H and I went to court yesterday and the judge granted our divorce. This just proves my point that when it really comes down to it, these betrayers don't have the emotionally maturity or common sense to look their spouse in the eye, admit what they have done wrong and try to change it. My H is ambivilant toward the OW (whom he is living with)and completely unhappy with himself. It obviously is not the "pie in the sky" mentality that is seems at first. So, those of you who are sitting around, begging, pleading, waiting for your wayward spouse to reject the OP and come back to you.....don't bother. Those kind of people are only going to drag you down anyway. Do yourself a favor...stop being the victim and stand up for your rights. You can't MAKE a person want to be married. It is only a desperate last attempt to hold on to something that obviously was flawed from the beginning.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

I'm afraid that I don't agree with the comment about the marriage being never meant to be...at least for me. Am I just trying to hold on? Yes.<P>Our two beautiful children are what keeps me hopeful. Don't get me wrong...I'm just saying for me that the marriage was not a mistake until 13 years later when I couldn't believe this was happening to me.<P>I hope you will continue to be happy in yourself, that's what we all need.<P>You're right tho in saying that H is completely unhappy w/ himself. My H also would live with OW but then come to me and say that things weren't all that rosy. I don't jnow if it was because of her or because he missed our kids so much.<P>Best wishes.<BR>

Like I have said in other posts. I have finally realized that I can still love my stbx but I can also love myself. And even though I love him dearly....I will make it without him. I too, will be standing in court with him, probably in less than a month and I am scared to death. I am so afraid that when they make you say that stuff at the end...that the marriage is irrevocably (sp?) broken that I am going to break down and not be able to say it. I hope I make it<BR>Nancy

Wow! I am going to be going through this divorce stuff here too. I am so sad right now. I have another post on the board, it is over or something like that. I called legal aid today because I can't even afford a lawyer. My husband won't even take the responsibility to file himself. I don't know what to do or think. Thankfully, my sister's husband is a lawyer so I can call him and ask him for legal advice. I wish he could help me with the divorce but they live in another state. My husband left last night and I think that he thinks that since he is gone he has no responsibility to us. Well, I heard that he has to support us as long as we are still married. So, I think I am going to try with all my might to keep the house for as long as I can. I don't want to give up everything I have. He wants us to move out so he can have the house. WEll, I am tired of making things easy for him. He sure as heck hasn't made it easy for us!<P>Good luck to all of you!<P>~Woozy

I truely feel for you. I was in a long term relationship that started off as an affair then we stayed together through some pretty wild stuff (I now only need to sleep with a family member to make it onto Jerry Springer). I gave my SO a ring this summer and she "upgraded" this promise ring to a proposal. We had already been going through the rebuilding of our relationship after I had an EMR. We were working at things then OM entered the picture. There is alot more to this, but suffice to say she is with him now and not with me. You should count yourself as lucky to be out of a relationship wich is obviously not allowing for truth and trust to be rebuilt.<BR>I understand that it doesn't make it easier though. Don't know about you, but I've actually been putting together a 'play list' of songs for how I've been feeling. I'm trying to assemble a bigger list to include how I've felt dring the relationship, and have begun to start looking for the songs I want to incorporate into my life as I leave this part behind and get on with rebuilding my self worth and trust in others.<P>Umm, I just reread this and realized that most of what I've written was for my benifit of venting as much as anything. Hope you can find some comfort or a hidden pearl within my rantings...<P>------------------<BR>"Remember that every now and then you need to stop and eat the roses."<BR>-Bill The Cat

Camarinick,<P>Iam sorry, I don't agree. As i just sais in another post, marriages and realtionships require work. True love, one and only love, the one that is meant to be is not realistic.<BR> <BR>If it were, do you think that the one you were meant to be with, of all the people in the world, happens to live within 50 miles of you? Hopw could people marry after a death? Why is the divorice rate for arranged marriages so low? Hmmmmmmm. <BR>

Rachel,<BR> I'm so sorry for you.It's getting to be"take a number"for divoces on this board.You are right about not being able to make someone want to stay married to you.I don't agree about the marriage being"flawed from the beginning",though.My W and I were best friends for two years before we married.Things were pretty good for a long time.But over the years,things change,people change,goals change.Maybe in some ways,we did grow apart.We fell out of love,but settled down into a comfortable relationship.Thats when our marriage started to fall apart.Don't think that all of your marriage was wrong,and was never meant to be.Try to remember the good times,and forget the bad.That's all you can do.Now is the time to go to work on yourself.They say it takes about two years to get over a divorce,so give yourself time to heal.Try not to let your anger over what happened tear you up.It'll serve no purpose.Let it go,and try to find some peace.Take care.<BR> --Murph

