Hi friends on the forum,<P>Thank you all for your concern this week. It helps me a lot to get through the pain of my situation and focus on the matters at hand today.<P>This is also a quick request for help. I am making a list of anything that will help me in my case against H. What I mean is that I am asking for child support, maintenence, health insurance, day care help, him pay lawyer fees, but is there anything, that any of you forgot about that would be helpful for me to know?? Little things that I can do to find proof, or any things you forgot to ask for. <P>Or any suggestions on visitation, how much is TOO much considering the OW will have a great influence over my kids, yes I understand in the future, she could be permanent, BUT all indications are not that 2 months into this, so just in case, I would like to do what I can to limit. Such as I am asking for no overnights. Also, phone calls. How many phone calls a day come in from your betrayer for your kids. I get 3 , one before the bus comes, one after bus comes home, one before bed. I feel this is too much control in our life, He left, why should he get the day to day pleasures, and try and keep so much contact. I feel like it is way too much . Also, I am expected to remind kids to call him, lately if I don't, they don't even think of him. I am expected to get off the other line when he calls in.<P>It is like a control battle and I am the pawn. I don't want to "hurt" my kids relationship with dad, but at the risk of sounding selfish, he is always telling me, can't you get them to this, or tell them this. NO< I lied a lot for him already, I feel this is his responsibility.<P>Be gentle on the phone call issue, and share any insight on what works for you, and what you forgot that you wish you knew the first time around with the lawyers. THanks a lot I appreciate it!

About the phone calls...<P>Three calls a day is barely enough, as far as I'm concerned... The kids need their dad, regardless of what he did to the marriage. He has a responsability to them that transcends any other relationship in his life, including your marriage... (sorry) The more he talks to them, the better, as long as he is not telling them bad stuff. Yes you do HAVE a responsibility to remind them to call him, and you also have responsibility to keep your pain hidden from them. And you shouldn't be listening to their calls unless there is a good reason. (But you don't need to be a messenger for him)<P>I'm sorry if this is not to gentle... I am facing right now, another custody case and ex is trying to limit my contact with my son. It will be one to the points I bring up to the judge. Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS) is a valid argument in a custody case, and worse than that it is HELL for the kids.<P>You may not feel like he deserves them, but that is not the point. Their needs and rights transcend ALL else.<P>Deut

lonelymom,<BR>Be thankful for the three phone calls! I have told my husband numerous times that he can call and see the kids anytime he wants. He sees them about every other weekend (no overnights) and has actually called 1 time to talk to them. I don't think he spends near enough time with them, but he is out of town during the week. If he called during the week, it would be a collect call. But I feel he could see them a lot more than what he does. He only lives 10 minutes from here. can't force him though.<P>As for the other stuff, I can't give any advice. I haven't even seen a lawyer yet. Just hang in there and do your best for your kids.<P>Mitzi

If you had an H who never made any phone calls, or skipped days at a time, you'd realize how precious his calls are for your children. I don't think you have to schedule your life around the calls, but if he's calling at good times, let him. And you don't have to talk to him, let the kids answer the phone.

Thank you for the help. I guess I am being a bit petty and I can see that now. It is hard for me to look past my own pain and do what is right, when I feel like my H seems to get the best of everything at all times. Its just hard to bear. You guys are right, and I will try better. I will talk to him about watching what he says to them. (does mommy have men over the house, do men call for mommy, does mommy have a boyfriend, be bad for mommy, this is what I face). Or he calls them to shove OW down their throat, (wait til you meet OW she is so nice, she is going to do this and this with you, ). To me, this hurts. Or when he and I were fighting he told them (be bad for your mom). This is why I have a problem. The other problem is that when he talks to them, he then asks to talk to me and they hand me the phone .<P>I don't want to talk to him daily, about the kids, I know, I have to learn, all I am asking is can't this go a little slower?? Why do I have to have this OW shoved down my throat non stop? Maybe I will get used to this someday. I can only pray.<P>Keep the advice coming, I value the opinions and also, anyone who has been through the legal end and found after they forgot something, anything, let me know! Thanks to all!!

lonelymom,<BR>I guess I am having trouble understanding why you wouldn't want your H to call the kids so often, because my H has called the kids approximately three times in a year. He did his best to prevent them from calling me to say good night when they were at the OW's. I would be happy to have him visit the children as often as he wanted to, but he "can't" (his words) see them more than he does - now limited to about 72 hours a month. It is obvious that the OW has put limits on how much he is "allowed" to see them. He wants them ready to go when he comes to take them to dinner - I thought at first it might be because he wanted to avoid spending more than a couple of minutes in the house with me - but he is in just as much of a hurry if I am not even home. <P>I agree that you should do everything possible to prevent overnights for as long as possible. Almost all therapists would agree that it is way too soon.

