Hi Friends,<P>No, I haven't fallen off the MB world... I'm still replying (though posting less frequently)<BR>You who send me e-mails asking about me... are so kind... and caring about my situation(personal and wrt my marriage.)<P>Brief update... (as brief can get)<P>My dad (64 years old, 1 heart attack already) went in yesterday(2/1) for a catheterization and they found 99%+ blockage on the right side of his heart... they rushed him over to another hospital and then performed an angioplasty. They weren't so capable, I guess, since he passed out twice during the opeartion... from the pain... as they passed the chord through his genitalia and caused some damage... yuck! He (and his heart) were doing OK last night... but it is doubtful he'll be back home today. <BR>If you could say a short prayer, I would appreciate it.<P>On a slightly brighter side... about my W and I as our divorce moves along...<BR>My Early Settlement Panel(ESP) review(state mandated... but not forced...mediation) is now postponed 3 more weeks... to February 29th (the day after my W's 39th birthday). The east coast snow storm was a blessing in disguise. I just wish they could postpone it for 3 years instead of 3 weeks. <BR>The trial date will be set 4-12 weeks after we fail to agree at the ESP (it's inevitable).<P>Otherwise...<BR>I too, a big proponent of Plan A, fell off the Plan A wagon... yeah... I'm more than human too! A lesson to all of us that think we are veterans of MB ideas...<BR>Last Friday when my W picked up the kids(every other weekend visitation)... she came in... we were cordial at first... We even got together extra clothes for the kids for the cold weather... but after that... she goes to the stereo and starts taking a bunch of our jointly owned music CDs without asking...<BR>...and of course she pushed the right buttons(not on the stereo though) and got me to say to her... "Please don't...", then "Please leave..." and then escalated to "get the h@!! out"(once... but, once too much.) W got angrier... as I cooled down quickly... but...<BR>...boy was I an <B>idiot</B> for doing that...<BR>...why I allowed myself LB is beyond me...<BR>...I apologized <B>several</B> times before she left...<BR>...I let her take whatever she picked up of the CDs(should have done that at the outset)... but...<BR>...at least I didn't wait to apologize until she left!<BR>...I don't think the apologies helped that much...<BR>...I knew I did wrong... <BR>I just need to be a little stronger in my Plan A... going forward.<BR>Yep... time to get back on that Plan A wagon... dust off the LBs... and get better!<P>Of course, she reciprocated big-time on Sunday...<BR>She took our kids to a new church. It was a different denomination... still christian... but we are Catholic and while I dearly love, respect and honor fully my fellow christian brothers and sisters in christian unity(I have many non-catholic christian friends)... my children still have alot to learn about their own faith... BTW: she taught CCD(Catholic education) for about 6+ years up until D-day and even got me to start teaching CCD about 5 years ago.<P>Well, I blew my top... thank goodness she wasn't there when I found out! My faith is really what has kept me going through all of this (besides the MB forum.) My W had always said that she would continue going to the same church as the kids were raised in (from day 1). Now that her "new family" (OM and his 2 kids... and she really clings to these new kids(16yo & 18yo)...) goes somewhere else... I think she wants to switch... and do it with my kids too! I contacted my attorney... and I was relieved to find out... she can't do this! But now there is one more bone of contention between us. <P>I won't be contacting Steve again until the ESP is over and we have a trial date...(Steve's suggestion)... and to just keep on plugging away at Plan A. I've just got to watch my LBs.<P>I'm still looking for a new job (company is going through a big downsizing... and phasing out it's in-house staff of trainers)... I'll be OK... I teach technical computer courses (Windows NT Administration/Architecture, MS Visual Basic, Java,...) so on a temporary basis I may just consult for a while... or I might go back into application development (if I can work from home a good part of the time.) Time will tell...<P>If anyone gets a chance... check out my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000013.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A> post. Ideas to add to it are more than welcome. The same thing for my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000025.html" TARGET=_blank>Books</A> post.<P>In advance, I'd like to thank everyone who shows such compassion here... <BR>I wish all of you could be my next door neighbors... <P>Your friend...<BR>...who prays for everyone here... <P>Jim