I am sorry Cam.. I feel for you.. But, I have to disagree with you.. There are some marriages that can be saved. Maybe not all, but I am living proof that your spouse can get through a very serious affair.. My h lived with ow,, we faced divorce,, but it never happend.. He has been home for 6 months and I have to say a marriage can survive this.. We talk more, we now go to church together,, we have went through our emotional needs.. All things we never did before the affair.. <P>there was a time that I never thought this possible.. With hard work and faith,, we have made it and are continuing to grow.. There were a lot of bumps along the way,, but well worth sacrificing some of my pride to get where we are at..<P>A lot of the success stories dont stay around here, because it gets hard to continue to be reminded of what happend, by reading others stories... It breaks my heart to see anyone else going through what I did... I do read sometimes, but I rarely post... I do want to help others though..

Rachel,<BR>I'm sorry that you are hurting so much right now... eventually you will be able to think about the good times without all the pain.<BR> <A HREF="http://hicards.com" TARGET=_blank>http://hicards.com</A> <BR>pickup number 012801192812811<P>Hugs & Kisses,<BR>TCF

Sorry to hear about the final divorce, Rachel. I know you have tried & cried and struggled and hoped and prayed for a different result. I've lurked on your thread both here and at DB so I'm familiar with your story. <P>I totally agree with your words of advice. People who are struggling with infidelity should move on and start their own recovery right away. Think where you'd be now if you had just walked away from your H and your marriage from the beginning. Think how closer you'd be to enjoying your own personal happiness instead of waiting for someone else to give it (back) to you. <P>I'm not trying to be mean, somehow the above paragraph sounds wrong. What I'm trying to say is you went thru hell to learn a valuable lesson. You would have never learned it any other way. You can come back and tell people your story but they are not going to listen. Don't take it personally.<P>As wise as your advice is, as much as you & I believe it, no one will "get it" from listening to you or me. They have to go thru their own hell to learn it just like you did - just like we all do. <P>There's a lot to learn in life, but it hurts and it makes us cry. But without lessons, where would we be? Earth is a soul-school and you just passed your relationship test with flying colors. <P>Look within yourself for happiness and love. That's where it is. People cannot be controlled or forced or begged or loved into doing anything. They've got their own path to follow and that's just the way it is. If something is meant to be, it will be. <P>I wish the best of everything to you and your 3 beautiful children. I just know you'll be ok in the end. Believe in Fate and Destiny, k? <P>Peace<P>

Rachel, I'm sorry that the divorce went through. <P>Now, even though I'm semi-retired, I feel the need to step in here, because I see the all-too common thread of righteous "it's all the betrayers fault" that is completely against the MarriageBuilder's method, and very poor advice for saving a marriage. <P>Should you beg or plead for your wayward spouse to end an affair? No. Because it's not effective.<P>Should you wait for the wayward spouse to end an affiar? Yes---if you still love them. But, you need to be doing work for yourself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>People who are struggling with infidelity should move on and start their own recovery right away. Think where you'd be now if you had just walked away from your H and your marriage from the beginning. Think how closer you'd be to enjoying your own personal happiness instead of waiting for someone else to give it (back) to you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>People who are struggling with infidelity should start their own recovery right away---in a way that gives the marriage the best chance to survive. Not move on immediately without doing the real relationship "skill work" to survive.<P>If you immediately leave your marriage in bitterness, blame the spouse and OP, and if you don't take any of the responsibility for your failing marriage or rectify YOUR behaviors that helped to cause it, then you're very likely to repeatedly fail in future relationships. And there are lots of people who do exactly that, again and again.<P>Instead, I would encourage those who are dealing with infidelity to start learning HOW to be a good spouse. Practice as much as they can (and can bear) with their spouse---even if they are unfaithful. And not rush into a divorce until they are the ones who want to be done with it.<P>There's nothing desperate in that plan. It's the quickest way to finding healing and closure, and it also allows a marriage to thrive.

