<B>My W is asking for more space.</B><P>Everything I do irritates her. If I'm in the bathroom when she wants in, I'll come out to find her standing there *fuming*. Yet, she won't knock or ask when I'll be done. It irritates her when I say goodbye before I go to work. Helping around the house irritates her. This morning me and the two kids left her a Valentines Day card. Mine had a rose on the front. Inside was printed, "I love you" I added in parentheses (always) and signed my name. That's it. Nothing overdone. I'm sure that irritated her too. But if I didn't get her a card, I'm sure I would have heard about it sometime later. (no card from her or the kids for me)<P>Anyway, tonight we talked. She said, "I can't do this. I can't live this way anymore. I don't want to be angry all the time." After about an hour of discussion. I found out that she wants to get away from me for a while. Whether that means she moves out or she goes on a vacation or I move out, I don't know. We kind of concluded that having me move out would be the easiest. But I feel that would make my kids (ages 3 and 5) feel that I am abandoning them. She says that if we handle it right they can be convinced otherwise. My gut feeling says that no matter what is *said* to the kids, they will feel I have abandoned them, even if I have every weekend with them. I pray with them at bedtime every night. That is soooo special to me. I drive my son to school every day and we practice his spelling words along the way and he asks me questions about clouds and firetrucks and God along the way. This kind of interaction can't be shoved into a weekend when they would rather be playing with their friends.<P>The reason it would be easier if I moved out is that she has the kids all day. All their toys are at home. The kid's friends are around our home. We are not going to be able to afford two full sized appartments in nice areas. One appartment is going to have to be a one bedroom low-rent thing. How's it going to look when the kids come to visit Dad in his run down old appartment.<P>If she doesn't get away from me she says I am going to drive her to the point where she just leaves everything behind and goes away. (inferring that she would just dissappear and start a new life somewhere else.)<P>I am tempted to implement Plan B. Pull all financial support and move out. Set up a go-between person to negotiate the shuffling of kids. And let her struggle without me. She would probably hate me even more for doing that. I haven't had much time for Plan A and she doesn't have much in the way of good memories that would bring her back to me. Plan B may backfire on me.<P>She won't tell me if she is in contact with OM or not. (He's out of the country) She has admitted to one contact since he left but would not say who-called-who or how they communicated (e-mail, phone, etc..) I am seriously thinking of setting up a phone recorder on an extra phone jack in the kids room to get some kind of clue about what's going on.<P>I know that we are to stay at home as long as possible. But W is getting more and more angry as time goes on. Plan A seems to be pushing her farther away. Seems that I can't give her enough space and still be in the same house. I think it is possible that something very ugly could happen if we don't separate. But for the kids sake, I don't want to.<P>Help me out, my friends. Any insight?

Hi Hopeful,<P> You know Harley says when they say"I need more space" they mean they want to have better access to OP...IMHO, I don't think you should leave, she is trying to make you the bad guy, if she is so unhappy let her leave....If you leave it could look like you left the kids and give her a great excuse to go to the OM. I say stay there ....LU<P>