Jim,<P>Prayer for your Da's recovery...<P>Try not to sweat the LB too much. You said we are only human.<P>It's hard as heck for me sometimes, sucking up the anger that is.<P>I look fotward to the relief of plan-b. 12 days and counting.<P>As far as the denomination of the church..<BR>That's tough. I'm southern Baptist, if my W decided to change denominations initialy I'd go through the roof. Thinking about it though, it is twice a month, they just visit their mothers new church. If you can keep this from happening w/out widening the gap between yourself and W then do so. If not maybe allow it to be educational to your children as to the wide variety of Christian denominations...Just a thought..I know God will reveal what you should to to you. Let Him guide you.<P>Hang in there know your still loved and cared about.<P>Bill<P>PS: Do what I do...put covers over those buttons when W is around..lol<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Jim, <P>Even though you are not posting as much, we are all behind you 100 %!!! Let us know if you need anything!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan<P><BR>

Jim,<P>My thoughts and prayers are with your Dad.<P>As for love busting, yes, we are all human.<BR>I often wonder when and if my "human" side<BR>will emerge (almost 3 mo. with absolutely no<BR>love busting). <P>You said that it was inevitable that the two<BR>of you would fail to agree in the ESP. I've<BR>followed many of your personal posts, and do<BR>understand that the situation is difficult -<BR>yet, I would encourage you to never say <BR>never. There's always hope.<P>Perhaps the ESP moderator will ask your wife<BR>what she would need to reconcile the marriage. She could say "there's absolutely nothing" or you could be surprised - maybe she'll try throwing out several totally ridculas demands believing that you can not<BR>meet them. That would be an opportunity - other than a sex change or murdering someone, there's little I wouldn't do to save my marriage (I'm sure you are the same).<P>You may be right, but still you never know, and a lot depends on YOU in those ESP sessions. A lot also depends on what happens over the next three weeks. You're right, that's a blessing, use it. And, although I wouldn't over do Valentines given the divorce proceedings, I'd still suggest you do something - perhaps just a card with the right words (but not pleading, begging, promising, etc.).<P>And remember, divorce is by no means the end.<BR>It really isn't, really. It too could be very easily an opportunity for a beginning. In reality, these days MANY COUPLES are getting divorced and then remarry. The angry member usually calms down after the divorce thinking they are now "free" and no need to be angry. They unconsciously let their barriers down thinking nothing could happen. You keep Plan A going, work hard on the conversation part and going on with your life, and she just might start to come after you and fall in love again.<P>It happens Jim, it really does.<P>Anyway, as you can tell, I'm still routing for you. There's a carved stone on my desk that says "never, never, quit".<P>One last thing, remember, the only people who get hurt on rollercoasters are the people who jump off - she's jumping off, not you.<P>SamH

Jim,<P>Don't forget...many of our S's push our buttons to FORCE us to LB. Everytime we do...they feel justified in what they are doing.<P>I don't think the argument over the CD's was as big a deal as you think. If it wasn't hat, she would have made sur eit was something else. You are not superman, so cut yourself some slack here and quit beating yourslef up over everything.<P>Where you need to hold firm is in the religious affiliation of your children. Pick the fights that matter the most to you...and I know your faith is of primary importance.<P>Remember, even happily married couples sometimes have spats and NEVER always see eye to eye on EVERYTHING! <P>You are still being a WONDERFUL H to her. Keep listening to Steve....<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

My prayers for you go continuously. Your dad will be added to my prayers and I'm thanking God for the postponement of your ESP!<BR>Don't worry about the LB and don't be so hard on youreslf. You are so far from being an idiot. Keep doing what you're doing, Jim. I think you are doing great!<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Jim:<BR> I'm SO upset to discover you aren't perfect . You & yours are in my prayers...<BR>Kathi

Jim - thinking of you all the time. Hey, we ALL do our share of lovebusters!! You recovered nicely, I think.<P>Good luck with everything now. You have SOOO much going on! As always, you are in my prayers.<P>Lori

