No, no, no popping eyes. To abolish holidays means to admit defeat. None of us are here because we admit to being so discouraged we will get rid of all that makes us feel this way (if that were the case, many of us would just show our spouses the door).<P>We need to look at how we can overcome the defeat that these holidays bring us.<P>Sounds great.......wish I could take my own advice..........any suggestions? <P>In the mean time, I guess I'll change my mind and give you my popping eyes. <P> <P>Lisa<P>

Suse,<P>Yes, how do we raise our boys to not be like their fathers? That was just the thing I was wondering. I have two wonderful boys also. In away, I think they will be better off not having their dad around them. But, how do I prevent them from making the same mistakes their father did? I am determined to love them as good as I can on my own! I think I am already doing a better job with the exception of homework, without their dad around. Things are much less stressful. I have to look at the good side of things. I am tired of looking at the bad stuff. But, it is always there in my head! I can't escape it right now! The boys and I are going to counseling tomorrow. Hopefully, they will have some good advice for us!<P>~Woozy

FHL,<P>From one trench digger to another, I have to remind you of something you said to me once. Your woth does not come from any one person but from God. You are NOT a loser.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

I got my first card in 19 months from my wife. But, it still seemed so empty. She's in withdrawal and it's much tougher than I ever thought. There's nothing like having your bride pine away for another man on Valentine's Day. It's such an ego booster.<P>I did the day up for her as I have always done. I fed the kids early so that we could have a special dinner together at home. I made her all of her favorites. I had everything ready for her when she was supposed to get home. <P>She came home 1.5 hours late from work. She said "what's the special occassion?". I said "It's Valentine's Day." She just said "Oh". That was the high point of the evening. <P>Toss me in to the pity party. I can sulk with the best of you.<P>SHA

I don't get it.<P>My ex always acussed me (after discovery) of not being romantic enough, and sometimes I would not get her a card for her birthday, but that was because I got her a gift.<P>I had to agree that I was insensitive.<P>But after reading these posts I am not so sure. Unbelievable. Even those who are working on recovery still get nothing?<P>I paid attention yesterday as I walked around the office. Not one women in my office (at leat 50 women) got flowers sent to them.<P>I always sent something, or diner , or a present.<P>Maybe I am not so bad after all.

OK...seriously...<P>More than AW...before the affair, I really didn't mind not getting cards and gifts. I knew it was just him. When he had the affair, I have to say part of me was surprised he could participate in a a relationship. He must have shown some kind of charm or romance. (Although he did tell me on one of their dates he ended up playing chess all evening and she was mad he didn't pay any attention to her...who would have seen that coming ?)<P>Now that I can't take the marriage for granted and I know it can be vunerable...and that he must have an ounce of charm in him somewhere...his lack of sensitivity hurts more. Now somehow I know that is not rational...and I am dealing with the same person, but expecting different results. Isn't that the sign of insanity? Mine that is? <P>Oh...my girls shower me with lots of love and affection...as I try to do special little things for them, too.<P><BR>Conner...you are right. H likes comfortable. But I thought he liked comfortable before the affair...then he betrayed me. Now comfortable just fries my brain. Is comfortable, comfortable? Or is comfortable a danger zone? See?<BR> <P>hopeful 1...thank goodness...one man at a time!<P><BR>woozy...OK...I look really whiney compared to what you are going through. My heart goes out to you. But if the last weeks have proven anything with your H...it is not over. He is big time confused.<P><BR>jadedheart...I really wish I could go back to your attitude. I used to have it...maybe it's under this stack of papers...I'll go looking for it.<P><BR>Dazed...hey if we are both down...this could be a long week. Are our H's competing for a clueless contest we don't know they entered?<P><BR>scanman...strap yourself in...you are on the ride of your life. You have the tools you need for the journey...so at this point...just try to hang on.<P>TNT...I'll think about that training. I do try to train him to communicate...even when I have to basically hold up both ends of a conversation. But gift giving? I can not imagine sending my H back into Walmart with that message...and who knows what whako thing he would return with LOL. I'm so glad you got those flowers. That's great!<P><BR>Lor...don't take this wrong...I LOVE that you got those gifts...but in my mood today...I'm tempted to say...even that guy, the poster H for bad behavior...did better than my H. OK...I'm REALLY not myself today.<P><BR>lonelymom...what can I say...again compared to what you are enduring, I am whining like a baby. My heart goes out to you.<P><BR>Lora...well there were some bright spots there. Still a lot of room for improvement, huh? Sounds like part of it may have been H's fatigue...which is a huge factor in my marriage...and something really easy to misinterpret as a cold shoulder. And how do you clarify it..."Honey, are you giving me the cold shoulder because you are emotionally detatched, plain old tired...or are you simply a clueless emotionally stunted insensitive clod?" Somehow I think we need to work on the wording <P><BR>LisaM...I could go on and on about the gifts I actually HAVE gotten over the years...which are given with much the same mindset as the gift you got. BUT don't come down too hard on him...he thinks he's done good. Kinda like the confusion a cat must feel when they arrive at the door with a prize bird or mouse for their owner. I'd just go and have fun...and maybe hint a little more next gift giving time.<P><BR>suse, thanks for the pep talk...and your efforts to raise two future clued men. I know it is him, not me...but doesn't all this emotional need teaching challenge us to look within ourselves for what needs we are not addressing that manifest themselves as negative behavior in our spouse? If I just shrug it off, am I ignoring a chance to meet needs? It is all so confusing some days.<P><BR>SHA...welcome to the pity party...here I'll move over and you can take the seat at the head of the table.<P><BR>Jersey Joe...I think you sound OK!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13<p>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited February 15, 2000).]

