Okay just to clarify a bit... I still feel a lack of respect for any single individual who pursues a married person. Never having been around two married people having an affair with each other, I am not sure how it differs other than both parties are sad in a marriage and are looking to get out or get some happiness. Again, I see no reason for a single person to pursue a relationship with a married person, unless of course they just want to cause problems and/or have fun without commitment(s). <BR>Whoever, said to be careful of how we judge the OP's. I agree, I don't hate them nor do I wish them harm, but I don't respect them. Do I want my daughter to be raised by them. NO. Can they seek repentance and be sorry for what they have done. Yes, I think they can, but it's one thing to have a short affair, one night stand, and then back off and be repentant. But to continue, I think says alot about them. I know I am being biased based on my situation, but my wife has not filed for separation or divorce, nor has she sought that out from me. Therefore, the OM is still having an affair with a married woman (and yes she is still having an affair, causing me to really continue to lose more respect for her). If it's so much better, get a divorce already. Therefore, the OM is making a conscious decision to continue to be involved in totally wrecking the marriage. <P>Steve Harley gave me a good analogy that I liked. The vulnerable spouse is starving and very hungry for food (emotional needs). Then she is offered to be feed and maybe even great fast food like McDonalds. She of course being hungry continues to go there because it's open. Over time the consequences of continuing to eat there will catch up with her, just like eventually affairs cause so much damage that may never get repaired. All I'm saying, is that the OP's are like drug dealers (remember the Harley affair addiction analogy), do we really need to like them or respect them? No, we can pray for them and not hate them, but can I really ever forgive the OM. Probably not, but it's not me who they will ultimately answer to.

Ahhhh Sheryl,<P>A topic near and dear to me. I admit without any reservation, that I was an "OW" hater! I believe it was you Sheryl who bashed me when I said in a very early post of mine that if Mia was choking on a piece of food, I wouldn't help with the Heimlich manuver... Pretty sad, huh. Back then I hated her. She was evil. She hunted my H like prey. But in the end, and much like I've recently admitted, and maybe more so to Sheryl in emails, that it WAS really my inability and refusal to see that I didn't meet H's needs. Any of them. He was the one who was relentless in wanting to seek counseling, wanting to talk things out. I never thought it was "that bad". I brushed things off as typical married people ups and downs. But we had more downs. Lots of them. And yes, hard as this is to admit, I turned a blind eye.<P>Mia is not evil. She talked to my H, and he listened. She listened to him. She cared about what was going on with him when I could care less. And you know what? Only when H admitted his affair to me did he begin to "look good" again to me. But by then, it was far too late to re-build anything of our marriage. We are in the midst of the divorce process, but I am slowly coming to terms with why and how this whole mess happened. I still have resentment for Mia. But only because she made H feel good as a human being and I didn't. I didn't because I don't think at the time it seemed to matter to me. Do I wish I could go back in time? Of course I do. But I can't. He's much happier now.<P>So, for what it's worth, maybe some of us betrayed people should really think about what it is we did or failed to do to contribute to the destruction of our relationships. It is true what Sheryl says. Not all OP's are horrible people...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...betrayed people should really think about what it is we did or failed to do to contribute to the destruction of our relationships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that's right: there must have been something wrong with the betrayed to have <I>forced</I> the betrayers to have an EMR. I'm sorry, but that sort of betrayed-bashing thinking really offends me!!! Infidelity is <B>never</B> justifiable. <P>Guilt shouldn't be heaped upon the backs of the betrayed. After all, no matter which way you look at it, the betrayers had the choice to <I>leave</I> the marriage rather than betray. No matter what, betrayers always had the choice to walk away rather than do what they did - but they willingly chose to hurt the ones that they supposedly trusted, respected, and loved the most (and vice versa).<P>Let me sit back and think about what I must have done to encourage my XH to betray: I took him on a romantic island get-away; I pleaded with him to get counselling (both for himself regarding unresolved personal issues and for us) but he refused; I stood by him 100% and gave him support through thick and thin; I bent over backwards to accomodate him, his needs, and his wishes... <P>Most importantly of all, I <I>forgave</I> my XH's betrayal. I wished only for a happy future <I>together.</I> Everything I ever gave him turned to so much dust in the wind when I discovered he was again deceiving and betraying... <P>I find it reprehensible that <I>anybody</I> would place any blame on the betrayed, especially since so often they suffer so greatly at the hands of their betrayers and the OP! I find laying blame on the betrayed extremely offensive. It is the exception, rather than the rule, that the betrayed had anything to do with their spouses' decision to betray. Almost all EMRs occur as a result of one spouses' selfishness, insensitivity, and escapism, not because anybody drove them to it...<P>Stop bashing the betrayed!!! We didn't ask for it, we didn't cause it, we certainly won't tolerate being blamed for it!!!<P>------------------<BR>~~ Elixir ~~<P>

