My H moved out Jan. 6, for at least the 7th time. He'd been home since right after Thanksgiving, but the last couple weeks with him in the house were very strained and I thought he would be leaving again. It was a relief when he went, I was seriously considering asking him to leave...Plan B or Plan just get the heck out.<P>Okay, by the weekend of the 15th he wanted to come home. Total change of heart, wants to be my husband and spend the rest of his life with me and our daughters. Great, huh? Well, I heard this same thing in Jan of 99, Aug & Nov...and I don't want to do this anymore.<P>I still love him, but I have no trust for him, and not just about his fidelity, I don't trust him to be good to me, I don't trust him to respect me, I don't trust him not to bug out if things get tough.<P>I've been committed to this man & my marriage through 2 very tough years of neglect, betrayal, abandonment, & lies. He now talks about the future...and I don't believe he'll really be there for me.<P>Sooo, I haven't let him move home. I have let him spend as much time here as he wants, except no spending the night (well, just the night before my 40th birthday & last night when the St. Louis Rams won the Superbowl ) But no sex. We're getting along great, and if we weren't married with this past, it would be a fun relationship. He's just been a really lousy husband and my feelings for him have flatlined.<P>Do I give him the opportunity to win me back? Or just finally say, this has been enough of my life wasted? I have no regrets for Plan Aing all this time. But I don't see myself continuing.<P>We are going to Christian counseling. He says time and patience can heal my wounded feelings, but I don't have to put myself back in the position to be hurt again.<P>Any thoughts welcome.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)

Lor,<BR>How much do you believe this feeling of no marriage and how much of it is the protection or barrier of you not getting hurt again? That would be my main question. Maybe you could set down some limits or guidelines to "this time around" like counselling has to be every week or every time the counsellor requests it. Or that this is the last time you will ever take him back, I don't know all the answers but I think your at this board for a purpose, you are a marriage "builder" not breaker. I think you truly want this to work and for it to work you need to open that door again. Some people would be glad for another opportunity to try and work thing out again and some would say that it couldn't. You have to find what is good for YOU! God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

Lor,<P>You have been at this longer than any one of us. Sometimes I am amazed you go on. I am not sure what to say. When does someone know when enough is enough? What do your Children want? What do you want?<P>I am in the position that you are in. Tony has never left but I really question his motives. Two and half years of lies, affairs, mean and nasty treatment of me. He has changed but not that much. I am now on paxil just to survive the day. I wonder how I have gotten through the day without it.<P>Maybe write down a list of what you need from him. Also write down a list of how you have grown durring this time despite all his negative efforts. Then write down a list of what you like about him? Has he been giving you what you need? Also really sit down and think how many chances does a person get? Talk to your daughters and get their ideas.<P>I really am at the same place. I hope you do not think that I am barging in on your post. I think that I do not love Tony any more. This weekend I was discussing my two to four year plan and he just kept inturpting me and changing the topic. I was so livid. I just told him point blank you really could care less about me. He said that was not true and so I just said so why do you not care about anything that is important to me. I then told him that I can not let him hurt me any more that I am not willing to give him my heart just for him to place it in the trash again.<P>Really examine where you want to be and how you want your life. Can your H fit into that. This would also be valid for your children. He did not just cheat and waffle with you but with your children as well. He really needs to fix it if he wants back in. Now do you have it in you to risk it again? I am starting to think that I just do not have it any me to give Tony any more chances.

Thanks for your input Chicks & Paka.<P>The kids: the 14 year old barely tolerates her dad and would prefer that he not be around. He is trying to repair that relationship & has just volunteered to coach an academic team she is on--Destination Imagination. 14 is a tough age without family problems. The 11 year old just misses her Daddy and wants him to move home.<P>CHICKS, Counseling--an absolute must whether we make the marriage go or not. Right now we have gone together 2 times, plan to go weekly. His anti-depressants are also non-negociable. And I'm on them as well.<P>I know very well how glad many on this board would be for another chance...how many have give over 7 chances and been walked out on?<P>PAKA--your feelings mirror mine. How much and how long do we give without our needs being met?