Jim,<BR>I agree with Bill on the church thing. Also you are trying to control her and the more you try the harder it gets. My x was trying to do the same thing but my kids don't want to go because all their friends go to our church. They wouldn't even go to another church with me. I was looking at going to a larger church that would have more single people/women.<P>Our church has about 350 active members and about 5 are eligible. So I was looking for greener pastures if you know what I mean !<P>These are some of the areas I turned over to the Lord and they did work out for the most part.<P>Take care and I will pray for you and your family including your father.<P>Bob

<P>((((((((((((((( JIM ))))))))))))))))

Jim,<P>About your LBing...we all fall off the Plan A wagon. You've got to be Superhuman not to. You just get back on and ride it again.<P>I'll be praying for your Father's recovery and I'll be praying for you too.

<B>Everyone</B>...<BR>You are so kind as to not knock on my head about my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busting</A> episode... <P>Thank you also for your prayers for my dad.<P><B>Bill</B>...<BR>I understand your idea about "educating about demoninations"... and that might be OK for early teens... but I have a 7yo and 10yo who know alot... but they have so much more to learn...<P>BTW... I know someone else suggested this to you before... can't you push the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> thing back a few days... away from Valentines Day... it will be a bad memory for Robin... I know my Easter Sundays are pretty much ruined... that was the day my W asked for a separation... 3 days before D-day.<P>Thanks for you prayers... they mean a lot coming from you... <P><B>sue</B>...<BR>Thank you... what a good friend... <P><B>SamH</B>...<BR>Oh Sam... if only you knew how she's acted toward me when I tried to be nice...<BR>Three mangled yellow rose... on different occasions throughout my town might give you a hint...<BR>No, I don't reconciliation will cross her mind... unless it is proceeded with a big <B>NO</B>... then some explitives... then <B>WAY</B>!<BR>On Valentine's Day... maybe a one line message...to her. That's all I can send so she doesn't send back another nasty reply.<P>I'm not quitting...<BR>and I'm jumping off either... <P><B>Desiree</B>...<BR>I'll try not to pick fights...<BR>I'll just pick "areas of opportunity"... LOL <BR>Yes... my faith... and all the time I've spent raising my kids in it are important.<BR>Thank you for your prayers too. <P><B>jamie-lee</B>...<BR>I hunger for all of your prayers... <BR>God is good... <P><B>Kathi</B>...<BR>Alas... perfect is to be strived for... and never attained... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>I appreciate your prayers too... it takes all just a step closer to <B>that</B> perfection... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P><B>Lori</B>...<BR>Wow... your wisdom was incredible today in your post to quandry... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>Now I know why... when I first came to the forum... you were among the first to respond to my posts with such thoughfulness... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>Bless you!<P><B>Bob</B>...<BR>I understand Bill's idea... but even my children were a bit more than disatisfied in the service they attended... and yes it is only twice a month... but that adds up to 50% of the time. It's like she wants to... as she told them a while back... "It's the 90's... things change"... and so she will change my children. I'm sorry.... and don't mean to offend anyone... my values and what I bring my kids up to believe <B>doesn't change</B>... whether it's the 90's or a new millenium. Please don't take offense at this... and I do respect all faiths... christian or non-christian. If my kids don't want to go... I'd like my W to honor that as well... with no pressure. [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>I thank you for your prayers... they do mean a lot... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>I do wish you success in finding a different church... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] mine too is samll (about 500 people total!)<P><B>soulloss</B>...<BR>You knew it... hugs mean a lot! [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P><B>NoTrust</B>...<BR>I'll keep-a-tryin'... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<BR>Thanks for your prayers for my dad... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P><BR>--------------------------------------------<P>Thank you one and all... [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<P>Jim