Well first I want to say that I'm so sorry to hear about your divorce and I hope that you will heal soon. You are in my prayers....<P>You said....<BR><B>"So, those of you who are sitting around, begging, pleading, waiting for your wayward spouse to reject the OP and come back to you.....don't bother. Those kind of people are only going to drag you down anyway."</B><P>Like K said in the above post, begging and pleading is out of the question. It's belittling to yourself and doesn't earn you any respect from your spouse. However, waiting is a CHOICE. Personally I think waiting and bettering ourselves while we wait, is the answer. And if it works out, then great. If it doesn't work out, I can walk away with no regrets. I would never have to toture myself with the thought of... what if I would have waited, what if I would have did this, or not done that. But I could walk away knowing that I did everything I could. <P>As far as the "those type of people" generalization, it is unfair. I know you are hurting and I (as a betrayer) do NOT take offense. But for the newbies that are here who does have hope(and rightfully so) for their spouses who are wayward, it is unfair for you to tell them not to bother or in essence, give up.<P>Carmarinick, you gave it the best you could. Granted you are not perfect, but you gave it all you had. Its obvious that you are hurting and my prayers go out to you. I hope that you will find healing in time. But as you hurt, please find comfort in knowing that you have friends here. And also the Best comfort lies in the arms of God. Stay encouraged. <P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com<p>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited January 28, 2000).]

Rachael, I know this is one of the most painful days of your life, probably next to discovery.<P>I know you are not happy with the results of your marriage. <P>But you stuck by your guns, made sure you weren't a "doormat". You let your feelings be known, that right is right and wrong is wrong. You are the right one here.<P>You chose being right over being married.<P>Your goal wasn't to restore the marriage, but to be right. <P>Sometimes being right has it's own consequences.<P>Who knows though? Maybe with the rightness you feel now, maybe with the divorce finalized, maybe now you will feel he has his just punishment, and you might now decide to create a safe environment for your husband? And maybe now, that you demonstrated to him that he isn't going to have an affair and get away with it, maybe now you will feel free to be a friend to your husband and maybe by the time his affair is over - he will want you again?<P>I say, just because you are divorced, there is still an opportunity to work on your relationship and hopefully restore your marriage. Many divorced couples remarry.<P>tnt

Cam, I sense your frustration, and I'm sorry about your divorce, but I think it is your frustrationg speaking here:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This just proves my point that when it really comes down to it, these<BR> betrayers don't have the emotionally maturity or common sense to<BR> look their spouse in the eye, admit what they have done wrong and<BR> try to change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My husband did exactly that. And he has changed. I have changed too. And like K said, the changes we make in ourselves will benefit us and we can learn from our mistakes.<P>My h had one long, intense relationship before he met me. She ended it without giving him the chance to understand, to tie up loose ends. She would not speak to him about any of it. That would leave someone lost, as he was. I see a lot of people hurting on this board, but they ARE figuring out what went wrong, trying to rebuild, coming out of it with a better understanding of themselves and their spouses. They are not sitting around begging.<P>

camarinick,<P>Sorry to hear that the divorce went through. In a recent post of yours I thought there was hope that it might not.<P>While the divorce went through, you know "It" is not over. Your Ex is still confused and involved in a relationship that has little chance of success. You and he will also be forever linked because of your three beautiful children. For their sake, do your best to have a good relationship with your ex. As others have said, you may still have a chance to remarry him. I've seen it happen before in cases like yours. <P>One word of advice though if the question ever comes up, is to remind him that you only have sex with your husband and since he is no longer your husband, he'll have to look elsewhere.<P>Good luck in the days ahead. Be sure and take care of yourself and do some nice things for yourself. Enjoy your time with your kids.

I am not opposed to Plan A, Plan B, etc.... but here is the thing. Knowingly allowing your spouse to spend time with the OP (which hundreds of people on this board have admitted to doing), hoping that this "Plan A" attack will lead them back is ridiculous. It basically says, "Hey you can have the OP, and I won't make you account for that.. in fact, I will sit home and watch tv by myself, while my spouse has sex with someone else. Oh, and by the way, I will still be here for you to try and work on our marriage." People, it doesn't work like that. Do you honestly think that they can begin to refocus on their marriage when they still have the OP. Nope, it is paramount to an alcoholic. It is called enabling and any psychologist you talk to will tell you it is a time-bomb. Give them their options and a limited time frame to decide and then go from there. If they don't want to give up OP, then there you have it. No amount of Plan Aing is going to change their minds. Let them go their way. Don't be responsible for continuing the infidelity and passively encouraging the affair. Put a stop to it while you still have the power by making them choose. It is not about being right.. it is about standing up for what God says is right. Infidelity is a sin and soem of you are unknowingly conspiring to keep that going.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Rachael,<P>Go read lostva's post about poptarts....<P>TNT

