll bring it up though. Keep you head up but please be cautious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, he said that actually he was talking to the baby sitter of the OC and that she had taken over the cell phone from the OW. First, why would he be taking with the Baby Sitter at 3am and what motive would she have to talk to the father of a child she is babysitting that she doesn't know.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(((TR))) I am so sorry.

I just want you to take yourself out of your body and pretend you are reading your post and it was written by another wife.

You have the sign. You know he is lying. These are the EXACT cell phone/cell bill games the WS plays. I used to tell my H to "tell that story to our preteen kids" and see if they'd even believe that utter nonsense you are spilling.

Number one-- easy rule to follow. NO FORMERws talkes to the OW behind your back, especially for this many times, etc. THEN, lies about it, hides it, plays tricks with OW's new numbers, etc.

Let alone, NO man talks to the babysitter of an OC who he has NC with, let alone EVEN if he has C with--- at 3:00 a.m.

No FORMERws talks to Ow about OC or a ANYONE in referece to OW/OC for THREE HOURS, unless he is in court.

PERIOD, TR.

I cannot candycoat my response by so much as saying this is even fishy. He is in C with OW. He is not even being careful- this is sloppy lying.

You began to give more trust- stopped snooping. H took advantage of that.

If a man who is doing anything he can to restore trust, love nad you M in general---- there is NO WAY he would do all of this behind your back, ever. And if this huge bag of lies he's told was remotely true, he'd absolutely do anything to prove it. What would YOU do if you were so falsely accused and "framed" ? Pick up the phone--- and call the babysiter instantly and you would know. He didn't even do his phony "follow up" on the cell phone charges that are "so mysterious" to him. He figures you'll forget about it and just be complacent again-- or something like that.

My H was INSTANTLY in the call-right-now if you dont believe me mode -- when the A was over. No problems, no games, no questions, no ridiculous cell phone stories (which the Bs could write a book about the cell phone tales told by a WS).

TR- I think it is time for you to take further action. I believe you have the proof but I know how hard it is to FORCE yourself to go over the edge of safety and of recovery and EXPOSE AND TAKE ACTION AGAIN. I've been there. Its terrifying because now there has to be something more than last time. Now you have to take further action- and it is frightening.

Call the numbers------ do whatever you have to do.

Do not ever allow yourself to take a step further in these hurtful and often humiliating situations and become "that" woman who is allowing this to happen for fear of feeling the fresh pain- for fear of losing H, for fear of rocking the boat, for fear of dealing. At that point we do become doormats- we do start to live in acceptance out of fear.

I will be thinking of you in this hard time. I hate what I just wrote but I feel in my own gut what you know you do to. Please keep us posted and stick around for others here to help you deal with what I beleive is an ongoing A (even if just emotional A).

ps-- can you recap what the situation is regarding C/NC?
No one talks to an xow NOT in the presence of

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

I'm a firm believer that all cell phones should be dropped from the top of the tallest building in the city most convenient for you to get to!!! However, in reality, if WS's are going to have C with OW, they're going to do it regardless of what we think we can do to prevent and avoid it.

TR, I would have to look this up to remember correctly, but I think maybe I posted to you a long while ago about a text message or something that you saw between H and OW? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Ahhh.. I get so confused with these (much different) (but sadly much the same) sagas that we live through.

How are you TR, are you around today?

((heres another hug))))

TR, my memory served me correctly.
I did what others have done to me/for me and am going to cut and paste a piece from a thread you started in September of last year.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it wrong to snoop in my H's belongings to ensure he is on the up & up? I don't totally distrust him but I am leary that he is not adhering to my requests...i.e. NC with OW unless it is specifically about OC. He gets very upset with me when I look at his phone records and his email. He has actually threaten that he cannot be in a situation where he feels like he is being watched. I told him what do he prefer....being without me & our child or being watched...so far he has choosed the latter. Since finding out about his A 4 mos ago, I have only looked through his things 4x. Each time I find something suspect that he easily explains away. Today I saw a text message from the OW where she says (and I quote)

"What do you care for. You act like I no longer exist. So you don't need to come up there. Let a girl have a little fun since you are unavailable to play with"

I did not see what he originally wrote that prompted this response (he is getting better a deleting messages, but her response was new so he has not had time to read and delete). What, if anything, do I interpret from this message. It does not really say alot...i.e. he's cheating. But it lends and air of flirting that I believe is totallly inappropriate. She is nonexistent in my opinion which I want him to communicate as such to her. I started to reply directly and say just that but I don't want to make this situation hostile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My reply to you was a mirror of the reply I posted yesterday.

Now I am really sure of both of my reponses. Your H is irritated with you as far as 6 months ago (right after dday even) about you seeing his phone/text messages. This is number one giveaway.

