I was the betrayer (2 years ago), and my husband and I have worked through it, he realizes that I'm here to stay, whatever the circumstances. Several months ago he admitted to being with someone else because of the fact that it was hard for him to get over my affair, and he felt our marriage wasn't even a marriage anymore. He told me immediately, and was devastated over what he had done. I was devastated too, but thought well, I did it too. ( let me say that I was catotonic for days over it, it was horrible) I think, do I have a right to even feel bad? What a sorry road to have to go down, one of your own making. But feelings are non-negotiable. He has come to a point where he has admitted that he takes me for granted again (feeling comfortable, although I don't). He says this is healthy for two people to know that they can do this because they trust one another enough to be able to. He trusts me implicitly, knows he has nothing to worry about again (he says). I stay at home, do not have any other activities outside of the home, and spend all of my time with him, because I want to and love him. <P>I want to ask a question, and I want HONEST answers. I really would appreciate that, even though it may hurt me. I need to know honestly what others think of this. Is marriage something that is not worked upon, that is comfortable, and easy? I want BOTH of us to do new things with one another, to be exciting and experience things we've never ventured to before...he is content with ignoring me and giving more time to the net and his games than me, and feels certain that I should do the same. I have talked to him about this SO MANY TIMES! And I have been very calm in my demeanor...he just doesn't budge. Is this the way marriage should be?<p>[This message has been edited by Connor (edited February 10, 2000).]

Connor,<P>No... that's not what marriage is about...<P>It is a constant building effort...<BR>... YES it's work...<P>Constantly applying <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage/recovery</A>...<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Protection:</B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Care:</B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Time:</B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B>The Rule of Honesty:</B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR></OL><P>You need to have a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>... worked out... to move the marriage forward!<P>You need <B>time</B>...<BR>You need <B>needs met</B>...<BR>You both do!<P>Stagnation will just invite an other affair eventually.<P>Is there any counseling going on?...<BR>It could be helpful! <P>Prayers... always... <P>Jim

Jim,<P>Thanks so much for your reply. We aren't in counseling, but we've been to retrouvaille (4 months ago) and we've filled out the Emotional questionairres. I feel hesitant to even go there (his answers)...my husband has always been very affectionate toward me, and now he is withdrawn. We had come to an understanding with what we answered on the questionaires...and now it's like we never even filled them out. I want my marriage to be good, I realize it's not always going to be perfect, but I'm still suffering from what he's done and what I've done, and I'm more than willing to discuss this. I WANT SO BADLY so see a counselor, and he doesn't. He won't even come here, which I've urged him to do. I want to see that he at least cares a little. <BR>

Connor,<P>Sometimes you just got to go to counseling <B>by yourself</B>... for your S to see you're serious.<P>A good counselor will help you develop marriage skills and in time your S will see that (like in Plan A).<P>Just an idea.<P>Jim<P>

Connor,<P>Marriages require constant work. Keeping it exciting is a good thing. It sounds like both of you are not meeting needs. You can and should be a part of his recreation and he should be meeting your emotional needs. Once one need is unmet an affair can occur. Since you have been through this on both ends, you probably don't want that again.<P>I agree with Jim, go to counseling. Even if on your own. You can only change YOU and he may like your changes, therefore, sparking an interest in what your doing different. <P>If you both want to be together forever, don't take it for granted, and don't get to comfortable. I don't remember where I read this but it might have been here. When you trust 100% thats sometimes dangerous also. <P>Try counseling and make some changes again, if both of you have had an affair before, there is no guarantee that it won't happen again. I was with my H ALL the time too and somehow 3 days before XMAS he met another woman and he was gone by XMAS day and lives with her. I thought I was comfortable and trusted him after many ordeals.Now I am sorry I did.<P>Good luck and prayers are with you.

Hey Connor,<P>I agree w/ Jim in all of his suggestions.<P>One one the new skills I have aquired here at MB is the art of negotiation...<P>Do you have the book Lovebusters by Dr.H???<P>I almost like this better than SAA...<P>Read it...<BR>Ask your H to read it, I think you will find it most insightful...<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Jim, guess the general consensus is counseling? I think it's a good idea, but I need to find a good counselor, and that's not easy (I've been before, and have been severely disappointed, maybe phone counseling with Steve or someone of his recommendation?) Also, we have limited funds since I've quit my job and a large mortgage, so seeing a counselor right away is not going to be possible. But definitely a must when I'm able (even if H doesn't want to go).<P>lonelymom, you've hit upon one thing that I need to do more of - start getting on the same page as far as recreational activities goes. We don't really enjoy doing the same things, so he usually just goes alone. Maybe taking small steps this way will improve things.<P>Bill, thanks for that book suggestion. I haven't read it, but next trip to the bookstore I'll be making a purchase.<P>I think that complacency can happen pretty easily in a marriage no matter what stage someone is in, and although it seems to be minor, it can really snowball. I feel like he just feels like there needs to be no work involved, as if we have made the reparations, and it's smooth sailing, but there's a lot of water under the bridge and too many lessons learned that I feel like I can't become too comfortable anymore. <P>I guess working on me is the best bet right now.

