I have read for 2 years on this forum that we need to build our self esteem back up. Take care of ourselves. I've read that we can't rely on our spouses to do this.<P>I looked up the word esteem and this is what I found<P>devotion<BR>honor<BR>love<BR>respect<BR>accept<BR>acclaim<BR>admiration<BR>cherish <BR>consider<BR>treasure<P>How do you do that yourself when you feel you are surrounded by people who don't care? How do you feel good about yourself when those around you treat you in the opposite manner? If you are constantly told how inept you are how can you respect and accept yourself?<P>As parents we are responsible for building our children's self-esteem. Self esteem comes from outside sources. I feel spouses have this responsibilty to each other. How do we gain it on our own without an outside source? I'm not just trying to get it back, I'm trying to get it for the first time in my life.<P>I hear that I need to take care of myself. I feel guilty when I take a bath or fix Hamburger Helper for dinner because I'm pressed for time. I'm made to feel guilty by my children when I "Make" them help with the housework. I'm not supported by my H in this matter either. He says I'm just unreasonable for wanting the housework done.<P>Then comes the problem with narcissism:<P>Self-love <BR>Feeling of over-importance<BR>center of the universe syndrom<P>I have been told that many of us "Betrayed" suffer from mega doses of narcissism. "Why did you do this to ME?" "Where did I go wrong?" "I can keep him faithful."<P>I HATE arrogance. It is one of my H's major Love Busters. I have a hard time differentiating between confidence, self esteem, selfishness, narcissism and arrogance.

Tired LuLu,<P>I would think it more useful to use a dictionary when trying to figure out what a word means, rather than a thesaurus.<P>esteem is­ or es­têm¢, <BR>verb transitive to set a high estimate or value on; to regard with respect or friendship; to consider or think. <BR>noun high estimation or value; favourable regard; estimation of worth. <P>I conclude from the definition that self esteem is the worth or value you place on yourself. "Self-worth" if you will. I don't think it means that someone is worth more or less than the next person, introducing relative comparisons to others usually indicates it's not working at all. But more "Do you value yourself as a person"?<P>confidence (kon¢fi­dens) noun firm trust or belief; faith; trust in secrecy; self-assurance, self-belief; assuredness, especially in the outcome of something; admission to knowledge of secrets or private affairs; a confidential communication. <P>So if you are confident you believe you can trust others to act in a certain way (external). Internal or "Self Confidence" is when you believe in yourself. An example might be skiing double black diamond runs. I personally do have the self confidence to do that, having done it many times before without incident. Most skiers do not have that level of self confidence and rightly should not. To me, that's where you start to cross in to arrogance, when you believe you can do something and should be thought of as capable of doing something when in fact there is no reason to hold that belief. Perhaps you don't have the training or the education. Perhaps you haven't been there. I've seen lots of skiers ride home in the ambulance. In almost all cases they were skiing where they shouldn't be, i.e. they were beyond their capabilities. That's where I believe you cross into arrogance. But let's look at the definition anyway.