Lor,<P>I admire all you have done, and continue to do and go through. You have been an insperation to me when I didn't think I could go through it again. I finally had to make the decission that I couldn't and didn't want to go through it anymore. My decisssion may have been a little easier since I don't have children, but I couldn't put myself through it all again. <P>I'm not saying for you to give up.... please don't think that. I just wanted to let you know that thoughts of what you have gone through and are going through gave me strenght when I needed it. <P><B>Only YOU can decide how much more you can take.</B> Just know that we will be here for you no matter what your decission is.<P>Thoughts & Prayers always,<BR>Butterfly<P><P>------------------<BR>There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. <BR>-- John Oliver Holmes<P>The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.<BR>-- Elie Wiesel<P><BR>

Lor,<P>Is it going to be 7 times?...<BR>or 7 times 70 times?...<P>I don't know... maybe you'll never know either.<P>If anything... I'd suggest that if you're not seeing progress with the current counselor... maybe seeing a different one may help.<P>Are you getting any "working exercises" to practice good marriage building techniques? and skills?... <P>Anything to build better communication skills?...<P>Practice in applying <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>?...<P>Practice in working through <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>?...<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Protection:</B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness?...<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Care:</B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>?...<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Time:</B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention?...<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Honesty:</B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse?...<BR></OL><P>These <B>skills</B> need to be developed...<BR>...whether they are called by the "Harley" names... or by "divorce buster" names... or whatever!<P>The names of what <B>must</B> be done can be different... the <B>skills</B> are really the same!!!<P>If your counseling isn't giving you ideas, exercises, reading, "homework" (ok... maybe not homework per se),... or something with which to <B>practically</B> practice these skills... it most likely isn't going to happen.<P>Like when my son brings home his trumpet...<BR>... he can go to take the lessons...<BR>... he can read sheet music day after day...<BR>But... if he doesn't practice... it isn't going to get any better!<P>Just a thought...<P>My prayers... <P>Jim

as long as you are being completely honest with him, why not let him attempt to win you back? it might be fun for you, and the challenge will be good for him. then, don't let him move back in until you are won.<BR> the hard part is knowing when that is. but it doesn't sound like you are being too easy to me. you sound wise in your hesitation.<BR> i wanted my h to move back in because i couldn't stand the grief of my children. i didn't know the whole story, and 6 mos later when i found out....it has been extremely difficult. but he has been in the position of trying to win me back. even though i am committed to staying married, he knows it is only for the kids and that i am not in love with him. so he is "courting" me. and it is nice. it is not working yet. i am still in too much pain. but regular life (outside my heart) is very pleasant and God is s-l-o-w-l-y healing me and us. i am expecting "closure" with oc (he's had no contact for a year - as far as i know) on march 20...and then we shall see. <P>so the way i see it, what have you got to lose, if you don't let him move in, but let him know that you are open to be "won"---sit back and wait. let the ball be in his court. now, the spiteful side of me says to also let him know that you will be open to other bidders!!!! ha ha yes, i know, i am wicked.

OK...what would you have to do not to put yourself in position of not being hurt again. What does that exactly mean to you? If it is something you can define...and after you define it...it looks healthy and reasonable, then you just might have a plan.<P>I have a 14 year old, too. (My kids know nothing of the affair) She has a good relationship with her dad and always has, although her recreational interests do not match his as well as 10 year old. Anyway, at this touchy age, it is important to have respect for her father and her mother. I am not knocking your reconciliation attempts (your H is the boo boo head) but just letting him come home again and starting the cycle over does not seem to be in her best interest. <P>Maybe she needs extended congruent effort from him as much as you do at this point.<P>If you are giving him access, but no over nights, this probably satisfies the 11 year old's need for her dad as much as possible given the situation.<P>There may be a fine line between being somewhat detatched emotionally to letting your heart grow cold. But if anyone has done a great job of walking fine lines, it is you <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi Lor:<P>I've been gone and missed most of the last round of your saga. I've made two international business trips in January and now I have pneumonia. I guess it serves me right.<P>I think the answer is relatively clear now. The burden is on him. He either takes the ball and the responsibility to INITIATE working on the marriage and being responsible about it within a fixed amount of time (whatever you think, probably a couple of months). If he doesn't, he's still not serious and you file for divorce.<P>The challenge you're facing is this constant in-between, waffling behavior, so it's not really clear whether he's trying or not. So, I think what you need to see is sustained commitment (counseling, consistent anti-depressants, no contact w/ OW, sincere effort to be responsible and meet your emotional needs, etc.). Before letting him move back, I think I'd require multiple months of it, perhaps as many as six. He cannot come back and let you and the girls down again. It's not fair to anyone. So the next time he comes back, it's got to be nearly a guaranteed permanent reunion. The only way I know to make that happen is for him to completely prove himself first, with literally months of demonstrated commitment.<P>I continue to be amazed at this story, really from all sides. There's something really wrong with your husband, but we all know that we can't help people who won't help themselves. At the current pace, this could go on for many years. It's tragic that he's sick, but you are also entitled to have a life that includes happiness and a partner. He's been dragging you down with him, but you can only let that happen for so long. At some point, it's enough. You're lucky because you get to determine that point. He'll never take the action to divorce you.<P>Your determination through this is nothing short of amazing. You have much to be proud of, regardless of the outcome.