Conner,<P>As everyone has said, realtionships take constant work. It should not be stale and comfortable all the time. You know that is why both your EA's took place. You each wanted something new, different, and exciting.<P>No one was more quilty of this then me.<P>Please go to counseling. You mentioned your H goes on the internet, why not send him an E-mail with the link to this thread. He may open it out of curiosity.<P>Good Luck and God Bless.<P>JJ

Connor,<BR>I am a betrayed spouse, I have been working on this subject for quite a while, I could share a few things that might help you understand a little, some things to work on. If you'd like to give me your E-mail, I'd be glad to talk.<BR>Almost Happy<P>-------<BR>TIME

JJ, thanks for the response. You're exactly right in that our marriage became stale and we became more like roommates before the infidelity, and I don't want that to happen again. I thought if anything that we could learn something from this horrible mess, and make a better marriage. I realized after what we've been through that I never want to get back into that rut, and I see it happening now, unfortunately. When I talk to H about it, he just says that what marriage is, it's supposed to be comfortable. He doesn't want to re-hash, and that's not what I'm doing, I just want to be able to talk openly about our feelings a couple of times a week, just he and I with no outside interference, but he just thinks I'm being silly. <P>Almost Happy, my e-mail is connor335@hotmail.com, thanks.

Being the betrayed spouse I can't know exactly how you feel. I think he did what he did not to get back (which is what most of us on the other end has thought of more than once) but to feel impowered again. When this happens to you, as you know, you not only feel shame but have such a lack of self esteem. As I am working this out with my H, I can tell you counseling helps! A LOT! Maybe he's just embarrased about going to someone he doesn't know. Do you have a clergy that could refer you to someone? After being married for 13 years we also became "comfortable" if that is the word. IT'S ANYTHING BUT COMFORTABLE. I feel it is taking each other for granted. Not supporting each other, meeting needs and doing simple things you did for one another before you were married. Another thing that REALLY helped us is books. The first one we read separately "How to Survive an Affair" but then we took turns reading more like The Mars and Venus books. Mars and Venus in the Bedroom is great and be sure to take time out to comment on things. It's written in short segments just for that purpose. Even if you read it solely to him, he will respond. I started reading another by John Gray today that just came out called "Mars and Venus In Touch". It really seems to be good so far so I am going to read this to my H too. You say he is so unresponsive, what was your relationship like prior to your affair? Is that just a personality trait he carries? By all means - find a recreation you both can enjoy. In one of the Mars and Venus books they list many activities to choose from. Try to take an interest in things he likes - you may not find them half bad. Even if you just take time to walk on the beach or in a park, it will do you wonders. The main thing is, show him you love him and are open to do new things together. Tell him "comfortable" is not being apart, but to truly be comfortable you both have to feel nurished and have your basic needs met. I keep my H list of needs in my desk drawer so I am reminded everyday and he does the same. I'm sorry to write your ear off but I hope what I said helps a little. Thoughts and Prayers are with you both.

going to make it,<P>My husband said what you mentioned, he doesn't want to go to a counselor now, he feels his "dirty laundry" shouldn't be aired to a stranger (you're right, he has said that it would embarrass him), and on top of that he rarely expresses emotion or voices his feelings, so I'm thinking this would be pretty hard for him. He wants to put the past behind us and lock it up in a trunk with a deadbolt I think. Our relationship right before the affair was basically the same as it is now, not really taking the time for one another (both guilty here). You're right, I do need to take an interest in some of what he likes to do, it would at least give us something in common. This summer (when much of his sporting stuff starts) it's going to be one of my goals, to join in with him. That's a great idea about keeping an emotional needs list to be reminded, I'm going to try that. Also some of those books you mentioned (good thing we have a half price books close by!) I'm going to get, I've heard others say that How to Survive an Affair is an excellent book.<P>Thanks so much for your reply, you've given good suggestions.