FHL - I meant to reply earlier, but had to run. As you said he is clueless. And it's not the action, it's our interpretation - that he doesn't care, etc. You know that's not the case.<P>So, set him up so he can't fail. It's not romantic, but we have to teach the dummies. I told him tomorrow is Valentines, I would like "something". He still might not, but at least I spelled it out for him.

Patient Love....Thank You!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL:<P>Yeah. comfortable. Why is that such a loaded word? For years I thought comfortable was a good thing. Now I feel like every minute has to be an exciting one...and that I have to do the work to make it so.<P>Oh, I'm willing to accept that I have to do all the work in this relationship. I just wish I didn't have to fear that if I slip, he'll seek his excitement elsewhere.

FHL,<P>I'm busting up this pity party. Let me tell you about my Valentine's Day.<P>No card, no e-mail, no call, no dinner, no H even in the state! I'm sure he was in FL sharing the day and night with his lover.<P>Yet, I had a wonderful and happy Valentine's Day. I got what I expected from my H - NOTHING. Yet, from others who love me...I got PLENTY! I got a few cards, a few e-mails and e-cards, a rose at work from a friend, a box of valentine chocolates mailed from my MIL, a crystal candy dish and some potpourri form my kids. They offered to cook dinner for me, too, but they got home so late from school I had already eaten. My Valentine's meal was a tuna fish sandwich and a large glass of Merlot. I had the CD player blaring and I counted this as a day to remember...one in which I felt very, very loved despite the fact that I have no lover, no H and no Sweetheart.<P>I had a good day, anyway....<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

THAT'S IT <P>Actually I'm not even all that afraid he'll seek excitement elsewear. I can't rule it out, but I truly think the whole experience was negative, that he would not want to give up his girls and that he is really horrified by his own behavior. <P>And, like you...I am willing to take the emotional lead. <P>However, I feel like a hamster on a wheel...running as fast as I can being Wonder Wife...and getting nowhere...unless you count the trip to the land of hurt feelings.<P>I know if I stop the only way to coast is downhill. So I depuff and go on.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL - Your H not only has a sleep disorder, sounds like he's got a "love disorder" too.<P>I gave my W flowers and a V-day card yesterday even though we're really at odds right now. (She gave me a card too.) We had dinner together at home and a nice talk, before she had to break off to go watch Ally McBeal. (I hate that show!)<P>Anyway, that's my V-day. It wasn't so bad.<P>--Wex

FHL,<BR>I didn't take it wrong. Guard did great with the gifts, I mean it was more than I would have expected on our best year. But...my apprehension continues.<P>Seeing what everyone else lacked, I feel pretty churlish, but I've gotten less than nothin' before, so I know how that feels as well. I feel like I "owe" something now. And he feels I "deserved" all of this.<P>As one of the character's in THE GREEN MILE said, I think my cheese has done slipped off my cracker. <P>Lor<BR>

Ok, I'm a day late, but I want in on this party too.<P>Heck Mike didn't even tell me Happy V. Day untill after I told him first, and then had to ask if he was going to say it to me too !<P>This really hurt my feelings, as he was at the store Sunday night, I mean a card would have been nice !<P>Oh but he brought me a jar of olives when he came home from work this morning ! Big whoop.<BR>And then he wanted sex. <P>I didn't want much, just a $5.00 mini rosebush, some chocolate and a card. <P>Some days I don't think he will ever get it !<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Olives? <P>I am still caught between seeing this as a meaningless commericial holiday which has no bearing on how much my H does/doesn't love me...and wondering if I just should wake up and smell the cofee...or whatever that saying is.<P>I did point out a week or so ago what day Valentine's was when I was going over the schedule. I was out of town with daughters on a tourney until late Saturday. He asked me what I wanted to do. I said I would be available either Sunday or Monday night for anything and that it would be really sweet if he planned it.<P>I guess I could have put buy your wife a card, you big dummy, on his almighty "to do" list. Or would that have been a disrespectful judgement?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

See, this is where I have a problem with the thoughtless gifts/no gifts/thoughtless behaviour. If they have had good, non LB hints (read - anything short of a brick in the head with "treat your wife well and here's how ya do it), it hurts that much more. <P>If we say nothing, we beat ourselves up and blame ourselves for not enlightening them. Either way it's a bummer and a half and a quarter and nine tenths ...to the exponent 34256434.

To FHL Thanks for the support<P>To Deb OLIVES? Are they used as a sexual enhancer or something? That is a strange item to get on VDAY.<P>To all<P>I agree Valentine's Day was a let down this year. I am thinking of not celebrating any Holiday's at all anymore. Starting with the next one to come. H's bday.

WAY TO GO LONELY MOM!!! Don't celebrate your husband's b-day! I like that idea! You sort of brightened my miserable day!<P>~Woozy

FH&L and lonelymom,<P>Yes olives. Nice green ones. And not even yesterday.<P>You see, he hates olives, I like them, so he sees buying a jar of olives for me as a major thing. He usually does it when he knows he has goosed the moose (messed up bad.).<P>I didn't hit him upside the head or anything yesterday, but I did let him know that my feelings were hurt. Of course a couple of his friends let me know how wrong I was to tell him that.<P>I don't think I was wrong, I have said before that if he does something that hurts me and I don't let him know , then I tend to start getting a resentment , big time. And by the time it does come out , well let us just say it's not pretty. <P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

I had the sweetest thing happen yesterday. My daughter is a girlscout and I bought a bunch of cookies. I started a diet two weeks ago and was in a panic about having that stuff in my house. My landscaping helpers, both of them non speaking Mexican's were cleaning the yard. I stopped and gave them a box of cookies. About 15 minutes later they show up on my porch with a beautiful bouqet of flowers. It felt really good to be thought of even by strangers. I feel like god is watching over me lately. Anyway just thought I would share. Take care all.<P>Gerri