Your H is still involved with OW even now. He is still acting the same way regarding his calls, he's lying and he is also still getting caught. He has just invented new ways to keep the contact going and by your laying off of him he has become sloppy.

TR------- I feel terrible that yet another one of our group here is going through this still. It hurts me for you.

Something has got to give, and it is going to have to be you exposing him in any way that you can with SOLID proof. I dont know what you are going to have to do, but something has to be done to stop the contact and obvious continued A.

We will be praying for you, your M and family. It is not an easy road but the second time around---- its time for tough action from you if you want to live your life in peace again with or without H.

TR, I'm not sure if you've read my story, but it's remarkably similar to yours. I had reason also to check H's cell phone bills. What I found was up to 8 calls in a day on some days. I called H and asked when the last time he talked OW was? He said a week or two. I could see that it was a lie because I had 8 calls a day for several days that week. I gave him several chances to come clean and he didn't. He lied and lied until I told him I had his cell phone records in my hands. He was still defensive and did not admit to anything. I told him I was ready for a divorce and he basically told me to make sure that was the decision I wanted to make (he wasn't going to be the one to leave me). A day or two later H decided to come clean w/ OW and tell her that I was pregnant. She called me and revealed their affair had reignited after OC was born. It had gone on much longer than I had ever suspected. Please do the research. I know it hurts, but it hurts more when you find out your husband has been having an affair for 7 years. His affair has been longer than our marriage. I am saying a prayer for you and your situation.

I appreciate everyones input. Unfortunately, I don't want to face up to this. I have been through such tremedous agony over the weekend and it affected my behavior with my son because I couldn't let go of the "mysterious" phone number. So I did resign to letting the suspicion go for the sake of my mental well being (I know that sounds stupid). But, I am not at the place of actually calling the number and asking for the OW to verify if he has been in contact. So without making that move, all I have is suspicion.
Have any of you directly called the OW? I really don't want to have a conversation with her and I am afraid if I call, ask for her and hang up that she will recognize my voice and I will be exposed. No one really knows about the A & OC, so I can't have someone call for me.

Any suggestions??

G123 - I can't believe your memory is this good. I just don't want to believe that he would still be involved (however small) with the OW after all we've been through. I have felt that I have handled this well so far, I can't believe that he would break me....and continued involvement just might do that. My H is a warm and compassionate person, I don't want to think he is malicious. I believe that GOD is with me and will only give me what I can bear....I don't think I can bear more of the lies and distrust.

My H thinks I can't handle C with the OC and therefore does not share all his feelings towards OC & in this case the contact he has established. However, after discovering this information, I have decided to go back to Counseling. Which is better, couseling with a minister or counselor?

This just sucks!

Oh TR821, I'm so sorry this is so hard... but listen to the advice you are getting here from those who have been through it and seen it time & time again. It's all so textbook. Think of Dr. Phil "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing." It's true. Giovanna123 is giving you excellent advice, straight up.
When I found out my H relapsed I was in complete and utter shock. I had trusted him, again, completely. I KNEW he knew what he did to me with the earlier A, and I was SO SURE he would never do that to me again. Have you read "Surviving and Affair"? It outlines relapse, and recovery. He should be sharing honestly & openly with you. If I can be direct, you are prolonging your own pain by letting him off the hook. I'm so sorry.

TR, I think an EXCELLENT choice of couseling IS a christian counselor.

The experience I've had with a christian counselor is that they are often a much warmer person, pro-marriage, and more genuinely concerned for the marriage and family.

I personally longed for a truly kind hearted person to work with us- and we found her! She did not push christian teachings/bible based, etc. because that isn't really what you are there for at that point, but she cared for us as people and that was obvious. The counselor we used was thru a non-denonimational church/crisis center and she actually would CALL US to push for us to continue-- she offered if we came--- to even waive our co-payment of 20.00 because she cared for our family and wanted us to stay together!!!!

I know a gal like that may be hard to find-- but
I believe there are LOTS of christian counselors out there for you too-- look all over - churches, charity organizations, etc. They are out there for you!

Not to mention, most all pastors do counseling. And I've actually heard of people who cannot afford counseling who offer the church a service in exchange (i.e. work a saturday in the food bank.. or donate childrens cloths, etc.. )

I did call the OW. The first couple of times she was not honest w/ me. She covered for H. Eventually when she found out about my pregnancy she called me and told me everything. You have to be prepared to hear a lot of things you probably don't want to hear if you call. The times I called I was so angry w/ H, I didn't care if he knew I called her or not. It did help me to see the reality of the situation, you can't deny the truth when it's right in front of your face.

Wife,TR..

I also contacted the OTHER WOMEN (plural because after A and OC and one year of h*ll and false recovery--- we fell apart again to the point where we'd go seperate ways all weekend. I found out there were TWO other girls he sparked up something with -- MET THEM AT A CLUB- gag me-- both of them, THE freaking wh*re.