Yes YEs YES, 6 weeks into this, overnights with my H kissing another woman in front of my 3 daughters, is way too much.<P>I have every plan to give him a good visitation schedule , I do. I hope you all do understand, he uses some of the visit to hurt me, he brings OW to my house and she waits in the car, but last visit, the OW son wanted to stay home and OW and H both spanked him and yanked him into the car, no need for it, bad snowstorm, and H hadn't seen other 2 girls so he could have stayed all of 5 minutes to see the other 2 but IT was waiting in the car, she even stares at my house with the evil looks. I know, don't look out the window, but must I be a prisoner in my own house and yard? I asked that she stay out of my driveway, I can tell you this, that OW will NEVER set foot in my house. Thats it.<P>OK just venting, sorry guys, keep them coming

Lonelymom,<BR>ABOVE ALL and this is so hard, PUT YOUR CHILDREN'S NEEDS FIRST. By this I mean, do not intefere in their relationship with their father, but do not facilitate it either. You do not control, manage or anything else in his life at this point and he has chosen this and there is very little you can do.<BR>H should be able to call the kids whenever....but it is not your responsibility to make them call him. You will have your relationship with the children and he will have his. You are no longer his facilitator in terms of fatherhood. He has to do this on his own. I cannot repeat strongly enough try not to "trash him, to the kids. One of my biggest dilemmas was that I got left with the "daily grind" of teenagers with all the issues they deal with in the best of circumstances while he took the fun times with the kids. (and believe me, I heard and felt and lived their anger which they could not tell him so it was misplaced to me over and over again)But since you will act in your children's best interests, you will not manipulate them into not seeing him. It will not work anyway, but will backfire if you do do this.<P>I always felt that the kids should see as much or as little of him as they want (13 and 16 year olds), but what made me a little crazy in the beginning until my lawyer and the courts stepped in, was the total lack of consideration or forward planning by stbx shown to kids and especially myself. So if you and H still talk, without LB, explain that these visitations need to be regularly scheduled..it is important for the kids and for you...routine now is essential to the kids well being. Also make sure he takes all kids together (my stbx will not so I am never off) they need a strong sense of family even if the family unit is the kids with one or the other parent, but the kids must be togehter IMHO.<P>2)Neither you nor your H can afford to buy into using the kids as messengers to find out what is going on at the other home. My stbx did and still does and then I get venemous lawyers letters. which are full of lies, and the kids know this. My tack has been to explain to them that while I do not live a life of secrets or lies, and they know what I do and where I am etc. their father is no longer part of this family life in our home, and if he wishes to know anything about them from an adult, or ask how I am, he MUST call me, which he absolutely refuses to do<P>Phone calls:<BR>YOU HAVE TO STAND BACK ON THIS. The kids will not buy into him trashing you. You are there for them in a way that he no longer. So hold your head up high and get support from ypour friends etc., not the kids. They can put 2+2 together, or will eventually.<BR>If H calls for the kids, let them talk with privacy...they will tell you what they feel comfortable with. Let them call H anytime. You can choose to talk to H or not, but in front of the kids when they hand you the phone and you do not want to talk, let him know politely that this is not a good time and can he call you at another time which you set. He cannot have his cake and eat it too IMO where you are there at his beck and call. This is your life too and as you state, you are expectewd to get off the other line...do not if you do not want to!<P>YES, YOU ARE THE PAWN< but you do not have to be. Do not buy into being the one who has to say "NO" to the kids all the time. And if he changes things, let him explain why etc, to the kids. How old are the kids? IMHO, and others might disagree, this is not LB.<P>There is nothing you can do re OW and her seeing the kids. H has to make her special to the kids to justify his relationship with her in their eyes. No matter what you feel, there really is nothing legally that I know of that will help, so steel yourself to this reality, however much you hate all aspects of this.<P>I can go on and on ...if you want more on my scenario re protecting yourself and your children, emailme at willbok99@hotmail<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>

