I just got back from an out of town business trip. H couldn't wait to leave to be away from me. He's living with his mom and dad and he stayed at the house with the kids while I was away. His OW lives about 800 miles from here, so he rarely sees her. I'm seriously thinking about giving up. Just get divorced and get on with my life. Am I just fooling myself that I can do this all alone? He wants no part of me or our marriage. He wants to hang out with me and the kids, but treats me like a buddy or something. I can't be buddies with him like that. I want the whole relationship. I think he believes he can end our marriage and we just continue to be good friends. We were friends before we ever dated, but I don't think I can go back to that. And it's becoming too painful to be around him. I wonder if for my own mental health, if I wouldn't be better off letting go and accepting the end of our marriage rather than continuing in an effort that only serves to make me feel like a doormat. Somebody help me, please!<P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Keridwen,<P>This is all so painful. I think you should think long and hard about whatever you decide. His OW lives far, do they still have the affair?? <P>You stated he acts like he likes to hang out and "be friends". That would be hard on me too. Maybe he is confused. Why would he want to be hanging out with you ?? Could it be, he is confused too? It sounds it.<P>I am no expert, but are you in Plan A? Maybe this is when you move to Plan B so you know you had no regrets? I am not sure, I hope one of the "experts" will answer you so I can learn it too. <P>I know I change my mind DAILY on what I want to do about H. I think its part of his instability rubbing off on me. You are in my prayers.<BR>

Keridwen7, <BR>I just posted this message at the bottom of Distressed post titled 'wait and see, or decide and act?' While it might be specific to her situation, I think you get encouragement from it as well, so I've just copied here for you.<P><BR>Distressed,<P>I can feel your anquish at the situation. It's got to be incredibly frustrating to wait and wait and wait...not knowing.<P>I have a few thoughts for you though. We who are trying to bring our spouse back to the marriage have God on our side. It is not only the right thing to do it is the righteous thing to do. The entire word of God is about reconciliation, from the old testament with God making a covenant with Abraham, (Genesis 15-17) to Moses leading bringing God's people out of Egypt (bondage) (Exodus 6-12)and giving them the Law, right through to Jesus who was the covenant sacrifice and the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 27-28).<P>In Malachi, the last book of the old testament we read "'I hate divorce,' says the Lord God of Israel...so guard yourself in spirit and do no break faith."<P>He is calling His people to a higher level of trust and faithfulness than we can humanly comprehend, but is possible with the help of the Holy Spirit.<P>Personally, I am convinced that I will never file for divorce, nor will I willingly sign a divorce. As long as my W rides the fence, (granted mine is only a few months, not a year and half, check back with me :-) )then I will remain hopeful. Paul said to the Corinthians (2 Cor 4:16-18) "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."<P>In the face of my W's cold demeanor it is very difficult to think about what is NOT seen, but that is where my faith is, not in what is seen but what is not seen, the work the Lord is doing in both of us.<P>On another note, Jesus told the Pharisees (Mat 19: 8&9)that "Moses PERMITTED (emphasis mine) you to divorce your wives because YOUR HEARTS WERE HARD (me again). But it was not this way in the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."<P>What he is saying is that we can divorce, but it is not because of what the other did, but because of our own path of unforgiveness. He gives us the okay to remarry IF there has been marital unfaithfulness. (by the way, some biblical teachers understand that the real interpetation has nothing to do with adultery but in fact an incestual marriage.) The point is still good regardless. Divorce was never endorsed or encouraged, but in fact we believers are called to a path of forgiveness. "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?" Mat 5:46<BR>"But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Mat 6:15<P>I am realizing that I need to pray for my W that she forgives me, not for me, but for herself. For if she chooses the path of a hard heart, she is the one who will be hurt, more than I.<P>Now that I've been so preachy to you, d:-) Let me say on a human level, I wonder what is the attraction to the OW, if there even is one. I wonder if he isn't dealing with guilt or shame. I know myself I have struggled with my own forgivness. I know God has forgiven me, but allowing myself to forgive myself, that's another matter. I seem to think that I can forgive myself when my W forgives me. The truth is that I need to forgive myself whether or not she ever does. Have you specifically let him know that you DO forgive him?<P>I would encourage you to hang in there, let the spirit lead you, use this time to draw close to Him and He will honor your faithfulness. Even if the end is not your choosing, you can stand before your H and God with the confidence that you did the right thing.<P>God bless you and us all.

