Kathi,<P>I have to agree with you on that point. The only problem I know I'm having and I think keystone(not that I'm speaking for him) is too, is that our spouses aren't interested in filling out the EN questionaires. <P>I know I have asked my H to look into this site 2 months ago and fill out the questionaire and still to this day it is sitting right here on the desk just waiting for him. I have filled out mine, but I guess he just doesn't want to work on the marriage as much as I do. <P>How do you get your spouse to fill out the EN questionaire when they don't have an interest? <P>Talking about some of the issues seems to go in one ear and out the other. Whats the next step? I don't have a clue anymore. <P>Any suggestions will be appreciated!<P>falsely accused

kam6318 --<P>FA is right when she says that we'd both love to have our spouses respond to the EN Questionaire. <P>I gave my W "Surviving an Affair" with the express note that it should be viewed as a constructive guide to AVOID an affair. I said that I saw some similarities to our relationship that, if applied, Harley's principals might help us rebuild. She was outright "insulted" and "angry" (her words) that I would even suggest such a book. <P>Further, after reading some pages (I don't know how many), she said the whole thing was a joke. She claimed that you had to read through a bunch of junk to get to "any good parts". And, "if you even think that I'd fill out that ridiculous questionaire thing, you have to be kidding! What a joke!"<P>I would love to get feedback from her. I thought that she'd be open to the EN questionaire. Boy was I wrong! I'll take ANY feedback from her I can get. The problem is she's not offering any. And, I'm growing to the point where I'm not going to keep looking for it. <P>In counseling, she never took anything in what I would consider a serious manner. She was simply going through the motions. Any suggestion -- either from me or the counseler, was met with defiance. "I haven't changed in 15 years of marriage", she'd say. She claimed I was the one who changed, and it would be my job to change back! Very constructive, huh?<P>It I'm screwing up, if I'm not changing to her satisfaction, and she's not going to communicate it to me -- TOUGH S**T. I'm getting tired of it. I want some things of hers changed/improved, too, but it's a major LB. So, I'm moving on with my life.<P>Communication is how we got together in the first place. After 15+ years of marriage, the now lack of communication is how we're gonna come apart!<P>FA --<P>I got my wife a funny card. Like you, nothing that says love or passion. Don't want to LB, since she said she didn't believe me the last time I told her "I love you". And, since she says she doesn't love me. Also, going to send flowers -- tullips. Perhaps it will be seen in a positive, yet non-threatening way. I suspect roses would be taken as being too strong.<P>Let's talk about gifts, shall we...<P>At Christmastime, I got my W some real nice stuff. Personal stuff that I took great care and enjoyment searching for. For some of it, I brought the kids along to troubleshoot, plus to get their gifts from their mom. It was great as we all got "up" for it. I've made a practice of doing this with the kids since it means so much to them, too!<P>What a letdown on Christmas morning. A simple, unemotional "thank you". She DID NOT take the kids to shop for a present for me. They went along when she got a jacket for me. The gift was from all of them. Not a thing from my kids, alone, just the group gift. If my kids are a barometer (they told me), not a lot of time was spent looking for "the perfect gift".<P>At my last birthday, I got a card from my W and kids with an IOU for a Direct TV system. We talked about getting one since cable in our area is so poor. The real reason behind the gift was the tv reception is bad, not because it meant anything to me. When she's watching a show and the reception starts to go out, she asks when I'm going to get the DirectTV. In truth, it is a gift for herself.<P>At her 40th B-day, we held a big bash in our yard. Catered food, kareoke, ballons, bar, you name it. W's sister came late, after all the guests had left. When she was going through her gifts with my W, they came across a gift for a full day at a spa. My W didn't know who gave it to her! After a few moments, I cleared my voice and mentioned that I had given it. My W didn't even know -- yet she knew what everyone else gave her!<P>She'd always talked about wanting to do a spa day, but it was too expensive, etc. I gave her one, and now, nine months later, she's yet to redeem it. Makes you wonder...