<P>arrogance ar¢e­gens, <BR>noun undue assumption of importance; conceit, self-importance. <P>Well, the actual definition is based on importance. Reminds me of this Legal Assistant I once knew who complained bitterly about her job. In her opinion, she held the entire office together, did more work on cases than all the lawyers combined, and solved most of the cases herself. She was under the belief that the Lawyers she worked FOR were unnecessary since she did everything anyway. And she was very offended that they earned considerably more than she did. This is an example of arrogance by the definition. She had an "undue assumption of [her own] importance" to the organization. In fact, she was so far from understanding the difference between a law degree and being "barred" and a legal administration certificate, that she couldn't even conceptualize the difference.<P>self'ish adjective chiefly or wholly concerned with one's own welfare and interests, usually when accompanied by a disregard for others; tending to perpetuate or duplicate itself in the genome without affecting the host or phenotype (genetics). <P>I think if we ignore the "Selfish Gene" then that one is self explanatory.<P>narciss'ism noun sensual gratification found in one's own body, whether as a normal stage of development or a pathological condition. <BR>narciss'ist noun and adjective. <BR>narcissis'tic adjective. <BR>[Latin, from Greek Narkissos a youth who pined away for love of his own image, and was transformed into the flower; the connection with narke numbness (with reference to this plant's supposed effects on the body) seems to be fanciful] <P>It is obvious to me whoever accused you of "narcissism" in the example above did not themselves understand the meaning of the word. Besides it sounds a bit like the kettle calling the pot hot if you understand what I mean. How in the world does someone who is having an affair get off accusing someone else of being narcissistic? One would need a fair quantity of selfishness and arrogance to make statements like that. See above definitions.<P>There is a difference between a healthy self-interest and respecting your own boundaries and "selfish narcissism". Please thank whoever accused you of that for their opinions and also for demonstrating the ability to speak with their head so far up their [censored]. I feel like you should have had to pay admission to see a "Side Show" of that quality.<P>But now to look more at you. You didn't think I would type this long and let you off that easy, did you?<P>You used the phrase "I'm made to feel guilty by my children when I "Make" them help with the housework." I hope you typed that by accident.<P>Your children did not "Make" you feel anything. Nor are they capable of "Making" you feel anything. How we decide to feel given certain stimuli is our choice. When you allow others to decide how you will feel for you, you give up all personal power. You are the one who made yourself feel guilty.<P>Children are children and children will do what children will do, and that usually includes trying to avoid housework. They will try any trick in the world they think might work. That's just the simple facts of it and a situation any parent must deal with. If you choose to feel guilty every time you need to do a little "good parenting", don't be blaming them. That was your choice.<P>Next time you make them do the chores, think to yourself "I am being a good parent. I am teaching them self reliance and a habit of contributing to the household in which they reside. These will be important skills for them when they are adults." That doesn't mean they will agree with you at the time. But they don't call it "the arrogance of youth" for nothing.<P>Remember, just because somebody calls you something, doesn't mean you have to agree with their assessment. People don't open their mouths for nothing. Chances are, whenever someone else takes it upon themselves to describe you, what they are doing is either trying to manipulate you or justify their own actions and perceptions. You do yourself a disservice if you blindly agree with them.<P><BR>

