Nellie,<P>I skimmed a book in the library the other day about narcisstic rage. I remembered you had posted about this in the past. This book described it as an "allergy" towards the wife. It also said that the rage is really internal feelings in the betrayer and he projects them toward his innocent spouse. It all stems from some insecurity in his childhood. I just wondered if you had done any more research on the subject. It sounded like it described your H perfectly.<P>AD

AD,<P>I haven't been able to locate much more information on narcissistic rage, though I have tried. What was the name of the book you found in the library? I think the name of the book in which I saw it discussed was "Sudden Endings" - it dealt specifically with cases where men have suddenly left their wives of many years.

Nellie,<P>That was the same book I saw. It did say that many men were remorseful later, that the rage was spent, but the author's H had been that way for 4 years, no end in sight. He didn't even claim to be happy with the OW, he was just bent on making his wife suffer in every way possible. It was supposed to have its roots in childhood, maybe a neglectful father, or parents who expected too much. I just thought the description matched your H. The rage is really at themselves, but they project it toward their wives. <P>Ad

AD,<P>Frank Pittman also believes that problems in the relationship between fathers and sons are at the root of men's infidelity. He goes into great detail about this theory in his book, "Man Enough". <P>My H's father was distant and apparently uninvolved. My H believes that he has always favored his brother, and from what I have seen, I agree. I know he was hurt when his father essentialy told him he was stupid for having given up his career to go farm. <BR>

I have to do a literature search for a research class I am taking. My question happens to be "What is the role of narcissism in male extra-marital affairs?" I'll see what I come up with and report back in a few weeks. I know my husband is narcissistic. His father too was very cold and distant. He took my husband to the movies through the years but that was about the only thing. He didn't even go to his son's football games.<BR>There is a book called "Narcissism and Intimacy: Love and Marriage in an age of confusion," by Marion F. Solomon. I have not read it all and it has been a while but I know she covers rage in it. Hope you find the information

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>AD,<P>I haven't been able to locate much more information on narcissistic rage, though I have tried. What was the name of the book you found in the library? I think the name of the book in which I saw it discussed was "Sudden Endings" - it dealt specifically with cases where men have suddenly left their wives of many years.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have found two excellent sites. They will give you alot of information. It may also make you lose some hope. Don't. I know my h is narcissic, his dad was awful, grandad also. But H & I stared Dr. Harley's basic concepts and telephone counsoling. H is much, much better. But I am glad I also read about Narcissim. Terrible stuff. But with Dr. H's guidence, there is much hope. We are doing better than ever. H never learned how to love because of his dad. h repeated affair pattern. (3x's) h & I are now focusing on emotional needs inventory. H is learning and it is much better than focusing on the past. You H can do it also. Here are the web sites and book names. Read them, they are good. But remember Dr. H's approach teaches new skills that are easy to do. Just practice. Do not be too distraught about the narcissim. It will explain why he acts so horribly. DO NO TAKE THAT STUFF PERSONALLY. He would do it with ANY WOMEN. It is not you. Work on your skills. I can not believe how much better my h is. He even suggested we take a week vacation just he & I because Dr. H recommended. It 12 years we have never done so, because his carrer is SO important. Everything had to focus on HIM. He now is doing life much more balanced. My family has not accepted him back because of the last 2 returns from OW were not sucessful. It will take a while, but I am much happier. That is the important thing.<P>Malignant Self Love - Narcissism re-Visited by Shmuel Vaknin, Ph.D. He is a narcissic person who wrote this book. He flat out tells you how it is. <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html" TARGET=_blank>www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html</A> <P>The doctor below from Mt. Sinai in New York has much info also. He is going back and working with information discovered and researched over 50 years ago by a Karen somebody. It makes some sense. Amazing 50 years has not seemed to help these people. Side tracked by the 60's & 70's I guess.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.homestead.com/narcissim/personality.html" TARGET=_blank>www.homestead.com/narcissim/personality.html</A> <P>A.M. Benis, ScD., M.D.<BR>Mt. Sinai Medical Center<BR>Box 1028 <BR>New York, New York 10029<P>e-mail benis2000@earthlink.net<P>I hope this helps you. But don't lose hope. Between having a understanding of Narcissim, and keeping focus on Dr. H, you will be much happier with yourself, even if your h does not come around right away. I did NOT tell my h I thought (think) his is narcissic. Do not discuss this part with your husband. He will not react well at all. If he goes to individual counsoling he needs to focus on this childhood abandament issues. Do not discuss other items. It is a waste of time.<P>I will put my e-mail address in so you may write me. I had not put it in before. <BR>vfrayser@worldnet.att.net<BR>------------------<BR>Victoria<p>[This message has been edited by Victoria in Texas (edited February 21, 2000).]

hw,<P>I would be interested to see what you find out. I will try to find the book you mentioned.<P>Victoria,<P>Thanks for the links - the first one had a lot of interesting info - some of which did not sound at all like my "pre-affair" H. I couldn't get the second link to work. <P>I doubt if my H will ever go to individual counseling. He was advised to by our first counselor, but he said that he didn't feel the need to then.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>hw,<P>I would be interested to see what you find out. I will try to find the book you mentioned.<P>Victoria,<P>Thanks for the links - the first one had a lot of interesting info - some of which did not sound at all like my "pre-affair" H. I couldn't get the second link to work. <P>I doubt if my H will ever go to individual counseling. He was advised to by our first counselor, but he said that he didn't feel the need to then.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My H would start, then stop after 2 or 3 visits. When I found out about 3rd affair, I told him either counseling or pack his bags. He started, but I could see it would be the same as it was. Then he agreed to try Dr. Harley's telephone counseling. For once he is not only particpating fully with Dr. H's program, but he is also going to individual counseling. Of course, he still thinks I am the one who needs individual counseling the most. It is hard to look back if your father treated you so badly at the exact time you are beginning to develope into a man. I think the rage toward women is their anger at their mother for not protecting them from abandment. My H thinks his mother is great. But I think he treats her with some deep down hostility. He always sees her and stays with her when he goes to her town, but he just calls very shortly before coming into town, and tells her when to pick him up at the airport. He does not consider her schedule, plans, etc. This is the type of behavior you have to deal with, and try very hard to not let it upset you. I have to remind myself that he does these things because he has a problem, and it is not me. Your self esteem will improve if you can keep this prespective. Hang in there. <P>------------------<BR>Victoria