Keridwen7,<P>This is a decision <B>you</B> must eventually make...<P>A hard one...<P>There's been a lot of discussion on these forums on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> migration...<P>I started a couple of threads a while back... check them out...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011323.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A>.<P>Basically... if you are really starting to fal out of love... and have a near zero balance of "love units" in your <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>... then it's time to consider <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>! Don't rush the divorce option yet... it is much more hurtful than even the affair!<P>My prayers are with you in your time of decision... <P>Jim

Thanks for everyone's response. I'm still feeling very confused, but I did see my therapist last night and she thinks maybe it's time to put some distance between me & H. I am not sleeping more than 3-4 hours a night, holding a full time job, taking care of 3 kids, 3 pets, and trying to figure all this "stuff" out with H. I think being around him is making me feel even more stressed out. I am seriously thinking about taking a week of vacation to visit my best friend (alone) in another state. Just to get away and have some peace to come to some decisions. In answer to your question Lonelymom, Yes, H & OW are still seeing each other. When she passes through Atlanta on business trips they get together. Once a month or so. And I know they talk on the phone a lot. He sends her cards and flowers and stuff. I am so depressed and sad right now. I think I am going to have to proceed to Plan B. At least for my own sanity.<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Hi K7,<BR>In your original post, you said:<P>"He wants no part of me or our marriage. He wants to hang out with me and the kids, but treats me like a buddy or something. I can't be buddies with him like that. I want the whole relationship."<P>Please, please, please, if you do want to have a marriage to this guy, you need to fully understand Plan A and then DO IT! From what I have read here and on your other posts, you have not really been in Plan A. If you execute Plan B now, he will not see you or your relationship as one that is safe and desireable enough to want to return in Plan B even if he and OW split. You have an opportunity now to do it - he wants to hang out and be buddies. Not sure if you read Jim's Plan A post from December which he gave a link to but I will cut and paste below. It may help give you more insight into the "why's and the how's". If after reading it you may change your mind, you may not.<P>Cheers,<BR>Lisa<P><BR>Jim's REALLY, REALLY GREAT PLAN A - 101 POST:<P>I've decided to write about some of the basics of Plan A...<BR> I originally created a post on Plan B… and after having a few sessions<BR> with Steve Harley… he convinced me to stay with Plan A… and<BR> outlined for me some vital elements that were missing from my<BR> interpretation of Plan A. This is what I wish to share with anyone who<BR> has an interest. Comments here include my discussions with Steve<BR> Harley and may, because of the particulars of my situation, not be<BR> appropriate for everyone's situation. Again, this is my take on Plan A.<P> I welcome as many comments on other points of view... I am not the<BR> expert... you've got to go the Harley's for that!<P> First a few quotes from the book... <P> quote:<P> (#3.) The (betrayed) spouse needs to know that he/she had<BR> done his/her best to save their marriage. (page 76 of<BR> "Surviving An Affair"(SAA))<P><BR> ...and... <P> quote:<P> (#4.) If the (betrayed) spouse follows the plans (A & B),<BR> and they(the plans) fail, the (betrayed) spouse would no<BR> longer have any feelings of love for the wayward spouse.<BR> (page 76 of SAA)<P><BR> To this end... one needs to note a few important aspects of Plan A...<P><BR> A.Both Plan A and Plan B are a cohesive collection of steps that<BR> lead one down a very narrow path of marital recovery… They<BR> must work together if Plan A does not work by itself.<P> B.You start Plan B only after some time in Plan A... a normal<BR> amount of time in Plan A could/should be about 6 months... but<BR> can be as little almost nothing to much more than 6 months.<P> C.Plan B can only be as effective as Plan A was in setting up a<BR> foundation for the establishing a "safe" environment for the<BR> wayward spouse to return!<P> D.That environment created in Plan A must also be<BR> "non-threatening", yet "changing" where the wayward can clearly<BR> see that there are improvements made in the betrayed's ability<BR> to meet the wayward's emotional needs.<P> E.Continuing in Plan A is recommended until the wayward<BR> ultimately show signs of complete rejection of accepting there<BR> have been improvements by the betrayed… and/or the betrayed's<BR> feelings turn to one of overt anger… and resentment!