Jim,<P>I understand about the young ones and church, that being the case I'd have to say they need to stay within your denomination. That is the time when we learn about the traditions and customs.<P>As far as delivering the letter Feb.15...Why not she's destroyed Christmas for at least a few years, NYE was our 8th anniversary..she spent it with OB..She will psend V-Day w/OB since I'll have D that day..It only seems fitting..I don't do this as revenge...well..maybe a little...however I honestly can't take much more...Steve told me my plan-a has been too good...My emotions desperatly need a reprieve..<P>How's you Dad doing tonight? I was thinking about that today..<P>Bill<P>:"Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and your plans will succeed." Proverbs 16:3<BR><P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Jim,<P>Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. I hope your dad is OK, mine WHO turned 67 in December had two strokes within 72 hours a few years ago, he used to live alone & took him 26 hours to reach the front door so neighbors could see him. He lives 3,000 miles from here & I learned about this only when he was in recovery. Your father is in my prayers along with you.<P>"For <B>He</B> will command <B>His</B> angels concerning you<BR>to guard you in all your ways; they will lift<BR>you up in their hands, so that you will not strike<BR>your foot against a stone."<BR>Ps. 91:11,12<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I too, a big proponent of Plan A, fell off the Plan A wagon... yeah... I'm more than human too! A lesson to all of us that think we are veterans of MB ideas...... we were cordial at first......and of course she pushed the right buttons... "Please don't...", then "Please leave..." and then escalated to "get the h@!! out"...boy was I an <B>idiot</B> for doing that......why I allowed myself LB is beyond me......I apologized <B>several</B> times.........I knew I did wrong... I just need to be a little stronger in my Plan A... going forward.... time to get back on that Plan A wagon... dust off the LBs... and get better!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am probably the least qualified to give advise I don't intend to, but don't be too hard on yourself since we're all humans like you say. Plan A is all about love & <B>real love is unconditional</B>, accepting and a voluntary action. You can choose to whom your love will be directed. Unconditional love means to not expect anything in return: "I love you but I cannot make you love me; I love you because it is my decision to do so and there is nothing I can do to make you love me". I can make myself worth of been loved, I can improve, be a better father, brother, friend, human being but if she doesn't want me as a husband it is her choice.<P>"Fear not: for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy." —Luke 2:10<P>"Our doubts are traitors,<BR>and make us lose the good we oft might win<BR>by fearing to attempt."<BR>—William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure I. iv<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>She took our kids to a new church. It was a different denomination... still christian... but we are Catholic and while I dearly love, respect and honor fully my fellow christian brothers and sisters in christian unity(I have many non-catholic christian friends)... my children still have alot to learn about their own faith... BTW: she taught CCD(Catholic education) for about 6+ years up until D-day and even got me to start teaching CCD about 5 years ago.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If I were witnessing somebody else's wife (before I was betrayed) doing to her husband what my wife is doing to me I would strongly disapprove but would not bee emotionally affected by it. The thing is people (including our wives) don't do things "to us", they do things. Period. It's up to us to react in certain manner. I was raised Catholic myself and know about the importance to have a steady spiritual guidance through our childhood, but what is most important for your children is to understand (given that it's not in your hands if she does or does not take them to a different church) that "God is within, not without".<P>"The mind is its own place, and in it self<BR>Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n".<BR>—John Milton, Paradise Lost, I.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>.… My faith is really what has kept me going through all of this (besides the MB forum.)<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Keep your faith alive, but (& I know it's hard) try to see the other side of the coin & show it to your children, show them that there is only one God and many ways to adore Him; I am not trying to convince you about anything, but I was raised both Catholic & free thinker, my W Lutheran & free thinker; we have not a new but still a non-conventional spiritual path (not that it stopped her —lol—); our D's best friend is Baptist (her father is a preacher & also a good friend of mine) and she (D) has gone to ceremonies of several religious denominations. One thing <B>she</B> has found something in common (and she will only be 8 in 9 days): <B>All these people adore the same God</B>.<P>"God alone suffices". Saint Theresa of Avila.<P>About work… I'll probably e-mail you about something, need to make a few calls & send some e-mails.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>In advance, I'd like to thank everyone who shows such compassion here...I wish all of you could be my next door neighbors...Your friend......who prays for everyone here...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"Every visible thing in this world is put in charge of an angel". —St. Augustine, Eight Questions.<P>Take care very good care of yourself and your children, Jim. Your whole family is in our prayers.<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn<BR>