I digress..

Anyway
I called and annoyed the girls who were behind the cell phone numbers -- first it was "no idea who you are talking about.. I dont know him... wrong number.... leave me alone.... dont call back..... " they covered first and were probably shocked when I said he's married....

Well, both broke - in the same manner and finally took my "side". Once I got their attention I was nice and calm and played on them as "women".

My point is, like Wife said- they will most likely cover or deny but with persistence- they WILL break. If you make them mad by saying stuff like "he said he hasn't talked to you for months.. Or tell them "he said you were a one night stand" (that p*sses them off to wanting to out the MM)

TR- calling the OW is not a desirable choice. H telling the truth would be the answer-- but he is not. I know there are lots of ways you can find out who he is calling-- unfortunately, I took the direct approach so I am not too savy on that stuff. Contacting the OW will have your stomach in knots, your hands shaking and your voice wanting to studder. Believe me, it’s a sick thing to face. And then she will most likely lie and/or try to hurt you.

You have to decide if living a lie is what you want to continue to do. I am not trying to push you or twist the knife more, but please honey you are, as Wife said, just prolonging your pain and dealing with this. For every day and night you turn the other cheek- is another night your H and OW are in contact and are carrying on to whatever extent they are. Turning your cheek means you are allowing H and OW to get closer and closer. Hard to hear, but true.

Is OW married?

Is contact established, I don’t remember? Does H have any C with oc?

I want to start a new thread about cell phone traps for WSes------ I've read lots of them and as his wife, there are ways you can obtain his passcode. I watched my friend do this to her boyfriend. She told cell company that her H was in jail and that he did nothave his passcode to get his messages (which had his attorney's cell number and the secretary will NOT give it out because he is a criminal attorney and everyone would be calling him day and night).. she acted hysterical and said she needs to know this number ASAP - and they GAVE IT TO HER!!!!

There are ways-- believe me.

I am so sorry for all of this. I wish I could personally come to you and hug you right now- you need it. I spent hours alone in my room in silence because NO ONE knew and I didnt have this site-- YOU DO and that is the good news. You are NOT ALONE honey!

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

Okay...I gathered the courage and called the number back this morning on the way to work. It is OW's number. I really didn't talk to her just said who I was and that I was verifying if H had talked with her becasue he said he hadn't in over a month. You did not offer anything up (actually sounded a bit suprised I called). Anyway, I talked to H and he adminantly swears he has not talked w/ OW. He says that the number must be where the baby sitter is calling from. He just called the number two days ago, so I asked him why he didn't say anthing knowing I was wondering. He still says he doesn't recognize the number...he gets lots of calls...blah, blah. Then our conversation turned into why am I checking up on him and calling numbers and that now I am harassing OW. Then, he says he doesn't think we are going to make it (he is litteraly crying...and I am hurting because I feel like I did something wrong). Eventually, he says he needs time to clear his head. I immediately called the counselor to schedule a session (not until Monday). But H, really thinks I am the one that needs the counseling. He further goes on to say that C with OC will be even more difficult because OW will know he is talking to babysitter.

I have so many questions and so few answers. I don't know if he is lying or if I am just gullable. I can't stomach that is lying to my face because then I won't know this man at all.

He currently has no C with OC. This is what he is trying to establish (but supposedly through the baby sitter).

Please pray for me....I am going out of my mind!

It doesn't seem like a smart thing for H to establish contact through the babysitter. At the very least the babysitter is setting herself up for liability issues. It's hard to tell at this point. His story does sound fishy. If I were you I'd be afraid to let my guard down. Although H does not think anything he did was normal he also makes comments about him not needing counseling. When he's angry w/ me he makes comments about me needing counseling. While I admit I need counseling to deal w/ everything H has done, I think H is pretty messed up to have been able to do all the things he's done and I feel he should look into himself to find out why/how he could do all of these things. He is not open to counseling, so I'm taking care of myself and hoping he deals w/ his problems on his own. You can't help someone that does not want to help themselves.

It seems like your H is trying to turn this around on you. Please don't let him do this. He's trying to cover for himself and make it seem like you are the one at fault. Under the circumstances you had/have every right to be suspicious.

((((TR))))

I am so very proud of you taking that HORRIBLE step that you did!! Sounds dumb, sure-- but YES YOU DID SOMETHING you NEEDED to do. With or without the result you are looking for--- you STILL took a step in an effort to not "simply turn the other cheek" ! Doing what you just did, was very hard so do not underestimate how important it was.

I've seen the tears. I've seen the one I love hold me and cry with me while I was in a heep on the floor-- and he made promises to change, etc... and then- the cold hearted Wayward Spouse cannot see how unbelievably cruel their continued hurts are to us. The word "fog" is just a simple term to describe the complicated and sick world of the WS...... your H is in it.