<P> F.Plan B should be put off as long as possible and builds off the<BR> benefits derived from Plan A!<P> G.Damaging a good track record of Plan A can be done in as little<BR> as one day of Love Busting and what the betrayed remembers is<BR> the most recent actions before Plan B!<P> H.Plan B has to have a seamless transition from Plan A, because<BR> once the betrayed is in Plan B there is no more laying down a<BR> foundation!<P> I.The main element of Plan A is to have the waiting spouse avoid<BR> angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, selfish demands,<BR> annoying behavior and dishonesty at all costs! These are the five<BR> most common forms of Love Busters! <P> J.By avoiding all possible Love Busters there are no withdrawals<BR> from the Love Bank of the wayward spouse. Any withdrawals<BR> weaken the case for a "safe" environment for the wayward to<BR> return to.<P> K.In general… anything that would make the wayward unhappy can<BR> be deemed as a Love Buster!. One time Love Busters are bad<BR> enough… but repetitive occurrences are disastrous.<P> L.The wayward defines the Love Buster… not the waiting spouse.<P> M.There is an exception that Steve Harley recognizes (as far as a<BR> "valid" Love Buster… and that would be, actions needed to<BR> protect the waiting spouse and/or children especially from<BR> physical harm. These actions, although they may be perceived as<BR> Love Busters by the wayward… can not be tolerated!<P> N.Additionally "active divorce proceedings" require that only facts<BR> (as objectively as possible) be presented to the courts… with<BR> honest truthfulness being very important. This, Steve Harley<BR> regards as a "gray" area of Love Busting.<P> O.The waiting spouse must keep the focus that they are still<BR> married. That they still have their spouse!<P> P.Deposits into the Love Bank of the wayward should still be<BR> attempted…even if the waiting spouse doesn't know the actual<BR> needs of the wayward… At a minimum "trial and error" in<BR> determining the important emotional needs can be used.<P> Q.The waiting spouse must reassess their concept of "level of<BR> fairness"… and be willing to be the catalyst of all actions needed<BR> to improve the chance of recovery. This is sometimes referred to<BR> as the "doormat" issue… Having to do it all with no contribution<BR> from the wayward… sometimes even to the detriment of the<BR> waiting's self-respect/self-esteem…. Steve asks the rhetorical<BR> question… "Would you be a doormat for 3 months if you'd get<BR> $1,000,000 at the end?"<P> R.Avoid those you would suck you into believing your<BR> self-esteem/respect will suffer. You will have the rest of your life<BR> to rebuild it… if it does suffer. In most cases… doing the more<BR> noble action is a builder of self-respect/esteem.<P> S."You have no rights when your married"… if you believe in divorce<BR> as not being an option! The taker cannot take over in Plan A!<BR> Steve Harley says… at divorce time… if during Plan A you keep<BR> your self-respect, and self-esteem as the most important<BR> issues… that you "stood up for yourself"… the judge will say<BR> "good for you… now you're single!"<P> T.Focus must be on building back that passion and realizing that<BR> that romantic love is VERY conditional as was the process of<BR> falling in love.<P> U.For those who pray… should pray for "clarity" of the wayward's<BR> mind… and your own "patience and focus".<P> If you accept Plan A... seek also the support and fellowship of the<BR> people on the Forum... you'll need it! <P> I have a post already on Plan B… see Plan B - 101. My experiences of<BR> Plan A and Plan B, and other's here at the forum, are meant to<BR> enlighten… not be treated as a replacement for formal counseling.<P> Jim<BR> ---------------------------------<BR> Where two or more are gathered...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by LisaM (edited February 18, 2000).]

I understand all this, its just that Plan A is giving me an inordinate amount of stress and anxiety, especially since he's still involved with OW. I have some decisions (very important ones) to make. The topics you listed by Jim are exactly how I'm feeling. Like a doormat. I hate feeling this way!<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

I understand the stress of the old doormat feeling. Please ask yourself if you would be happier going through the divorce process. Would this be easier to live with for the rest of your life? Entirely up to you.<P>Only you know that you can move on and move forward and eliminate the anxiety without having tried some of the tested and true opportunities to heal your marriage. If you have decided it is over before really trying to fight for it, you may end up spending a lot of time resenting your decision. Only you know this.<P>Cheers,<BR>Lisa