I would not let the OW make me feel like a prisoner in my own home!! When I was in this same situation, She was always in the car too. I finally got up the nerve to start walking my girls out to the car and I made sure I was right there when they came home too. As hard as it was, I made sure that my girls and my H always saw me with a smile on my face. She also had a child and I always made it a point to say something nice to her. ( it wasn't her fault) I never EVER acknowledged that the OW was even in the car. I can tell you, it drove her batty. She actually tried to tell my H to tell me to stay in my house!! She began to get even more open with her hostility toward me and my H began to see a different side to her. It really drove a wedge between them. She couldn't stand the niceness between me and my H. Their "relationship" lasted about 3 months.<P>I would let my presence be known. I would call him to talk about the kids. If there are overnights, I would make sure I'd call to say goodnight. If for some reason you have to talk to her on the phone, always use your sweetest voice when you leave messages.<BR>I always seemed to find some way to bring out the nastiness in her.<P>Make sure you include him paying for college (if they decide to go) and make sure that child support continues during extended visits. If it is not worded correctly, he could try to get out of paying you for visits during the summer, etc.<P>Make sure that health coverage includes dental,(braces, etc.) <P>Make sure that everything is spelled out exactly. It will be extremely difficult to go back later and change anything.<P>As for visitation, unless you can prove just cause why it shouldn't happen... visitation is usually standard and set by the judge. I'm sorry, but these days, an OW isn't accepted as a valid reason. The sole purpose is to maintain the relationship with the parent. <P>Always hope for the best....and carry yourself with dignity and grace.<P>Lynn

Lynn,<P>Thank you for the advice! I don't know if I can do that, walk them to the car, but then again, that is a good idea. Did you have a hard time getting used to it? Did your kids go overnight? You said the affair lasted 3 months, are you together now or are the kids confused about OW??? <P>You brought up some good points, and see I forgot college, and braces. Thank you! <P>Thanks to all Dana<BR>

Dana,<P>Willbok and Linda gave you good advice.<BR>My x still does not let me know when she plans to take the kids until the day before or if I aske her. She gives me her work schedule but then changes it.<P>Don't use the kids as a messanger and tell your h the same. Don't use them to check on h either as it will drive you nuts and it puts them in the middle.<P>When it comes to your h and how he deals with the kids, you have to set boundries, this may or may not be a love buster, but when it comes to the kids, i wouldn't worry about it. I confronted my x(prior to her being my x) at her work when I found out she was lying to the kids and it caused my son to cry.<P>Gently explain to your h about your concerns and then let it go. You are not responsible for his actions. The more you try to prevent him from doing something, the more he will try and will do it underhandedly.<P>Other divorce issuses, who claims kids on taxes, who claims the house, for 99 and 00.<BR>Above all don't use his lawyer because he is already working for your h and you will get screwed. Also look carefully as to what part of the pension you chose if he has a mix.<P>My x's lawyer didn't know what he was doing and made two mistakes. First he chose the pension from my current employer for who I worked for for a year. I had about $5000 in it. I told her about that one. Then he picked a prt of my old pension, the part that is anchored for 5 yrs after the end of my employment. She will have to wait another 4 yrs before she can touch it. The funny part is that it is dying on the vine. It lost over $15000 last year. She will be lucky if there is any money left in it in 4 yrs.<P>Good luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