<P>I'm not looking at the gifts themselves, and I don't want to come off as petty. I'm looking at the intent behind the gifts. The feelings been gone for a while. I guess I didn't choose to see it. <P>Regarding the kids and their friend's parents divorcing -- My youngest was/is really worried since he doesn't want us to be like all his other friends. One had a mom who just died of cancer, two or three others are divorced. My D doesn't say it, but I think she'd be bothered. She's more an observer -- quiet and a little bit a loner like me. In the end, I worry about her, and how she'd react, too. <P>I love my kids. I don't want to screw them up for the rest of their lives. But, I am also wondering what's worse -- staying or going. Since I'm the sole income provider, I would be the one to move out. I don't want to be percieved as the one abandoning the family.<P>I know there is a reason behind everything. We'll all know the reason in time. But,if life was just a little easier.<P>--keystone <P>

Keystone,<P>I want to encourage you to hang in there. The fact that she is still "under roof" is a very good sign, albeit it doesn't feel like it. Jim (NSR)made a very good point early on in this post, about not just avoiding LB's but meeting EN's. I submit to you that you are meeting some of those needs now, or she would have been gone. Try to fill out a EN Questionaire for her, based on what you KNOW abour her, what she has said, not just recently but historically.<P>Then I want to challenge you to step in faith.<P>If you are a faithful person, the author of Hebrews gives us great hope and encouragement. <P>"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." NIV Hebrews 11:1 <P>Personally, I like the King James version of this verse better, but the point is the same. That by faith, faith in God first, faith in HIS sovereign plan, faith in HIS promise to finish what HE started, we can walk in certainty amidst of what we SEE as contrary.<P>Proverbs 3:5& 6 says "Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in ALL your ways acknowledge HIM and He will direct your paths."<P>Solomon is also saying to not trust in what we see, but in what we don't see, the work of the Holy Spirit that is taking place.<P>I encourage you to pray for your W every day, specifically that the Holy Spirit would move in her life, (and yours) and then visualize your relationship in the future. Have the Lord show you what that relationship will look like and hang on to it.<P>I just heard about a couple that after being divorced 6 years are now getting back together. Can we wait that long, is she worth it?<P>I've only recently come to this point myself Keystone, it's not easy, but the peace that comes and the letting go. Meaning that I've realized that it is in God's hands, I am no longer trying to control her or make her come back. I am waiting on the Lord. I will continue to show love in appropriate ways, maybe tough love, which is what plan b is, but love non the less.<P>Another story to read is in Judges chapter 7. Gideon was told to pair down his army so that the Israelites would not be tempted to take credit for the victory, but in fact give God the glory. We need to step out of the way. Make ourselves available to be used by God, but let Him do the planning strategizing.<P>God be with you, keep the faith.<P>Repenting

keystone,<P>I don't know whats up with this site today. I posted earlier this morning and its now gone. Poof! Like the wind. Maybe its trying to tell me something! LOL I have a habit of saving posts that I make because of this reason, so I'll post it again. <P>keystone, <BR>Hang in there, your starting to sound like I have been, really tired of all this crap. Just remember to keep a eye out for yourself. I'm going to apologize now this might get very long. A lot has happened since yesterday. <P>Sorry I kind of jumped in on Kathi and answered for both of us. I thought I remembered(they say the mind is the first thing to go , right? lol) you saying your W wanted nothing to do with the questionaire. <P>Sometimes I wonder why I am here. I haven't had an affair, maybe close to an emotional one that is/was starting, but I came here looking to prevent anything from hapening. Sometimes I feel I don't belong. Its very frustrating. The thing that prevents me for going that route is reading about what has happened to others. I don't think of myself so much as my friends W and what this would do to her. I have my suspicions that my friend might have done this before(and not just one time) and thats why I am very cautious. Having imput from you also makes me think twice.