LuLu,<P>When we are married, we all have a certain level of self esteem and confidence. When we are betrayed, naturally those things go out the window. <P>The only person who is selfish and narcisstic (is that the right word), is the BETRAYER. By the very nature of an affair, that person is taking care of only themselves. They also seem to have a new confidence that they never displayed so arrogantly. Look at me, I have 2 people after me. <P>You are a good mother if you teach your kids housework. You are a good mom if you make your kids dinner, regardless, hamburger helper has a lot of the food groups in it, and hey, its food. If you take a bath, good for you. After all you do for everyone else, thats the least you could do since there probably isn't anyone else out there doing anything good for you. <P>I didn't read the true meanings of the words in the message above me, my eyes hurt from crying and my brain isn't working well today.<P>

Tired Lulu, I'm hoping that your post has nothing to do with my answer to you on the "what did we win" post.<BR>By telling you that I felt you should try to build up more self esteem and be more confident of yourself, in no way did I touch arrogance, and even less narcisism. YOu certainly did't get those words from my post.<BR>Encouraging you to do things for yourself doesn't mean the same as encouraging you to be selfish either.If you - as you said in your post - do things for your h that don't make you feel happy, chances are they won't make him happy either.<BR>I can understand that you are having no help to feel more confident, and indeed if your h is intent on making you feel worthless it is in my opinion one form of abuse.But in any case my suggestion stands, you need to take action for yourself, including counseling - for yourself -if needed.<BR>It is commendable that we think about the others first . But if in doing so we're "erasing" ourselves, it might not help. You are a wife and a mother, but you are also a person. WHy should you feel guilty for taking time to take a bath or fix a fast dinner? <BR>In any case my post was not written to offend you in any way, and I just re-read it and found nothing tht could have done so. From your post I got the feeling - stressed that it was the feeling I got reading it, didn't necessarily had to be reality - that you needed to rebuilt your sense of self worth. I still do. ANd I still think that even thought we might have help - also told you I asked my H for help rebuilding my self-confidence after the affair - I believe we have to do that ourselves and for ourselves.<BR>Have a great day, you are worth it!<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I'm not offended. <P>First off, I didn't have a regular dictionary so I had to utilize WordPerfects Thesauras as my only alternative.<P>We do have a medical dictionary and the application definition of narcissism is <P>- A state in which the individual regards everything in relation to himself and not to other persons or things.-<P>I was told I was having narcissitic tendencies by my healthcare providor. That was nice wasn't it.<P>I don't feel I am being arrogant, but my dislike for the arrogance in my husband has effected my ability to act confident.<P>I honestly don't have any idea how to go about being happy with myself. I can't accomplish the things I set out to do. I would feel really good if my house was clean and pretty, yet there is the barrier of no help and support from my H and thus my children. I feel I could like my job, but then it is just made fun of and/or disregarded by my H.<P>I feel my physical appearance is good, but resent it because I can't hardly eat anything and stay this thin. <P>I don't know how to do something for myself, because I have been so unimportant to all those around me for over 16 years. Anytime I do something for me, then it is something staying undone for someone else.<P>I need a procedure on how to gain self-esteem. I have told my H that I need him to help, but I still distrust anything he says and does so that goes nowhere. How can you feel good about yourself when all you have to draw is a history of personal failure plaguing your mind and an outward environment filled with inconsideration and lack of appreciation.

Tired LuLu,<BR>I agree with your appraisal of the situation as long as you use the world's definition. <P>I don't use the world's definition. I use the Creator's definition. Self esteem comes when you have a wonderful relationship with Jesus. The reason I still have my sanity after 8 affairs in 7 years along with the continued mistreatment is because He has always been there when no one else will. I read the Bible regularly. I am close to reading the entire Bible in a year. It has been so comforting letting Him speak to me through His word and through listening to sermons on the radio.<P>He knows everything about us. It is a shame that we continue to ignore Him when He has the answers to all our problems. No, the problems won't go away until after Judgement Day. But we will be better at coping with the trials that torment us. I can count it all joy for those trials that I know are allowed to occur which draw me closer to Him. Most trials are Satan's attacks to discourage us in order that we renounce God and follow him (Satan.) The remaining trials are the result of our disobedience and thus is the chastening that God does to correct us which the trial is more than likely the result of Satan's initiation.<P>Feel your apin and frustration. I go there often now. Yet, I know that my W is throughly confused because she doesn't know Him as she thinks she does (she is a professed Christian.) I make the distinction because there are going to be loads of people who are going to hear, I never knew you when they meet Him on Jusdgement Day. It says so in the Bible.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

I agree with you and know you are speaking the truth. I initially turned to God and asked him to guide my heart. <P>I feel I have separated myself from God through my hate and resentment toward my circumstances and my H's affair. I am in a state of spiritual dispair feeling that I cannot do what must be done to make myself right with him and to expect his help.<P>It all comes down to strength, both physical and spiritual. I'm tired and discouraged by my lack of progress. I'm tired. I'm very very tired.<P>I am the servant in the story told in the Gospels that busied herself with dinner and cleaning and complained about her sister that had stopped to hear Jesus teach, but I am stubbornly convinced that if I take the time do that, then something else must go undone. This is the narcisstic tendency my doctor referred to, that I feel that the only way something will get done is if I do it, but I'm the only one that cares whether the house is clean or how dinner gets fixed as long as it is fixed, so who else will do it? <P>I got off the subject, sorry.<P>