Lori, how about this approach - not a new idea, I think that it is basically what a couple of others have offered:<P>You don't really know him anymore, is what I think has happened. The man you fell in love with and who you pledged your life and love to has changed so much and hurt you so much that you don't have any idea who he is anymore at all. The man you fell in love with is probably in there, under the mud and crap of his shame and guilt and depression - but you can't see him in there because that mud has painted him unrecognizable.<P>You've worked so hard at this - trusting over and over. You DO deserve respite from that, we all can see that. But, as someone pointed out, you ARE a marriage builder... you have invested so much into this - is it worth it to stop now? I don't think so - but the game has to change. You've been "It" for too long - it's his turn to be "It"!<P>Tell him this:<BR>~~~~<BR>You've so badly damaged my feelings for you that my heart is tired and sick. I need time to heal, time to recuperate, without having to work at this like I've been doing. Remember when we first met? You need to woo me like you did back then - and you need to woo your kids back, too, because the damage has been done to them, too. If you want me in your life, you really have to prove it this time - you need to meet my emotional needs without much expectation of my being able to meet yours. You need to learn my love language, and speak it to me everyday, all day long. And you need to commit to doing that for the rest of our lives together. And when my heart has had the opportunity to rest and heal, you can teach me your needs, and teach me your love language... and we will learn about each other all over again, like new lovers... But YOU need to do the work, first - I can't do it anymore...<BR>~~~~<BR>That's what I think. Of course, I'm a die-hard romantic when it comes to everyone else... read my signature ... <P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lori}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

Lor,<BR>Hi there friend !<P>It's good to hear from you ! (and good to hear that the hubs wanting to get that relationship back !)<P>I've been reading the "7 Habits of a Successful Family" and a couple of things jump out at me. The dad in this book openly admits to having a "sometimes" quick temper, however, he's also a proponent of CHANGE and SELF AWARENESS.<P>Would your husband agree to staying separate from the family and working on the various issues that ALL OF YOU AGREE ARE THE CONDITIONS FOR BEING A FAMILY AGAIN ??<P>What would make the kids feel safe ? What habits would they (and you) like to see on a daily basis that would begin to make them feel like you are GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION??? (and so on...)<P>I haven't gotten very far but.....the same rules that we have in MB can be somewhat applied in a family.<P>Time, care, protection, honesty, no hurtful comments.......etc.<P>Again, I haven't gotten very far...but it's only 7 Habits that are close to our Plan A practices.<P>The author, watched his parents slowly become emotionally separated and then finally go through a painful divorce. His resolve at the time....was to do everything in his power to have a successful family. I think he has hit on several key areas that make sense. (and NO, I'm not doing the family practices...our kids are way too small)<P>Simple thoughts, Tina <P>