<P>As far as your W goes I'm sorry to say shes crazy!! I'll take the spa day anyday! LOL <P>If my H did half of those things for me I would be happier than I am now. My H never puts any effort into buying me things, he never takes the girls out to get me anything for christmas or my birthday. Like I said half the time I'll be lucky to get a card. <P>Ok, here it goes, tell me this isn't totally thoughtless, my christmas gift I was talking about was a electric hedge trimmer. At first, I was extremely hurt and thought to myself, wow, I guess this is what he really thinks of me when I opened it. The more I thought about it the more hurt I bacame, so then I turned it into a joke with some people because if I didn't I would have sat and cried for days(which I did anyway). <P>He also bought me one other thing, dog clippers(shaver). I know the reason he bought that was because the day before I went to shave the dog and my clipper wasn't working right. Well, the thought was there but I probably would have perferred if he bought me a gift certificate to take the dog to get done instead of me having to do it. It's not something I like to do, I do it to save us the expense of going to a groomer every 3-4 weeks. <P>I do have to give him credit where credit is due for the fact that on our anniversary that past in October, he bought me a beautiful gold bracelet. But then again that was a one time thing. I guess at the time I had not been so receptive to the gift because money was tight and was trying to overcome the fact he bought something so expensive. I know I was wrong and I told him that it was beautiful and asked him to help me put it on. I never took it off, until it broke recently. <P>I think that was holding us together being I have not worn my wedding rings in a year now. Theres two reasons behind not wearing the rings, one is all the weight I've lost, and the other is that I just didn't feel like I was married. Married to what a shadow who appears once in a while. There is no communication, no respect, no caring, nothing. I guess maybe I'm having a down moment here after last night.<P>Last night I knew something was up the minute he walked in the door. The girls and I were eating dinner(he was late again, and no phone call), and he came in and touched me on the shoulder and said hi. Not something he usually does. <P>A while after he asked me and our older D to come and sit in the kitchen that he wanted to talk to us. My thought was oh no here we go again, but I was hoping for something more positive. <P>As it turned out he apolgized to D about the report card incident and about the computer fight that happened when he downloaded the virus. He keeps saying hes trying, that he knows he has a problem. We sat and discussed all of this and D and I told him how much he upset both of us for the way he acted. <P>Then he told D that she could go on the computer (thats where she was headed when he asked her to come in the kitchen). Then it was our turn to talk(yet again, boy sometimes I feel like a broken record! Is he ever going to get this at all??) <P>Well, I know he is scared to lose me. If he loses me that means him having to do things for himself which he has never done. He does not know how to take care of himself and is totally dependent on me to do everything (except work) for him. <P>He started off by telling me he hasn't felt well lately and he's been having problems holding tools in his hands. I told him a couple of weeks ago when he wasn't feeling well to go to the doctor(his standard answer is no). He says he needs me to be there because hes scared of what they might find(heart problems and cancer run extremely high in his family). I would like to be there for him but I think he needs to do the intial steps on his own. I told him that I think a lot of the problems could be due to depression and stress, but only a doctor would know for sure. If he was to take the inital steps then I would be there for anything else that might come up. <P>He insists he can't do this without me. I know what came out of my mouth next shouldn't have, but it did and I have to deal with that. I turned to him in a nice soft voice and said, " I'm sorry for the way I feel but no one was there for me the Sat. morning at 2 am when I was in the bathroom hemorrhaging and crying because I thought I would have to go to the hospital." And then to have to run these girls around all weekend and still do all the things around the house because you were in a mood and sat in your recliner for two days. I am sorry I feel this way, but its hard for me to get over the facts. <P>So as it stands I am there for him after he takes the initial steps. I gave him a hug because I felt sorry for him. I also thanked him for apologizing to D. That took a lot for H to do. <P>This is where the changes question comes in that we talked about the other day. I see a change however slight it may be and I do acknowledge it. <P>I know I might have LB'ed last night but it was how I was feeling at that moment and how I have felt for years due to the same problems. I tried my best to say it in a way to get my point across but in a nice way. <P>I can't remember what else I said I only had a good part of it copied. <P>Have a good day and hopefully this post won't disappear like a ghost! <P>falsely accused<P> <P>