He did not talk to the babysitter for 3 hours, PERIOD. I believe, wholeheartedly, that the OW is lying. 3:00 a.m.-- babysitter.. NO NO NO he is lying and dont you DARE feel sorry for "snooping" into YOUR OWN LIFE !!!!!!!

Okay, now take a deep breath and pray some more. Pray that the breaking point for your WS and OW is near and as God to help your heart to endure what needs to be done! He will, TR.

You are doing the right thing by YOU, to go get counseling. Yes your H needs it waaay more-- however---- you have feel better about you and gain the strength you need to continue to be a
SOLDIER FOR YOU AND YOURS. Show your H that YOU ARE GOING TO GET THRU with or without him!

HE MUST SEE that you are going to be ok without him-- that you love YOU and expect MORE AND WILL NOT SETTLE FOR THIS FOR YOU AND YOUR SON!!

I know you are weak and worn now and it is time for a change. God is going to bless your life sweetie, believe it. But just as it goes for you husband-- you cannot help those who do not want to help themselves.

Wife, isn't it amazing how very similar the actions are of the WS.

I dont think everyone here understands how valuable and it is to have a place like this.

When my H was doing these things -- yes I had intuition telling me how to handle the situation to an extent-- HOWEVER I had NO IDEA that all of these WS act the same.

I thought my H was the meanest person, ever to live. If I had ANY idea that they are all the same in their cruel actions, at least I would have an understanding of this horrid reality.

As a FWH I hate to say it, but his behavior does sound familiar to me. When cornered, deflect the pain and divert attention away from the facts and onto the BS. His story doesn't add up one bit.

Unfortunately in his foggy state there's not much you can do except not stand for it. It may make him open his eyes and get him off the fence, and if not you will be starting the necessary process of rebuilding yourself.

Good luck TR, you have rough days ahead but lots of support here -- use it liberally! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TR821- I know it's hard to comprehend, but I think your H is still fence sitting. He's up to something, period. I know my H and he doesn't out and out lie, he just gives an IMPRESSION of the truth by being vague and walking around the subject. What you are doing is normal and should be expected by your H. It's not fun for anyone, but having your eyes open and checking a little now and then helps you know he's telling the truth, or not. Don't let him put this back on you. The way he's talking sounds like the way my H talked when he was having A. We were separated, but were supposed to be working on things. Whenever we tried he put things back on me, like everything was my fault. Not the frame of mind of someone who is WILLING to make M a priority. If I were you I'd do a plan B and seek IC. As long as he still has secrets from you you won't be able to start rebuilding trust. Knowing your strong enough not to put up with his crap may make him take a second look (that's what it took for my H), if not, your better off. Sorry to be so blunt JMHO! Good luck sweetie!

Well, since calling the OW and confronting H with this info and our resulting argument...he has not wanted to discuss it. It has been the preverbial "50-ton Elephant in the room". Anyway, I asked him last night if he was going to IC with me on Monday. He was cold and unmoving saying that he already said he wasn't going and wasn't going to discuss it any further. I was a little suprised by his coldness because I wasn't confrontational. I just asked why not. He left the room without commenting any further.

I asked him why he was so angry and he said that he had already told me on Thursday and I said that I wasn't sure everything was settled in that conversation. He reinterated that I am the one with problem...calling other people number...etc. I told him he brought me to this with his A, which he responded "why am I with him". I told him I was willing to go through the bad if we could rebuild. He said well either I deal with it or not....he is not dealing with my insecurities and not going to counseling. I told him this is what he has and if won't deal then he can leave. He said he can't he doesn't have anywhere to go and not enough finances to get a place by himself.

How am I supposed to take this? He is only staying because he can't financially afford to do anything else!!! I thought the initial anger would have subsided but it was still there from Thursday. I left the room and went into the bedroom. The saddest part was my son kept trying to pull me back to where my H was and was crying (he is only 19 mos....but I swear he sensed something was wrong). I couldn't believe my H wouldn't try everything in his power to save our M...especially for our son. Our son loves us both and is the happiest when he is around us both....this is soo incredibly sad.

Well, I am still going to IC tomorrow without him but now I may focus the session on moving on with my life without him in it. I was thinking of telling H that he has 6 mos. to get his finances together and then leave the house. I am so scared of taking this step...but I don't think I am strong enough to put this entire M on my shoulders. How can he not put up with my insecurites when he's the one that created them. And why is he sooo angry because I called OW...I was not disrespectful, confrontational...nothing! We were on the phone all of 60 seconds. This makes me even more suspect of him. The overall story doesn't make sense or his lingering anger...normally, that means he is hiding something.

I just don't know what more to do. I asked God today in church to direct me and lead me down the path he has choosen for me. Now, I just have to wait on His Word.