Hi All,<P>I have two thoughts on this thread. I don't really belong here, I've never been married much less faced a divorce or the fallout of an affair. I read here because it's the busiest part of the forum. So for what my two cents are worth, here goes: I can offer perspective from the kids' end, having been there so recently (I'm 21). <P>My parents marriage was miserable. No affairs - as far as I know - but nonstop fighting, screaming, and bickering. The three of us kids were overjoyed when they divorced (we were 6, 12, and 15 at the time - I was the 12 year old). <P>Even after their divorce was final the fighting continued. It was next to impossible to have both in the same room at the same time, so we kids had a problem: who to bring to concerts, parent's day at school, Little League games, etc.? Since the three of us lived with our mother, she was the primary parental figure in our lives, and she alone came to all the events. For the next five years I didn't see my dad much.<P>After that, I didn't see my dad at all. He died when I was 17. I didn't know it then, but I'm realizing it now - and the realization will certainly grow stronger as I age - that one of the great regrets of my life will have been not knowing my dad. <P>Neither parent alone - mine, or you and your ex - is to blame for the failure of the marriage. It takes two to marry, it takes two to be happy; it takes two to fight and two to divorce. Ideally, kids wouldn't have to choose between their parents, and parents wouldn't force this choice. Despite your pain, don't make your kids feel guilty for still loving their other parent.<P>One parent telling the kids "be bad to Mommy" or grilling them on the presence or absence of other men is JUST PLAIN WRONG. Report it to the court at once. Do not ever do this to your children.<P>As for OP, their presence is often confusing to kids, whose loyalties are torn. The OP, unless they've played a significant caretaking role, has no right to be involved in the children's lives. Many kids would prefer the OP be excluded as much as reasonably possible but are afraid to say so.<P>Hope this helps.

lonelymom-<P>Yes, it was extremely difficult at first. The first time I walked the kids out, I stayed on the porch. The OW started squirming in her seat and I could tell I was bothering her. That was just too sweet!! It made it a lot easier for me to continue to "show" myself...but it was extremely hard not to say anything to her. I think I have permanent scars on my tongue. He He!!<P>Yes,there were overnights. Actually, weekends. The first one was the hardest. I did not know what to do with myself. I spent the whole weekend in tears picturing what a happy little family they must make. After that, I had to find things to do to keep busy. I don't think my house was ever so clean. My girls were 18 mo. and 5 yr.old. They cried when they left and would come running to me as soon as they came home. It would tear me up.<P>Prepare yourself to be attacked for what appears to be foolish things. When my H first started to take the girls, I would send bottles, toys, clothes with them. Not everything would come home. This happened more than once. So, I thought I would help out by making a list of everything I sent with them. I got a letter back (her handwriting) that was rather insulting, complaining that the clothes I sent were inappropriate for the places they went, etc.<BR>I hit the roof. I called and he wasn't there, so I let her have it. I told her to stay out of it and if my H had something to say, then he could say it, but she had better just leave it alone. I know all about the plan A thing and all, but sometimes you just got to let it out. Turns out I scared her pretty good. One time I walked to the car with my H to get my check, she saw me coming and frantically rolled up the window. My H and I just busted up laughing.<P>yes, we are back together. My girls did not really seemed too affected by the OW.<P>It has not been easy. H had another fling.(with my Sister) That was just a PA, no emotions involved. Somehow that one was easier to handle. We have also recently separated again. No OW involved. My H was working too many hours and we grew apart. That is when I found this site. We have since reconciled and things are better than ever. <P>I don't really know why I dumped all of this on you. I guess I just want you to know that it can get better.<P>Take care,<BR>Lynn

Lynn,<P>No bother, thank you for sharing it with me. Actually, I never thought of this, and I AM going to do it now! I am very glad too. Because you have a good point and this is MY house! Did she continue to come after you kept going out? Did your H ever mention anything about them fighting over it? It must be hard to see OW in YOUR car with YOUR H, I assume, it kills me. Yes yours were younger, the five year old one though, thats tough. <P>Well,to the others as well, about the taxes and all, thank you, again, something I forgot. This is all so difficult its just unbearable.<P>Watch for my new posting, you will ALL be surprised!<BR>

Check into his retirement plan and see if you are elgible for any of that--my ex was military and I got a generous portion.<P>As for the minor children--I had put in my divorce decree that daughter could not stay with ex if he had somone of opposite sex staying there at same time, if they were not married, with the exception of female relatives. I had no trouble getting that, and my daughter has not been the least bit upset at not staying at fathers home.<P>As for phone contact--when were we first separated and even into the divorce, it was very difficult for me to even hear my ex's voice. I had call selector by our local phone company, which supplies a different ring, so the kids would know it was their dad and they would answer the phone. I think it is very important for the children to have whatever contact they want with their father,and I always encourage it. I don't have a choice about the OW, but it is best to not make a big deal out of her, because it will put the kids in the middle. Take the high road and<BR>rise above it. You are the jewel he has lost, he just doesn't realize it yet!