FA --<P>I did get the post. I, too, have been having problems online today. In fact, it wasn't until about two hours ago that I was able to even get the MB site!<P>About last night...<P>Small steps are better than no steps at all. Consider the victory, and consider that you had the presence of mind to realize that your H made an effort.<P>About going with him to the doc...<P>I can understand where you want him to make the inital step. But, do you think that by supporting his emotional needs at this time, it could actually open up a dialogue between you two in other areas? Just a thought.<P>Let me know what you think, and also the outcome from the doc.<P>About whether you should be at this website...<P>You've offered a lot of insight for me. It's been a great help. And, I'm certain that it's helping others. Perhaps the ability to vent here provides you with an opportunity to fix what is lacking in your relationship. Obviously, things are going on in your mariage that you're not happy with. This is the site.<P>Anyway, enough said...<P>Chin Up!<P>--keystone

Keystone,<P>This is from that test under ThisAlex's posting in which I got a 35:<P>31 TO 40 POINTS:<BR>Others see you as sensible, cautious, careful & practical. They see you as clever, gifted, or talented, but modest...Not a person who makes friends too quickly or easily, but someone who's extremely loyal to friends you do make and who expect the same loyalty in return. Those who really get to know you realize it takes a lot to shake your trust in your friends, but equally that it takes you a long time to get over it if that trust is ever broken.<P>From what you have read about me here don't you think that really suits me! LOL<P>Anyway, I needed a laugh this morning,now onward! Maybe you should print that out and have your W take it, it might help you understand her a little more. Just a thought! <P>The whole thing about the trust is so true in my case. Being our relationship was based on friendship it stands to reason why I have a problem with trusting he will make the necessary changes. Can I trust him to change(in the way he needs to for himself)? Can I trust him to be there for me? <P>As far as H going to the doctor, I will be there for him IF and only IF he takes the first step by making an appt. I know that sounds kind of harsh, but I don't feel he will do this. <P>I expected him to come home yesterday(if he was that concerned about his health) and tell me he had made the appt. Well, nothing was said at all. I have a feeling he will drop this now because he thinks since we had a small step in communication that everything is fine(he's still not getting the whole picture here, and I don't know how much more open I can be when he doesn't actually listen to what I am saying). I don't want to ask him about it because then it makes it look like I'm nagging him. <P>So, I will just have to wait it out and see if he takes that first step. <P>As far as this site:<P>I'm glad I've been able to give you some insight and yes posting here has helped me too. For some reason I feel something is keeping me here. Whether it is the fact that I know that in my heart I'm really having doubts about my marriage or the fact that I have even thought about straying from the marriage. <P>It scares me to think that the second fact is a real possibility. So I will continue to read and post and try to understand why this possibility is not a wise decision. <P>Small steps! I have to keep reminding myself this. <P>Aparently there are still some glitches with this site today, hopefully this will post and stay this time.<P>falsely accused<BR>

FA --<P>My W had e-mailed that questionaire to me a few weeks ago. She was a 42, and I was a 38. Interesting observations in the "summary" of what each score means. Neither one was far from the truth. Particularly about truth and loyalty.<P>About your H making the appointment -- you're totally right. HE must make that first move. And, I think you'd be right to support him if he does.<P>I'm pretty sure that he feels as though he's making headway by opening up and talking to you and your D. Although it may not appear to be much of a step in the right direction, it is still a step. Perhaps staying positive (and, yes, biting your tongue), he might feel that it's safe to open up some more. Just an idea -- no scientific fact.<P>I'm gonna open up a new thread after making this post since this one has gotten (really)long. Look for it and we can keep in touch...<P>Chin Up!<P>--keystone