Hi hopefull!<BR>First of all, while there is no confirmation of OM still in picture, there may be and you should set about finding out carefully. If there isn't, it may be a case of W/D from him. If you meet this with understanding and non-judgement, it will probably help. (Do not continue to badger her or ask as this would be interpreted as LB-ing for certain). <P>Maybe try to hang in with Plan A a little longer. Really try to avoid any LB-ing at any cost. As an example, the next time you need to use the washroom for any length of time, before going in you could ask your wife, "I am planning on using the washroom and taking a shower/shave/???. Before I do, did you need it - I noticed that you were feeling frustrated the other day when I took awhile." If you do something that irritates her after the fact, a quick "Gee Jane, I'm sorry I took so long in the washroom. I knew I was going to be awhile and I could have asked you if you needed it first. Next time I will." (If the lovey dovey stuff bugs her now, be the most respectful "roomate" that you can. It would be difficult for her to argue your efforts.<P>Really hear what she is telling you (both verbal and non-verbal). Any clue, negative and positive is your CUE that you are either doing something right or an opportunity to make a change. Since she seems pretty shut down to communications these days, you will have to put your psychic and body language readers into full force. Do you have a good idea what her EN's are? Will she allow you to meet them right now? (I suspect that if she is still involved with OM the answer may be no). If she will not, respect this and just continue to do that which will not upset her, further cementing what a great "catch" you are.<P>Let her know that you understand her need for space. Tell her that you want to work with her to grant her this need and can you both clarify and work on how this can happen with you home? The reality for her of dealing with kids on her own 5/7, having to take son to school, do everything on her own may not be what she wants. Emphasize that you want to co-parent without getting in her way. How about working around the old "how would you feel if ........." (could be everything from walking the dog to watching hockey on t-v). You may get many "do what you want" answers but you may also get plenty of clues as to her real feelings whether they are expressed verbally or through her body language. Interpreting these feelings correctly will allow you to avoid LB-ing which is very important in plan A and the rest of your life together.<P>After giving plan A the absolute best shot, if she continues to see OM (and you confirm this), you would have much better success with a plan B. To leave your home now would not leave her with the impression that you need to from a true Plan A. <P>I'm really not sure what the best approach is to Plan A and not love bust if the spouse you are trying to please states that they would only be pleased if you left. Is there a chance to talk to one of the Harley's on this for you? Bill and Jim (William and NSR) would probably be good sources to define this.<P>P.S. As others on your other thread have said, he is NOT better than you. You need to give this thought up completely and KNOW that you are a great person so that this will be reflected in your confidence to your wife. What kind of a person persues a married woman with kids? (A insecure person void of all integrity) What kind of a person seeks answers to help their marriage and rebuild? - (A great person, YOU).<P>Not sure if any of the above will be helpfull. One way or another, please know that I am cheering for you and hope for better days to come. <P>Cheers!<BR>Lisa

Hang in there with Plan A, and try to avoid moving out. Remember that Conflict is closer to Intimacy than Withdrawal, and it looks like you're seeing more conflict.<P>It may not feel like positive results, but it is. Lisa and Lu have given some very solid advice here.<BR>

OK...I never have been down this road, so take my opinion as just an opinion.<P>Of course your kids would feel abandoned. They would be abandoned, even if that was not your intention. Your wife's space issue is her own problem (one that you should honor as much as possible)...your kids needs should be way ahead of her need for space.<P>I don't think you should move out for a few reasons.<P>1. You don't want to.<BR>2. She really has no intention of letting you back in...although things can change.<BR>3. Your kids need and love you.<BR>4. You may be putting yourself at greater risk for custody or settlement depending on where you live. Don't leave without checking out the legal ramifications...I bet your wife has.<BR>5. You are the scapegoat for your wife's anger, not the cause of it. If she has unsettled issues with OM or is in withdrawl, this extreme anger may be temporary...but moving out could be permanent. You would miss raising your own kids.<BR>6. You would look even weaker to her, so it wouldn't even score any points.<P>If I were you (and I am not, so you do what you want) I would refuse to leave my house and refuse to give up my kids. I would leave the door open for her to leave on her own. I would try to accomodate her need for space the best you can. Do you have a spare room or a second bathroom?<P>I wouldn't beg, plead or persuade. Just state your position and dig in.<P>You are not causing your wife's behavior, so don't buy into that you are going to push her over some edge.<P>She is accountable for herself. If you are being courteous and trying to accomodate her best you can, then that's all you can do.<P>Leaving your home would be unfair to you, unfair to your children and I seriously doubt if it would help your marriage.<P>I think that guy is toying with her and she is going to get dumped.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

hopefull,<P>Don't leave the house. Stay with your kids. She is the one with the problem, she should deal with it.Not by running either. But just because "she" is angry, why should you leave. Then when summer comes, she will have her little neighbor boy back and all will be swell while you live in a dump? <P>Plan A, don't give up. If she is implying she is going to leave, where would she go? And if she leaves her kids behind? She sounds unstable, like the other person said could be withdrawal?<P>Don't move!! Don't go anywhere!! Try and not feel so insecure about this OM (jerk) that he is. By the sounds of him, he probably has a lot of women and your W may not know she is not his "one and only" either. I'll bet he is with his OW right now in another country.<P>Do you own or rent? Can you move the whole family before summer? Yes its good that the kids keep friends, school, etc etc , blah blah, but its not good that mommy has an affair with the neighbor either. <P>Good luck. Prayers are with you.