Remember, I (and let's face it, most others who post here) are betrayed, and my betrayals are old (13 years) and NEW (<B>3 weeks old</B>, to be exact)... if you think for one second that I am *justifying* an affair, you think wrong. I am <B>NOT</B>. What I am suggesting is that those who betray are human beings who sometimes, <B>not all the time</B>, are people just like us, and in fact, I <B>am</B> one of those people. <P>I am not approving of an adulteress lifestyle, and I have felt the brunt of the pain from both sides... <B>4 times</B> was I the betrayed... so don't for one moment suggest that I haven't felt that kind of pain.<P>As Tired Lady said, when she posted that Mia could choke on a piece of meat in front of her and she wouldn't help... well, that just topped it for me. You'd let a fellow human being, because she was an adultress, <B>die</B> in front of you without helping? And sorry in advance to Tired Lady, this is NOT something *I* would have brought up, but since you did, I'm kinda running with it... love to you, TL... <P>Folks, this is obviously an "on fire" subject, and I guess I thought it might be, but not to the extent that some of these posts are written... <P><B>Nellie, Taj, izzy and Elixer</B>, I am sorry if my posting this has upset you. I cannot begin to tell you the level of pain I have felt over the years of infidelity in my marriage. My only hope is that in posting this, someone who has harbored bitterness can see that not all betrayers are evil people, and maybe let go of some bit of pain.

Elixir, lighten up. Is it <B>so</B> inconceivable to you that a betrayed person contributed to the downfall of their marriage?!? That's all people are saying. There has been <B>NO</B> bashing of betrayed here.<P> <P>--andy

Can I throw a little lumber on the fire?I have some mixed feelings on this one,too.I don't like the idea that the betrayed somehow forced the betrayer into an affair.This makes the marriage look so one-sided.There were plenty of times when I felt unloved,ignored,belittled,insulted,and criticized by my W over the last 22 years.I suppose I could of cheated on her,and then made her feel like the guilty party.It's so easy to do,isn't it?As for the OM,I don't hate him,but I have no respect for any man who pursues a married woman.I don't know the whole story of how their fling got started,or who flirted with who,and maybe I'll never know.I do know that after his W divorced him,he read a lot of books,and preached to my W.I guess he felt he was saving her from an unhappy marriage.At least he convinced her it was unhappy.I'm probably madder at my W for allowing a third party into our marriage.He is young,and immature,and doesn't even know what he is getting himself into,with a relationship with her.Now there's a comforting thought,that we know things about our spouses that they don't....yet. In some ways,I guess I should feel sorry for him!<BR> --Murph

Murphy,<BR>I agree with you. I really am not to terribly upset with OM other than he took advantage of my W because of things that I said when I tried to squelch the affair. I successfully did this with the previous affair she tried to start. As a matter of fact, the previous affair she tried to start which is not included in the 8 is still my friend. He has helped me immensely because he had just gone through what she was trying to start up with him.<P>I thought OM wanted to make his marriage work because he was asking advice on what to do with his W. It turns out that she was just another notch on his bed post. She is still talking with him now. I guess she has gotten over her anger at him getting someone esle pregnant. I don't know what made her think that he would be faithful to her when he wasn't being faithful to his W. Her only concern was about getting AIDs. Should have thought about that when she decided to have sex with him much less unprotected sex.<P>It is a shame that stupidity runs rampant when we let our emotions run our lives. Emotions are only a tiny part of the equation for those who know more of the real deal.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

My H and I have made such great progress since IT happened. But I do hold alot of anger at the OW. She wrote to him (during the affair) that she didnt know if the troubles between him and his wife were true or not but that she didnt care. I was pregnant at that time and she had the nerve to call me to find out if I was really pregnant and was so smug and cold hearted. She also called our home when we finally reconciled so that she could cause trouble. I know you cant lump all OW/OM into a group of horrible mean people. In this case she was a manipulative and selfish b***h. Wow as I'm writing this I realize I'm getting pretty pissed off. I'm not sure where its all coming from. I came home to beautiful flowers for V-Day and H and I have gotten so much closer. I guess the anger is still there and this just brought it out. I vented, I'm done. Take care, Magoskid

