My W and I had a discusion last night which she initiated. She was telling me how she *knew* that I couldn't possible fulfill her needs. That I had failed to for 10 years etc..<P>I told her that I hadn't known about the four rules of marraige. That I have learned sooo much since then and that I think that we owe it to the kids to give this a try. And that there are many others who have expressed the same feelings of disgust toward their S but still tried the four rules and had transformed their marraiges into something wonderful. She didn't believe that those other people felt the same way she does about me.<P>The suggestion that we do this for the kids made her angry. She says that she *is* thinking of the kids. That the kids have seen her sick or crying more that they have seen her well and that they deserved to have a Mom who was able to fuction. She said I wasn't listening to her. That nothing has changed. When she told me before the affair she needed me to be a leader, etc, I didn't listen then, and now that she wants me to go away, I am still not listening.<P>So I guess that negotiating for her to try out the four rules of marriage is a LB too? How will this ever turn around?<P>Are these discussions a good sign? Moving from withdrawal to conflict? Or is this still withdrawal? I thought plan A involved negotiating these things. If I can't negotiate, what good is it? Did I make a mistake by trying to educate her about the marraige building concepts? I thought it was important for her to know that others in her position have come through this and thrived.

If she wants you to be a leader, then fine. LEAD HER TO A COUNSELOR, no if's and's or but's! TELL (don't ask) her that you set up an appointment for the both of you to see a marriage counselor.

hopefull_1,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are these discussions a good sign?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...any and all (non <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bust</A>-ing) discussions are a great sign!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Moving from withdrawal to conflict? Or is this still withdrawal?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...is always hard to determine. You're trying to hit a moving target if you've think you've found it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought plan A involved negotiating these things. If I can't negotiate, what good is it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...Nope... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> is <B>not</B> about negotiation. Only when the affair is over and you are in recovery are you at a point where "honest" negotiation can being. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A <B>IS</B> Avoid angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, annoying behavior and dishonesty (i.e. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!) at all costs. (page 75 of SAA) <B>AND</B> at the same time try and meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> (page 77 of SAA).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is nothing about fairness in <I>who</I> does the work to rebuild the marriage... or fairness in "negotiation". The betrayed has to compete against the 'ease' of the affair... the 'addiction' of the affair. That's why we(at the MB forums) are here... this is a monstrously difficult task without the support of others!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Did I make a mistake by trying to educate her about the marraige building concepts? I thought it was important for her to know that others in her position have come through this and thrived.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... yes... unfortunately... it is almost <B>always</B> a mistake to <B>educate</B> the wayward. It is almost always taken as a form of disrespectful judging... yes... it is important for her to know that you can make it... unfortunately... <B>you</B> won't be able to do it alone... it will take her own ability to see the consequences of the affair and her actions during the affair.<P>If you do the <B>best</B> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... you will have planted the seeds of her "understanding"!<P>Consistancy in NO <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> and meeting <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>... will convince her you can change...(it takes time)...<P>Your words... books... forum posts... can't do it... <B>YOUR ACTIONS CAN!</B><P>Prayers for perseverance... <P>Jim

Okay, here is my take on this, as a betrayer:<P>She may be feeling guilty, now that her om is away...so she is pushing you away, who wants to be faced with the guilt of seeing the person who you are hurting everyday?<P>She probably honestly feels that you can not meet her needs, especially if you haven't for the past ten years. I know that feeling well, she may be feeling something she has never felt before, her needs being met. She may also be feeling a Huge amount of resentment towards you. "Where was this the past ten years I was asking for it?"<P>The no good times to build on from your profile also strikes a chord here. In our marriage we each worked for our own goals and for the kids, there was so seldom and *us*. Once you find the *us* in another relationship, someone who listens, meets those needs and you have that *us* it makes you realize how much you have been missing.<P>She has to want to do it for Her, not for the kids. Do you want someone who is staying only for the kids? or do you want someone who is staying to be with you? That only pushes her farther away, I am guessing she is feeling huge amounts of guilt over your family, you adding to it only makes you less desirable. She is, I am positive, no oblivious to what effect this is having on the kids.<P>You can't make her go to a couselor until she is ready. YOU go, she will wonder what is being discussed, share it and show her your growth. She won't go til she is ready, if ever.<P>Your goal now is to make yourself attractive to her. By educating her, "lecturing" her on the kids, you are making the guiltfree, non stress relationship so much more attractive. <P>I can't say what she is going to decide but can say you are probably pushing her away.<P>Do your own thing or the "180" in divorce busting. or the super plan A that SamH said.<BR>It may not "win her back" or change her mind, but it will build up you and make you more attractive to her. <P>Has she read any of the relationship books? if they are around the house, I would bet she has. Do you know what her needs/love language are? <BR>Do them subtley and consistantly, even if she is not responding she is noticing, and the more she notices, the more she will push you away. From guilt, from doubt, from resentment. But if you want a chance that is your best bet, from a betrayers stand point whose story sounds so familiar to your wifes.<P>Cat<p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited February 17, 2000).]

Cat,<BR>I guess I don't know what I'm supposed to say to her when she says she wants us to separate and make it as easy on the kids as possible etc... It's very hard not to say, "Well I think we should give this a try. Others have been successfull with it etc..." What should I say instead? I*must* disagree with her, but how without LBing?<P>Also, should I hide the SAA book? I haven't put it out in the open, but I have it in a stack of other books I'm reading. If she reads about Plan A will that make it less effective?<P>Cat,if you don't mind me asking, please keep an eye out for my posts. I desperately need people like you to respond because of the similarities you have to our situation. You have been extremely helpful and more appreciated than you'll ever know.<P>Thanks!