Lor,<P>You wrote "PAKA--your feelings mirror mine. How much and how long do we give without our needs being met?" That is a valid question. <P>This is one I have been thinking about. I have really been doing a great deal of thinking. I really believe that Tony does not love me. And I am starting to think that I do not love him any more. I have reached my limits. Yes we are still together and we are suppose to be working on it... This past week he threatened to leave me yet again and I just sat on the corner of the bed and said why not just leave. I informed him I would assist him to pack the bags and all his furnature and he could leave. I was very calm and for a second I really saw the reality of this all just being over. He did not move out. <P>For me I want peace when I get home. At work I am the center of so many projects and working on so many different things at once. Then on top of that I am working on my degree. I can have days that are over 12 hours long. When I get home I do not want to hear his grips and complaints because he did not get his way.<P>Personnaly for me, right now I am just taking it one day at a time. When he bugs me I tell him point blank. I have also started to make him deal with all his issues. I am assisting in looking for the right degree but that is about it. I have balanced his checkbook because I wanted to pay some bills. But over all I have stepped way back in assisting in problems he has. <P>I think me letting go and making him do the work has really helped him grow up. But why should I be punished, pay for his mistakes or even worse be his mother? I really do not think I should. Everytime he screws up I pay for it. Our therapist said that our relationship would always be problamatic because he can not deal with real life. I need a break from all this I can not always be going 150% in all I do.<P>I started just really starting to asses my life and where I want to be. It has made me really think about my self worth. I have run the department I work in by myself after only working here seven months. I get all the really big projects. Plus the President of the comany has come to me to see how things work on this other project (that I do not even work on). Now I have a couple of avenues opening up for me. I have done all this during the most intense emotional pain from someone who professes to love me. I look at the last two and half years and see nothing but emotional abuse. My two to four year plan does not necissarly include Tony. I can make it on my own and I am regaining my strenght.<P>So maybe take your time to really decide what you want. And do not let him move back in unless you are really sure this is what you want. How much more can a person take? I am not Tony's whipping post to take things out on. I have really bad days and get tired but I never bring it home and take it out on Tony. So why should I put up with the garbage from him. I deserve to be treated in a special way because I am a special person. So are you. BTW sorry this is so long. It is nice to chat with someone that is in the same boat. I have not really been talking to anyone about what I am thinking or feeling.

BUTTERFLY--I don't feel like much of an inspiration. Thank you for your kind words and support. Even if your marriage doesn't appear as if it will make it, and mine is in limbo, I think we're both MB successes.<P>NSR--everytime I go to the Lord with "How long" I get 70 X 7, and I understand it doesn't accumlate day to day... My counselor is good. I've gone religiously and he has helped me a great deal, my H goes twice, skips 6 weeks, that sort of thing so he is always starting over from the beginning. I also haven't always taken the counselor's advice. He thought I should go to "tough love"/plan B last summer. I tried, but with the kids' activities, it fell apart for me.<P>NEEN--I think I am sitting back at the moment. He has told me that if he has to work on our marriage alone for 2 years, as I have, he'll do it. We'll see. And unfortunately, there is "another bidder". I'm being cautious, not seeing him, not emailing him...but when he calls or walks into my store, I do talk to him. My H has come into the store and seen the guy twice. H doesn't like it much, and I've asked the guy not to come in any more...right now.<P>FHL--More than anything I want to break up this crazy cycle my H & I are in. what I told my H I am willing to do right now:<BR>I will not seek a divorce.<BR>I will go to counseling with him.<BR>I will let him spend unlimited time with me and the kids.<BR>I will not pursue another relationship (see my response above to neen).<BR>I don't want him to move home.<BR>No sex (this might become negociable).<P>DISTRESSED--I'd love to have that guaranteed reconciliation. He has guaranteed it...at least 3 other times...that's what is behind my making him wait. At the moment my re-evaluation time for when he might come home is next Monday. He's living in temporary military housing, he won't be willing to stay there a lot longer, so some sort of decision will have to be made.<P>TERRI--I already emailed you. I've told my H in front of the counselor how hurt I am. The counselor used this example to explain it to my H. "If I sat next to you and repeatedly hit the same spot on your leg, it wouldn't take long for it to become sore. If I kept hitting the same spot the pain would begin to feel unbearable. Soon all I would have to do is touch the spot and it would hurt, I could even pretend I was going to touch the spot and you'd probably wince. If I said I wasn't going to do that anymore, but I wanted to sit next to you, it would take a long time until you would trust me and stop flinching everytime I moved." I thought that was a pretty good example of how I feel.<P>TINA--hi. My H seems to be saying that he is willing to do what needs to be done to re-build our marriage. But 4 weeks ago, when he walked out the last time, he said that there was no way he could ever give me what I needed. (I was asking for honesty and fidelity--ouch!)<P>PAHA (not Paka, I don't know what's wrong with my dyslexia today) Feel free to make your posts as long as you want. I know there are lots of times I really don't want a thread of my own, but I feel like I have something I want to share/say. Your words of emotional abuse ring true for me as well. My H has been very cruel with words & deeds. If he hurt me physically as he has done emotionally, I would have been long gone. Verbal/emotional cruelty is much harder to measure...and probably easier to forgive?<BR> <P>