Thanks very much, all of you. <B>You give me strength!</B><P>The one thought which pulls me down is the fact that our marriage has not been great all along. When I put myself in her shoes I think she may choose either OM or nothing at all over living with me. She lost her Dad and her Grandfather at an early age. Those two men made her feel loved. She has never felt that way since they died until OM came along. Now she says she can't settle for anything less than that. I told her that I'm not asking her to settle for less than that.<P>When she looks back at our history she has no reason to believe that we can have that. I've tried to tell her about the stories and letters in SAA book and on this forum but she doesn't want to hear it (there's the clue that this is withdrawal, I think). Hopefully she will be willing to hear the letter from Sue sometime.<P>You don't know how much I appreciate this forum!!!!!!! Thanks again.

I remember posting like this months ago. And I got the DONT MOVE OUT posts. I didn't follow it and moved out.<P>Let me tell you this:<BR>DONT MOVE OUT!!!<P>She will do everything to make you want to go, if she wants space she can visit her parents, go away or something but dont you leave.<P>My 2 cents, and I wish I had listened.<P>J<BR>p.s. one of the worst things is that people assume that you are the cheater, the one in the wrong when you move out. Funny how society points fingers.

I have to agree with what others have said here: DO NOT MOVE OUT.<P>Be as nice to her as possible (Plan A).<P>You and your children can be a family without her. Hopefully she will choose to stay. If she leaves, hopefully she will return.

Hi Hopeful..<P>Okay, this is only my opinion.<BR>First, DO NOT move out. Separation isn't good. It won't help your situation at all. It will only make it harder.<P>Keep doing Plan A.<P>I think your W is in withdrawal from OM. He is geographically far away, right? I think your W is frustrated that he is somewhere far away and she is hurting. Does he have a W too? If he does, that probably makes her even more upset.<P>Your W is venting off her anger. Who is the best victim to vent off her anger? YOU ARE!<P>Also, she may be trying to get you mad so that you will both immersed in some argument. If both of you start fighting and arguing...then it will only justify her reasons for wanting out of the marriage.<P>Does that make sense?<P>Remember...this is only my opinion only. Keep in plan A.

no trust,<P>OM is divorced. He cheated on his first wife. OW was his pastor's wife. There's character for ya

Jeff,<P>Sorry I'm late...<BR>Busy day...<P>OK..<P>Do I really need to say this...<P><B>DON'T MOVE OUT!!!</B><P><B>DON'T MOVE OUT!!!</B><P><B>DON'T MOVE OUT!!!</B><P>and to be completely clear on this....<P><B>DON'T MOVE OUT!!!</B><P>Now... for the rest...<P>My W did, back in June through August, what your W is doing now!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can't do this. I can't live this way anymore. I don't want to be angry all the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... were, <B>verbatim</B>, the exact words that my told me in August.<P>I, being the naive, trusting, goody-to-shoes husband, even helped her move out by giving her money(part of preliminary divorce settlement)...<P><B>BIG MISTAKE</B>...<BR>She too, promised... it was to be JUST herself moving out...<BR>...I find out 4 months later... she co-signed with OM even before I gave her the money... <P>If you remember... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wayward spouses do not necessarily have a history of lying, but their affair turns them into masters of deception. (page 40 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your W <B>must</B> start feeling the consequences of her actions... as early as possible!!!<P><B>DON'T MOVE OUT!!!</B><P>As far as what plan to be in...<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>! <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>! <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>! <P>and in case you missed it...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>! <P>If you go to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> too early... you will definitely push her into the OM arms...<P>You really need to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> your little heart out for a while longer.... HONEST!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If she doesn't get away from me she says I am going to drive her to the point where she just leaves everything behind and goes away. (inferring that she would just dissappear and start a new life somewhere else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...is a threat...you are going to have to test her on... remember... she has to see and feel and experience the consquences of her decision to continue the affair! And yes... if she separates... she is going to be with the OM... (I'm willing to wager a month's salary on this!!!)... even if he is half wa around the world!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am seriously thinking of setting up a phone recorder on an extra phone jack in the kids room to get some kind of clue about what's going on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... this is a "snooping" activity... a real <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A>... <B>do it only if you know you WON'T get caught</B>!!!<P>If you know my story... my W has [b]nothing[b] but anger towards me since about 2 months after discovery... when she filed for divorce... and started seeing the repercusions(sp?). It has continued unabated for about 8+ months now. I have to hang tough in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... at least until the divorce trial, since my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> hasn't been good or "pure" enough... and there is no sign of her recognition of changes in me. You too may have to do this!... It is hard!<P>I've been where you are!<P>I'm praying for you... <P>Jim