And once again I say Plan A and B both have limits. We, ourselves set them. Neither you or no one else can tell me or anyone when to quit. You stuck it out as long as you could and we are doing the same. I realize your divorce is over and I am sincerely sorry, like I said before. But I don't think your negativity and or bitterness is helping anyone. Your situation may be similar to others but it is unique in itself. There have been positive post by many here lately. That's the kind of encouragemnet we need. God said in his word that a man/woman can depart on the grounds of adultery, yes. But he did not say we SHOULD. That is a decision an indivifual must make. God is a forgiving God. He loves all. And because people are staying with their spouses, it does not mean that they aren't standing up for God. In a matter of fact, I believe God is the one who has given them the strength to do so. This is not about what's right or wrong. It's about the two involved in the marriage. You make the decisions for your life and we all make ours. And it's unfair for you to call what we are doing ridiculous. If you just sat around on the couch watching TV while your H was out. It doesn't mean that the rest of us are doing that. Plan A is not only about the other spouse, but it's about improving ourselves too. And we never have power over our spouses. We can't make them do anything. You can decide whether you stay or leave and so could they! I usually don't respond in this manner and I hope you do not take any offense. <P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

I want to tell everyone that there is hope... You never know what is around the corner for you.. I just cant believe the way my situation has turned from the most horrifying experience in my life to building a wonderful relationship with my h.. He has changed a lot from this and I actually am happier now than I was before his affair..!!<BR> So there is hope... A lot of hope.. Believe me when I say it.. I was on the verge of divorce.. split up the furniture, got a lawyer, agreed to a financial settlement.. My h signed a lease on an apartment with ow... it was over..<BR>I did use plan A and B both... I will tell you though.. My plan A did not include a free pass for my h to sleep around with ow.. Anytime I found out he saw her after h moved back home,,we had some major words... And it went like that for a bit, and I was actually planning on leaving him if I had found out about any contact with her.. and he knew it.. But I had to swallow my pride a little and as long as I was beginning to see progress in my h, I didnt give up hope.. I knew he was suffering from withdrawal and had occasional conversations with her.. I told him it was unacceptable.. Pretty soon, I saw my h gradually coming around....and eventually he broke through.. it was really hard on me... But if they are trying and reading and doing a lot to beat it, I would hang in there.. But watch there actions not their words.... I would not have been able to approve of my h sleeping with her and sleeping with me and saying honey, its ok, I will be there,, that really isnt what plan A is about,, In plan A, they need to be following the guidelines and expectations you have for them..If you say its ok,, they will never feel as though they have any conseqences and they will drag it on for a lot longer..... Its hard to be strong, but in the end, that is what helped save my marriage.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by mickey65 (edited January 31, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by mickey65 (edited January 31, 2000).]

You have every right in the world to be hurt and angry. It’s real easy to feel that because these principles did not save your marriage, how they could all be wrong. But, the book is “Surviving An Affair,” not “Save Your Marriage. Guaranteed!” These principples will help you to get through all of the effects of the betrayal and the divorce.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Give them their options and a limited time frame to decide and then go from there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn’t that what we are all doing? They have their options. Work on the marriage or get divorced. We haven’t told them the timeline. Most of us don’t really know when it is.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Infidelity is a sin and soem of you are unknowingly conspiring to keep that going.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If this is the case then putting money in the bank is helping a bank robber to sin.<BR>I know what she is doing. How are we unknowingly conspiring? By unconditionally loving our spouses? Our spouses know what they are doing is wrong and they know it is hurting us, but at this point most of them don’t care, or perhaps feel too hurt to do anything about it. <BR>When we all chose to get married, we didn’t want to tell our spouses what they did or didn’t have to do. They are grown ups (well, at least they were at one time ; and they can make their own decisions.<P>At some time in your relationship, didn’t you feel that you could respectfully speak with your h, tell him your feelings about something and he would act on that because he wanted to do it for you? That’s all we are trying to do here. “But it isn’t the same thing. Sure it’s not, but the principles of it are the same.“ We don’t want to demand our spouses to do anything. Why should it be different because it hurts more? Maybe you feel you need some “justice in this.” How is anything you could do or say really going to affect the situation. You might get a load off your chest but what will your h think of you then?<P>Just some thoughts.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited January 31, 2000).]