Gosh Lor,<P>If he can't give ya honesty and fidelity, than what is he giving you ?? "wants to come home and be with you and the kids"??? <P>Kinda curious now, about what he describes as a successful marriage? <P>-Tina

Lor - I've opened this thread four times and haven't come up with anything to say to you. <P>You've gotten some good things to think about so far. From me, you're in my thoughts and prayers.<P>Lori

You know what... I think it's time for you to sit back, put your feet up, and relax. Let him show you something for a change. You've done all you can and now it's his turn and if he really means business he will be able to fill up your love bank. He made the withdrawals, now let's see if he can make some deposits. I say do what you need to do for you, but don't close your mind to the fact that there is still hope. Let things be, keep doing what you need to do for you and if its meant to be it will be. Stay strong and be encouraged. We support you here! And we love you too!<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Lor,<P>It's good to hear from you. I am not on much anymore; I gave up on my marriage; but this isn't about me.<P>You have gotten some great advise here. Follow it; follow your heart; follow God.<P>Lor, the things you have been through.....I don't know how you do it. But, I do think it is time for you to sit back and let your H do the work. See if he is serious. <P>You have done all you can, been as patient as Job, it's time for him to put up or shut up. He needs to show you and the girls that he is ready to roll up his sleeves and get to work.<P>I wouldn't let him move back in just yet. I think it's a great idea to let him join you and the girls as offen as he likes, but to make him go home at night.<P>God is with you, Lor. He is helping you along, every inch of the way. He won't lead you wrong.<P>Praying for you and your family.<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

I think your H may need to do this on his own as much as you need him do. <P>When you have reached out and tried to fix, it failed. Maybe he truly has to do it himself for it to really stick.<P>At this point sitting back, letting go, whatever you call it may actually be helping your H more than any help you ever tried to give him.<P>Go figure...<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Isn't it interesting that when we start to 'cool off', our spouses suddenly begin making attempts to repair the marriage?<P>My husband tried to commit suicide last Tuesday. He was brought to a crisis unit by the police and paramedics. He was then transported to a psych ward for three days. There he was diagnosed with Bipolar I disorder compounded with acute alcoholism. They started him on Depakote. He is now in treatment for the next three weeks.<P>Bipolar disorder is an incredible malady. People with this disorder do the following:<P>1. Reckless behavior without regard to consequences<BR>2. Blaming others/getting angry at others for situations they have created<BR>3. Substance abuse<BR>4. Poor judgment in business decisions, spending money, sexual issues<BR>5. Depression then manic highs<BR>6. When on a manic high, inflated self assessments<P>There are variations to this disorder that can be treated successfully. Does your H have any of the above symptoms? Mine has them all.<P>You are in my prayers.<P>

Hi, Lor,<P>Count me as another who has repeatedly opened this thread, but didn't know what to add... I think FHL has made some really interesting & valid points, esp. the one about having your H carry the load now being good for him as well as you. I have no doubt that his self-esteem is in the toilet, and that's a hard thing to get over; the feeling is that you are worthless to the marriage. I felt that way for years after my affair, and ya know, having the opportunity to be "the strong one" when Dunc and our marriage needed me to, was wonderfully healing.<P>My feeling upon reading this thread is that at this point, the onus really *is* on him to put his money where his mouth is - you've done all you can humanly do, and have every right & reason to want him to prove his mettle to you now, before throwing in your lot with his again. <P>As others have suggested, I don't think it's time to slam the door and throw away the key just yet... don't discourage your H's efforts, but make it clear that you've run out of steam as far as trying to be the "fixer" goes & the ball is in his court now. Terri had some good ideas.<P>It *is* kind of perverse, that getting something handed to you on a silver platter (like a spouse & a marriage) makes it easy to take it for granted. Let 'im work for you! (p.s. - I don't think it hurts for H to know that there is "another bidder" hehehehe... but I think you're wise to put a hold on that. This is complex enough as it is!)<P>Good luck, Lor... you really deserve some peace & happiness. I hope your H is up to the task. He needs to find his strength & sense of self-worth again. For both of you, I hope he can.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>