Sorry, this may be long. But esp. those of you who've done couples counseling, wld appreciate comments.<BR>My H and I had our first phone session with Steve Harley today. But, I'm not sure how well my H is taking this. Steve talked to both of us individually and together. When I talked to him, he told me that he let David know his EA is, basically, an addiction. He also talked to him about the difference between true love and addiction, etc.<BR>Gave us some "homework" but asked that we go over it with him before sharing it with each other. (Next is an individual appt for each, and then a joint appt.) <BR>We get off the phone, and David is very defensive, coldly angry, says it was nothing but pyschobabble and BS (this from the man who has a "pyschic connection" with his EA "love"). Thinks its all useless, and why would he ask us to do all this and then not share it with each other. Question--is this defensiveness typical? Does it last?<P>I tell him to pls give it time, I do not believe it is useless--nothing is going to work in one session. Tell him I think the purpose of not sharing the homework until we go over it with Steve is probably bcs not all couples are able to say some of this w/o being hurtful, and Steve's job is partly to help with that. <P>But, then I start crying. He wants to know why. I tell him he got defensive when we talked to the first counselor (who we both decided was nice, but had no plan--other than "just talk" to fix anything). Now he's getting defensive again; it makes me feel like he doesn't want anything to get better. He says he's sorry I'm upset, hope I feel better, and leaves for work. Question--was my response a LB?<P>I get to work, very agitated. Send him a nice egreeting card with a poem abt how much he means to me. Add a note saying I love him and do believe that things will get better, thanks for trying so hard (sounds sarcastic, but not...we've been talking abt how hard it is for him to try to stay away from her and I always credit him for that effort).<P>He sends me back a nice note, apologising for being defensive, says he is trying to be open and honest. Says maybe we can talk more tonight. Question--I know he thinks this bit about it being like an addiction is "pyschobabble...do I tell him it's very similar to what the first counselor said to me after meeting with him and then talking with me? What do I tell him? Any suggestions...<P>I hope he doesnt want to talk abt how he shld just go ahead and move out...I keep fearing that, bcs I don't think he's ever made a real decision to stay. I think he thinks he has, but that his decision is really "I'll try for a while, and if it doesn't get better I can move out, call OW and see if she'd like to date me".<P>Feel like I'm lost in an uncharted ocean...<BR>Kathi<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited February 23, 2000).]

Off the top of my head this just came to me after reading your post--why not send your husband another note saying you've both done enough "counseling" today and you would like nothing better than the two of you having a nice quiet dinner and then just watching a movie on tv together. Sounds like he is feeling a lot of pressure.

Kathy, <P>You might want to ask Steve about working to get an agreement out of your husband to close off a couple of exits. (This is coming out of a Harville Hendrix book so not sure if he's familiar or agrees with it.) One of the first things Hendrix does with couples is get them both to agree to a process. They agree to (I think it's six) counseling sessions before any decisions are made to move out. It puts one partner at ease, while still allowing the other a partial exit until he's ready to permanently close it. <P>As for the "Psychobabble" some people get real defensive about someone messing with their head. It's a perception that therapists are "shrinks" and are somehow going to either confirm they are crazy or brainwash them somehow. (I never understood it. I see going to a therapist as no more threatening than going to the doctor to get a more powerful cold medicine to get over a cold.) Don't panic...my husband did the same thing and he has a psych background.

...the funny thing is that my H and I both have our bachelors in Pysch (tho neither pursued it beyond that, and ended up in different careers). I think he just finds it hard that he can't get anyone to agree with him--I think he sees it not as a "choice" or an "addiction" but as a soulmate-bond.

Kathi:<P>My wife and I started counseling with Steve just after I discovered her affair. My wife did so reluctantly, and had a very similar reaction to the counseling. We did the homework (Lovebusters, emotional needs questionnaires), but we never got to a "planning" stage because my wife quit the counseling. She never quit the affair (at that time). <P>The response your husband is having is typical of someone who is having (or recently ended) an affair. When Steve started counseling my wife, I believe he thought that his time with her would be short (that she'd quit), and so her sessions concentrated on putting a big spin on what she was doing, how an affair was an addiction, and how I (and she) could change to have a great marriage). It pissed her off, and it was also exhausting for her (after one particular session she went to bed---at 5 pm---and didn't get up until 8 the next morning.<P>Although she quit counseling, it did have positive effects. The first was that I gathered the information from the questionnaires to help me change (eliminating lovebusters was my primary task). The second was that Steve planted the "seed" for change; when the affair was finally falling apart (9 months later), my wife remembered Steve's words as being very prophetic. Including the ones about us restoring our marriage.<P>If the questionnaires are what you're working on, then Steve will give you the guidelines to share them. The other homework that I used to do was the "Love Bank Index" sheet---that should never be shown to your spouse. That's a tool that Steve uses to gauge where you are in terms of the marriage. (Of course, this is me speaking for Steve---ask him for the details).<P>Stick with it---no matter what your husband does, your job in this doesn't change. Learn the behaviors to eliminate lovebusters and meet your husband's emotional needs.