When she says she wants to separate, I as a woman would want you to reply honestly and with sincere emotion that you don't want to separate because you love her. Tell her why you love her, let her hear it and let her see it in your eyes.<P>Don't lecture or teach. Take it from someone who has been disciplined by her husband for over 16 years, it causes the defenses to go up and also the resentment.<P>You can't make her feel like staying. You can only show her the possibilities and the willingness you have to please her and then hopefully she will change the way she feels.<P>I feel some sort of emotion from my H might just possible make a small dent in the barriers I have put up between us, but his pride keeps him from doing it.

well, I think your idea of just being there without "bothering" her is the best.<BR>It will not be easier on the kids if you seperate. <BR>But you have to be the one to make it do-able. Sparkydog and I could not do that, we were seriously killing each other and destroying each other. <P>Maybe approach it with her as you are there for the sake of the kids right now, being "roommates" set up rules/ guidelines, who does what...are you able to have a conversation with her at all about these things?<P>Maybe approach it in the sense that right now it is not affordable to have two places where the kids can feel safe at, and until that point we have to make it work the best we can? Because if she is worried about the kids she is going to want you to have a place where they can go and be "home" there too. <P>Do your own thing within the house, don't interfere with her or question what she is doing. Think back to the things she wanted you to do before (help with the kids, etc)and do them now. Focus on the kids right now.<BR>Do you know what her emotional needs are? Have you read the 5 love languages?<P>Realize that Every thing you do wrong or everytime you slip and lovebust it is only going to re-inforce the idea of "see I KNEW you couldn't do it!" She is going to be looking for things to "hate you for" and to justify leaving. And know that every lovebust will erase every single thing you have done to that point. <P>(That is where Sparkydog and I run into problems, everytime I think "hmm maybe" he does a bigtime lb or guilt trip on the kids or tries to "educate" me of how wrong I am and it empties everything he has done. LOL hell even reading his posts here at times does it, as I feel like he is judging me, and Yes I know he has every right to, and maybe I shouldn't read, but I am learning from the board also.)<P>Anyways! Keep it up, don't smother her, don't pressure her, approach her as you would a not to well liked co-worker, with tact and diplomacy and a TON of patience. Ask her what she wants, but don't give into the seperating if you are not at the point yet and it is still doable with you both in the house. <P>I'll keep an eye out for your posts and am glad I am helping in some way. <P>Cat<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited February 17, 2000).]

OK...remember I have not been in your situation, so I will let others augment or correct this suggestion.<P>When you ask what to say when she tells you she wants to seperate, I guess I'd say something like this:<P>Wife, I understand that you are desperately unhappy in our marriage right now. I finally understand how you came to this point after all these years, and I deeply regret I did not make a greater effort to meet your needs during all the years of our marriage. I am listening to you and I hear you when you say you want to seperate...and if that is what you want to do, I can not keep you in this house or in this marriage. It would break my heart, and I intend on making changes within myself regardless of your decision. Although I do hear you and I am listening, I do not share your belief that seperation would be better for either of us or for our children. I do understand why you believe this and why you are wary of my capacity for change and I know you don't think I will ever meet your needs. I think I can, but as I said, it is your decision whether you or not you stay in our home or in our marriage.<P>I know this may make you angry, and it is not my intention, but I AM committed to making our marriage everything God intended by being the Husband and Father that I should be. You are free to work with me in our marriage when you are ready, or to seperate and leave our home. I have given this much thought and I can not leave you and I can not leave my children. If you decide to leave, I will provide for them in our home.<P>For right now, I am willing to give you the time and space you need by working out what ever makes you most comfortable in our home. I think our new schedule is taking some pressure off, but if there is anything else I can do, please let me know.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I think the general idea of FHL post is good, but am not sure she would listen or even hear you at this point.<P>In the past was she one to express things in writting? Maybe you could write that to her?<P>Or if she bring it up again just plain and simple say:<P>"I understand you are feeling trapped and resentful for me for staying, but at this point in time I think it is best for me to stay with the children. I will do my best to stay out of your way, but will be here if you need anything. My focus will be on the children, not you, Feel free to act as if I am not here." <P>Or something shorter, I don't think she will want to listen to how you have changed, it won't matter til she sees it. Consistantly and quietly show her, words don't mean anything if they are not backed up by actions. And I promise she is watching and taking note. (which is more then likely why she wants you to leave, you are making her doubt herself and her choices)<P>Cat

Boy did I miss the mark on this one! OOPS!!!<P>I have tried the education thing, the God thing, and the kid thing over and over. I didn't realize I was pushing him away. I have decided to give him space and see what happens. I wrote him a letter simply taking responsibility for MY actions and MY wrongs in the marriage based on the Basic Concepts. It has made me feel cleansed. I have decided not to call or contact since it only shows desperation, weakness etc. <P>Thanks for your dialogue! It has helped a lot!<P>

FHL,<P>I will be committing some of those phrases to memory!!! I don't know what I would do without you. I think you are hitting the nail on the head. I have said much of this but I keep wanting to *educate* her because I want so badly to tell her that there *is* hope. She has no hope in the marriage.<P>Cat,<BR>I certainly hope you are right about making her doubt herself and her choices.<P>NSR,<BR>As usual you keep me doing it "by the book." I'm trying. It sure is hard! Thanks for your dedication! I know you are suffering too and it's very admirable of you to be thinking of others as you do. I appreciate it!<P>Tired LuLu,<BR>I'll keep your advice in mind, thanks.<P>trying2_4give,<BR>She won't go unless I hog-tie her. I'd assume that that would be a bit of a LB (besides, I'd enjoy that *way* too much . However, you guys have said to do things I enjoy ... hmmm.)<p>[This message has been edited by hopefull_1 (edited February 17, 2000).]