I don't know if this would help or not but as I suggested before you might seek the help of family counselling. Most school's provide some means of counselling, especially when dealing with a divorce situation. You can have this work for you in not only dealing with the other woman but having your children deal with her as well. The main thing it this, when my daughter of my first marriage went to counselling it was decided by the court to follow the guidelines set up by the counsellor to see her. He was a real creep and the counsellor knew this but also knew he had some rights. He ruined everything by bringing another woman into the picture without talking to the counsellor and making sure that this was ok. Now he has NO rights to visitation. The thing is this,,,,,if the counsellor doesn't feel that you and your children can handle the OW then the recommendation would be visitation without the OW's envolvement. I suggested this to you before because I knew that being a good Mom was important to you and this would help in this matter. Do see if the school offers any programs of this nature.....God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

Lonelymom--I forgot a couple of thingsthat youmight want to consider. First is the need for life insurance policies. My ex had to take out 2 policies on himself ,one for me and the second one for his daughter. It is important that you are the designated owner of both policies and he pay the premiums. That way , he cannot cancel the policies and you will be notified if any payments are not made. On the policy for my daughter, I had a trust fund set up as beneficiary,to prevent any mismanagement of the fuds if my ex died while she was still a minor.<P>Do your children have a savings acct at a local bank? Do you or any of your relatives belong to a credit union? I had my daughter's acct moved to my credit union,. The purpose of that was my ex was not a member andin the event of my death and assuming he would then become her primary custodian, he would not be able to touch any of her money because he was not a credit union member. <P>You are going to need a new will drawn up. Not a pleasant thing to think about but very necessary. There will need to be custodail parents named as a precaution, in case you and your ex are both deceased while your children are still minors..I also had an insurance policy on myself with my daughter listed as beneficiary[ or rather her trust was listed as beneficiary} to provide for her college, and the terms of that were explicit. That way I knew if something happened to me she had money for college and husband could not have access to any of that money because it was set up in the trust. I know this sounds harsh but in divorce it all comes daown to money in the end. I didn't want to believe that, but I found out in my case it's true.<P>I don't want you to get the opinion that I have a lot of money and have all these trust funds worth mega bucks--I work 4 days a week as a nurse in a clinic and my ex is retired military enlisted. I spent a lot of time in the library doing research on trying to get the best divorce I could and to do the best I could to make sure my minor child was provided for. I want to be as helpful as I can to anyone going through a divorce. I just hope in the end, everything works out and the divorce papers can be burned. My prayers are with you.

Lonelymom ~ Having been in your shoes, I would offer these words of advice - don't treat the OW like crap. When I divorced my husband because I suspected him of an affair (it was never confirmed but less than 6 months after our divorce, he was married to her) I treated her horribly. She came to my house with him returning some of my furniture and I said to him, "tell her to stop right there. That tramp is NOT coming in my home." She was right next to him so I could have spoken to her directly but it was my way of being a B*tch. But as time went on, I realized that this woman was going to be spending time with my children and she just may want to pay me back for my nasty (JUSTIFIED) attitude by taking it out on my kids. If she was going to end up being their step-monster, I wanted her to love them and be sweet to them as much as I despised her for her part in ruining my marriage. <P>I am not telling you to be her friend but I would just ask that you consider at least not being as nasty to her as I was to my xH's OW for your children's sake.<P>You may not agree with me now because I am sure you are hurting but you may just remember this as time passes especially if she does end up staying in his life.<P>Take care and God Bless.

lonelymom,<BR> My divorced sister had to go through the same thing-her ex bringing the OW around.But my sister is a strong woman,and was at least cordial to her.Being nasty is just going to make you look like a loser to your kids.Show your kids that you can be better than her.That's not to say,though,that when she comes over,you couldn't be sitting on the front porch,sharpening a large butcher knife on a razor strap! As for the divorce settlement,I believe she has something in there about him helping to pay for their college costs.Something to think about.Take care. --Murph