K:<BR>I'm glad to see your response. I was a bit taken aback by David's defensiveness and anger. I should not have been, but I was. I am afraid he will want to quit counseling. Good to see your perspective of seeds being planted...helps me with that fear. And, he truly is trying to be open and work on this mess, so maybe he will stick it out. I sympathise with him, upon reflection, if I was in his place, I might have reacted similarly. Also, Steve started off by using the word "affair". We've talked before about this being an emotional affair, but I think David thinks of an affair as physical and reacted badly partly because of the term. This is not to say he doesn't realize the impact of an EA (we've even talked about the fact that both of us could deal more easily with a physical-only betrayal than an emotional-only betrayal), but it probably hurt to hear anyway. <P>As for homework, we'd already done the LB and EN q'aires, back over a month ago, when he was still not admitting that there was an EA going on. (Actually, right after you frst suggested it!) Incidently, he had 2 of his top 5 needs not met; I had 5 of 5...This made me feel like I should've had the affair (just kidding!).<P>The homework is taking those q'aires further and working on specifics of how we'd like those needs met. I can see why Steve might like to review them before they are given to the spouse. I can easily see some couples putting things in a very negative context...<BR> <BR>And yes, Steve did explain the "Love Bank Index" just like you said.<P>Thanks for replying...it helped!<BR>Kathi

Kathi,<P>I have a little bit of experience with counseling (though not to a great extent), and, yes, this reaction is very typical after the first session. Most effective counselors are very good at giving people a close look at themselves and, for most of us, it may not be a very pretty picture. Instead of trying to change the reaction, we get angry at the person who held up the mirror. I assure you that this is much better than a counselor who merely tells someone that they are ok regardless. <P>Anyway, your husband's apology indicates that he is willing to continue. An emotional affair can sometimes be more hard to give up than a physical one, because it is pure fantasy. Keep acknowledging his efforts, and you should start seeing changes in him. <P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You.<BR>John

Kathi:<P>If David didn't have a "real" affair, then I'm sure that this is part of the shock.<P>The process that Steve uses is fairly simple. In general, you work on lovebusters first, and once those are under control, you start on emotional needs.<P>You've done the questionnaires. That's step 1.<P>Sharing them with each other is step 2. Steve likes to guide this step---it's important that you share the information with each other without lovebusters. It's extremely important that you realize that this is how your spouse feels---you don't have to agree with it, but you do have to "act" on it (to be successful).<P>Step 3 is where you appear to be at. You know each other's needs (or lovebusters). You now design a plan to specifically meet these needs. You would work on meeting your husband's need, he would work on meeting yours. You'll then "reconvene" and discuss these with each other, using the POJA and your negotiation skills to come up with a verifiable plan that you both promise to follow (mutually enthusiastic agreement...).<P>Step 4 is executing the plan. You want verifiable steps in the plan so that you can judge how you're doing. You then evaluate and change the plan as necessary. As you learn to do this for each other's benefit---you're making big deposits in each other's love banks. Romantic love is just around the corner! <P>My wife and I tried counseling again with Steve about 9 months ago (about a year post-affair, and about 6 months post-baby). It was a mixed bag: my wife believes in the MB principles, but she hated to do the paperwork and would procrastinate on the planning. We redid the questionnaires, and shared them with each other. That went OK. My wife seemed to be doing pretty well in her discussions with Steve---during the affair, she thought of him as the devil incarnate.<P>But once planning came around (the step you're at), she just wouldn't get around to it. It's at that point that she just said that she didn't like this method of counseling. Of course I didn't say this, but it seemed to be that she was fine "talking", she just didn't want to "do" the work. So, we've been working on this at our own pace, using a more "free-form" approach that fits in with my wife's comfort level. It's working, but it is slower and more frustrating (and less effective) then if she would just "shut up and try Steve's way for 6 months...".<P>Of course, I would never say that to her. Lovebuster!!! But the power of these techniques are pretty substantial---I've been very successful in working on it from a "one-sided" approach. It's much easier if you're both on the same team, and can agree to try the approach together.<P>Good luck. Say "hi" to Steve for me...

Kathi, you have the experts with you today. <BR> <P>I like the idea about the movie tonight. All of this will take time! But, he is trying. That is something to put in your lovebank, isn't it?<P>God Bless.<BR>TNT

When my then w tried counseling, she was more angry at me after she came out the first time. The same thing happened when we went to another. The third one she told the counselor she no longer wanted to drag things out of me. I guess I just was supposed to change overnight.<P>We went a total of 7 times to 3 different counselors. I went by myself for 6 months. She went to mine once by herself, but said the counselor was on my side. She then went to the last counselor we had gone to by herself for 4-5 visits. She stopped going to him when we divorced because he wasn't on her medical plan.<P>So I think the defensiveness Is normal. They are trying to block out the guilt.