Tired LuLu: I know exactly what you mean, but I am the betrayer. I have given everyone else compliments, self-esteem boosters, was very considerate of others feelings till I was blue in the face and getting very little in return. Instead of looking at other options of getting my needs across to my spouse and family, I took a road that caused me pain, callousness and self-destruction by looking for it elsewhere. I am trying to rebuild myself from the basement floor. I did learn something from it though and remarkably enough it was from here. These folks have been a great self-esteem booster to me especially during my darkest days. There is love, respect, honor, considerations and countless other positive vibes here. I realize that we are all hurting here and my apologies for not considering the pain others are going through. But...in this room is where I come to find the encouragement I need to find happiness and positive self-esteem within my own being. Each day is a struggle, but with you all here, I will try.<BR>LuLu: You spoke to me when I needed your kind words to survive. You are indeed an excellent and devoted friend. My thanks to you and Hamburger Helper's not bad. I'll bring the salad. Dole makes an excellent salad in a bag. smiles to you

Our counselor told me about a book he wants me to read (he's lecturing about it too soon) called "Why Am I Afraid To Tell You Who I Am" - by John Powell. This book is supposed to be for people dealing with low self esteem. I, too, have lacked self esteem my entire life. When I was growing up at 10 years old I weighed more than I do now! From then on there have been many things that have always made me feel less important. Although my H used to be so affectionate and tell me how much he loved me, thought I was beautiful, etc. I never believed it. He felt by my inactions or not responding were my way of telling him I didn't care for him. I was never able to tell him until today at our counselor. Although you feel everyone makes you feel that way - truly you are the only one who can make you feel it. I've had these characteristics way before my H ever entered the picture. Take time to evaluate your good and possitive traits. Accept a compliment when given. (I'm just learning to do that without wondering if someone is being sarcastic or not.) All these feelings I've kept (from childhood on) have built up a wall that doesn't invite anyone in. I've decided I'm breaking it down, piece by piece. I am valuable, trutsworthy, compassionate, a good mother, daughter and wife. I'm learning to let myself be happy. One more bit of advise that taught us both a lot today...there is a "test" you can take that states how you feel about yourself and others in different situations and what you need. It's called FIRO-B. Many counselors, doctors, navy and others give this test. If you have problems trying to get it,even for yourself, write me. I'll get a copy to ya! Good luck and best wishes to you.<P>------------------<BR>

Tired LuLu,<BR>I understand where you are coming from. I have found that it is much easier to remember that everything we do should be to His glory and honor. It goes along with the pray unceasingly scripture.<P>I have found that we often look for people to fill a need that only God can fill. He has to be first and the focus of EVERY aspect of our lives. Society tells us that it should be something else, usually ourselves thus why we are here.<P>He is the only one whose promises we can trust because He is ALWAYS there. We just sometimes ignore Him or take Him for granted much the way we do our spouses. <P>Just as it is work to sustain a relationship between a man and a woman. The same holds true for having a relationship with Him. It requires work. The only way for Him to talk to us is to read the Bible.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Tired Lulu, I am glad I did not offen you. It wasn't my intention.<BR>I can understand what you say and are feeling, that's why I'm so insistent that you need to build a sense of being worth.<BR>If you want you can e-mail me and I can share with you some of the things that helped me.<BR>In any case I really wish things can improve so you can live a happier life. The way it seems from what I read is that in order to be there for everyone you are not being there for you, and your H and children are getting so used to it that instead of helping you they are making it worse.<BR>take care lulu, you deserve to be yourself and appreciated not put down.<BR>Hugs<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Does anyone out there know much about Social Anxiety?<P>I have been seeing advertisements concerning it lately and I am intrigued.<P>Here is what I experience when I think about talking to a someone not within my very limited comfort zone or going to a party or other social event:<P>1. I immediately try to think of something that should keep me from doing it.<P>2. I begin to sweat and my heart begins to race.<P>3. I start to feel like I'm having an adrenaline rush and sometimes even get lightheaded.<P>4. My speech is affected and I usually end up salivating too much.<P>5. I also leave convinced I have made a fool of myself.<P>6. I usually end up avoiding the situation no matter how much I really wanted to participate.<P>These feelings make it very easy to just hide in a closet. I even feel this way around much of my extended family and inlaws.<P>This has been the case with me since school. The strange part is, I have no problem with Public Speaking. I prepare and get a little nervous, but when the time comes I do just fine.