Jim, <P>Just saw this. Hope your dad is doing better. I will include him in my prayers. <P>As far as the love busting... Well, shame on you. Now that we got that out of the way. What do you expect sometimes we can't control it any longer as it has been said after all we are human. SOmetimes you can on take so much then it comes out whether we want it to or not. I don't think it was all that bad. I have decided that they push our buttons to make us blow up so that 1. Maybe we will get angry enough to tell them it is all over so they won't have to live with the guilt, and 2. So they can feel good about their own anger.<P>Just want to send you {{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}} ad lots of prayers.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

<B>Bill</B>...<BR>Thanks for asking about my dad...<BR>I was surprised that he did come home yesterday... but there is still some soreness.<BR>Thanks for understanding about the 'religion' thing. Everything is so confused now... one more level of confusion... "why is mom not going to our 'regular' service?"... is something I don't need to explain... but have to explain anyway.<BR>I can understand about "your reprieve" too...<BR>I just thought maybe one or two days...<BR>Thanks for your honest concern about me. <P><B>Alex</B>...<BR>Thanks for the prayers for my dad... <BR>I know..."All these people adore the same God"... but does she see this as something beneficial to the children's development... or something to "ease" her conscience or just make it easy for her "new" family. What are my children now to believe in their profession of faith versus that of their mom's? As a Catholic... isn't there something in the regular reception of the Eucharist... and my daughter is reveiving First Holy Communion in about 3 month's time. I don't wish to be remiss in my obligations (I vowed to keep... like my marriage vows) to bringing up my children in their faith... I know what it has meant to me. I do pray for my children's guidance... by all people they come into contact with... christian or non-christian. I really thank you for your words... your caring... and your prayers.<P><B>di</B>...<BR>Thanks for your prayers for my dad too! <BR>Guilt and anger...yep...<BR>I wonder (like you)... how long will it go on?<BR>You're a dear friend... take care of you too!<P>---------------------------------------------<P>Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I know..."All these people adore the same God"... but does she see this as something beneficial to the children's development... or something to "ease" her conscience or just make it easy for her "new" family. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>BOTH</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>What are my children now to believe in their profession of faith versus that of their mom's? As a Catholic... isn't there something in the regular reception of the Eucharist... and my daughter is reveiving First Holy Communion in about 3 month's time. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's tough, but with the help of the Father at your parish you can help them understand that some people praise the Lord in certain ways and that others do it in a different fashion. I would suggest that without actually suggesting that mom's new faith (???) is wrong, to make it clear that <B>Christ himself</B> gave (gave as in gift) his apostles the symbolic Communion for the first time at the height of the Last Supper.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I don't wish to be remiss in my obligations (I vowed to keep... like my marriage vows) to bringing up my children in their faith... I know what it has meant to me. I do pray for my children's guidance... by all people they come into contact with... christian or non-christian.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are obligated to your children and your own soul, but are not responsible for your wife's actions or misfortunes- she has to learn her own lessons. Hang in, pray for profound peace and happiness in God's terms, not your own. When we pray like this we don't dictate God what to do (since I can't see it all like He does how can I command?), rather we clearly and sincerely make our request and conclude that our petition shall be granted "in perfect manner, without hurting anyone, in harmony with God's Will".<P>"May the LORD bless you and take care of you;<BR>May the LORD be kind and gracious to you;<BR>May the LORD look on you with favor and give you peace."<BR>Numbers, 7:24,25,26<P>God bless you, please take care of yourself.<P>((((((((((((((<B>JIM</B>))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((<B>JIM</B>))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((<B>JIM</B>))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((<B>JIM</B>))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((<B>JIM</B>))))))))))))))<P><BR>Alex<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn<BR><p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited February 03, 2000).]

Jim,<P>I haven't been posting lately either, but I read your post today and I am so sorry to hear about your Dad. I hope and pray he is recovering and will be coming home soon. When these kind of things happen they can really take a toll on us. As for the LB, as everyone has said and you already know, we are human and can only take so much. <P>You are an exceptional person and after all you have been through you have shown great strength through all of this. I will pray for you, your family and your Dad. <P>Take care friend, (((HUGS))) and prayers.