Kathi,<P>As RWD said, I think the defensiveness is normal. Try to think of it this way(try being the keyword), at least he went through with the session. I'm sure Dr. Harley said a lot of things that he will think about, even if he is upset. A lot of his fustration is from his guilt. Just try to get him to continue the counselling. Don't know much what else to say, but I'm praying that he sees what he's doing to your marriage and WAKE UP before losing you!!!<P>Stay Strong, you're doing greaat!<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Kathi, You mentioned your fears a few times in your posts here:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hope he doesnt want to talk abt how he shld just go ahead and move out...I keep fearing that, bcs I don't think he's ever made a real decision to stay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm glad to see your response. I was a bit taken aback by David's defensiveness and anger. I should not have been, but I was. I am afraid he will want to quit counseling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I too have had many fears, and through my therapy, I have learned that my fears stem from a fear of abandonment. In the past, I would get this feeling in the pit of my stomach and then react (out of fear). I have learned that it is ok to be alone and if even if my marriage does not survive, I will.<P>When I get that feeling in my stomach (fear), I start an internal dialog that basically goes: <BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE> <BR><LI> "What are you afraid of?"<BR><LI> "I am afraid of losing her."<BR><LI> "Will you survive if you do lose her?"<BR><LI> "Yes."<BR><LI> "Is it ok to be alone?"<BR><LI> "Yes."<BR><LI> "Do you love her any less now that you are not afraid of being alone?"<BR><LI> "No, I feel more love now than I did just a minute ago, and I feel better about myself too."<BR><LI> "Good for you!"<BR></UL> <P>I really discovered this yesterday after a therapy session and it fits right in with everything else that I have been taught. <P>You have been very supportive of me when I have posted and I sincerely appreciate it. I hope that this will in some small way help you.<P>

Kathy, <BR> Our situations are so similar. The more I find out about you the more I realize it. Well all 4 of us have psych backgrounds. I guess studying the subject doesn't make you more open to therapy. (More informed about the theories and techniques, but I guess in both our cases that knowledge can be used to intelligently argue against therapy. Probably a Freud's theories can't be proven type of mentality. We want objective data proving that the theory is the truth. )<P>Don't panic if he quits therapy. As long as he's still willing to stay with you, and work on things you should be ok. It will take longer. My husband, a die hard reader of advice columns, self-help info etc... pre-affair is just beginning to pick some of them back up now, nine months after discovery. It was if they suddenly became some evil thing that was going to tell him just how many horns he had on his head, and what the temperature of hades would be when he got there. The Dr. recommended he stop coming to therapy, because he was being very stubborn/defensive. He was supposed to get individual therapy to resolve individual issues. It was the doctor's opinion that the problems in our marriage were very solvable, but that it wasn't going to take place until my husband's personal demons stopped haunting him. (Or at least tempered a bit) If you're like I was back then you probably think the end of therapy rings the death knoll for your marriage. Not true. It makes things more difficult, and it requires a bit more patience, but it doesn't nail the coffin shut.

Thanks SO much everyone for your replies! Scanman, I came to the point weeks ago of realizing I would be OK whether he stayed or not...it has been much easier sleeping since then. But, regardless of that I really, really want it to work! I keep using that plane analogy to remind me that I cannot control what he does...it helps!<P>Beth, I don't think that if he left therapy it would necessarily be the end of the marriage...but I do think it would both slow things down and lessen the chance of success. Personally, I'm for doing whatever it takes to get to a happier place as fast as possible (yesterday would be good, but I'm trying hard to be more realistic than that...next week would be fine !!!<P>K: I'll try to remember to say hi to Steve for you. I do like him, and am glad to have a more concrete "plan" than we were managing on our own.<P>db, IsIt, TNT, RWD and Jamie-Lee: thanks so much for your posts...I was so down yesterday, and seeing all the support here has made me feel much, much better. <P>I'm doing much better today...Hope everyone is doing well!<P>Kathi<P>

Hey Kathy that's great! Yeah I still believe we would be much further along on our road through recovery if he had stayed in counseling. He was in a pretty major depression for five months, and despite my wishes that everything fix itself I was really scared for his health as well. Having a psych degree you probably know a bit about the depression cycle, and how at the lowest part of it thinking becomes incredibly inflexible. I don't know if this is where your husband is, but mine was there. Where normally he would have been very open to all sorts of ideas he was closed down tight. He would tell the counselor he had no choices one moment, and ask me what I thought he should do with his life the next. As a last exercise before my husband stopped coming to the sessions the counselor told him to make a list of all the positive things about our marriage before making any decision to leave. He also told him that when he chose to he was more than welcome to come back, or if he chose to he could work things out on his own.<P>If I analyzed my own behavior since that point it would reflect an attempt to help him see the choices he did have with each decision. It was real difficult for me to allow him to come up with those choices rather than just tell him what they were. Sometimes I did good, sometimes not. (Yeah the control issue is a problem with me too. I'd nurture him to death left without some kind of restraint on myself)<P>How about a patience injection shot? You are planning on a lifetime with him so it makes sense to worry about quality of recovery rather than quantity and speed of recovery. Don't be afraid to let your relationship take it's time to heal so that it heals right. (Remind me of this statement the next time I need a patience injection shot )