Okay, you tell me who I should be angry with:<P>The other woman, who just this last Friday put a card on my H's car at work, and then waited (stalked) him and followed him to the gas station at 11:30 at night... and then got out of her car to talk to him. My H got into the car with her, and she took off, even though he told her not to. Uh... yeah, right. You tell me... do I get mad at the woman who has been told over and over again that his marriage is over, but now he's kinda sorta trying because it's the "right thing to do" or do I get mad at him, the HUSBAND, who can't seem to tell her to get lost. <P>This has been my point all along during this thread... yes, she knew he was married, but he presented himself as a lonely struggling man who's W hated him. They <B>prayed together</B> for goodness sakes! They are <B>both</B> Christians... and they slept together and then felt like crap about it... but... in her eyes, that night of passion meant that he was hers... and he did little to disuade her. <P>I just can't blame her, at least not entirely. He's the one who is married to me, who *says* he loves me, but defends her...<BR>Do I like her? Nope. Do I care if she's hurt? Not really. But I understand.<P>I don't know guys... I just have a hard time with this whole issue, which I why I brought it up in the first place.

Hi Sheryl,<P>I'm finally responding to this post. In regards to your recent question about your H & OW at the gas station and driving off away together? They are BOTH at fault.<P>That OW doesn't know how to let go. In my opinion, the OW is 100% responsible for her behavior and so is your H's. David should have not even gotten into the car with her.<P>If he really wants to work on his marriage, then he needs to tell her to get lost! No contact, etc. etc. etc.!<P>Oh boy....it's making me angry, and I'm sorry about that.<P>I just hate the vacillating back & forth. It's either your H needs to make up his mind and stop dragging it through....He needs to stay committed!<P>When he was posting on the forum, I thought he really wanted the marriage to work. Little did I know that he was getting closer & closer to having an affair with this church woman. Wasn't he learning anything from this forum?<P>How did you find out about this anyway? Was he honest with you and informed you of it?<P>In my case, I cannot stand the ex-OW. She is a 100% pure jerk! She could care less if I were around or not. She wants my H and proved it by coming around after 9 months absence to try to get him back in her bed.<P>Then, she had the audacity to tell me that my marriage is & has been over?? Geez! Where the heck has her sorry a$$ been during those 9 months she wasn't around (when he dumped her??)<P>Then, she e-mails me and tells me that she is sorry BUT she will have these feelings about my H and that I cannot take those away from her??<P>What kind of bull-crap apology is that? She makes me freakin' sick! I'm so sick of her crap for almost a year now. Thank goodness that she isn't around or I'd really let her have it.<P>I can forgive when a betrayer is truly remorseful, as the former betrayers on this MB forum are. However, in my case...this ex-OW in our lives is just a piece of trash.<P>p.s. I got off on a tangent and vented & went off. I apologize. It just hit an extremely sore spot for me. I never asked for that tramp to come into our lives or to keep coming back into our lives...<BR>Hopefully, she is moving forward in her life so that she can stop invading ours.

Sheryl,<BR>Just because you publicly say that you have given your life over to Jesus doesn't make you a Christian. No, I don't know what is in their hearts, yet He says that you will know a tree by its fruit. The fruit they are displaying is not the appropriate fruit.<P>I listen to June Hunt and she says that she thought she was saved until she really deveoped a realtionship with Jesus which told her that she was not truly a Christian up to that point. She was a pious person who did the rituals that most use to say that they are Christians. There are going to be many He is going to say that I never knew you. These persons are going to be shocked as will the pharisees and saducees who say Jesus in person physically.<P>You should pray that they develop a real relationship with Jesus. When that happens then David will realize that his place is with you.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

No Trust,<P>He told me, but not without my prodding... you know how you KNOW but you don't want to know, but you do???<P>I do apologize for any pain caused by this thread... never my intention!<P>The OW in my case is truly a hurting, pathetic and sad person who either isn't taking no for an answer, or is being told something that I don't know about... I suspect the latter... I think she's being told that he 'wants' to try, but I don't, and she's being given the idea that if she just hangs on, they will be together. Oh well...<P>David does love me... but... and I do love him... but...<P>What a freeking mess!

NB - I keep coming back to this thread! Am only posting now because, though I knew I wanted to add my $.02 worth to the subject, I wasn't sure what I wanted to say.<P>It depends on how the affair developed, I think, as to just how culpable the affair partners are. <P>In my case, I can say pretty DAMN culpable, I think! As near as I can piece together the story of my W's affair (and there are a LOT of pieces - it's been like doing a jigsaw) it goes like this.<P>W met OM a couple of years before she met me. At the time OM was living with a woman he later married. I don't know if W's affair with OM started at this time. It might have and might have been "just" an emotional affair, who knows? <P>Anyway, I do know for certain that she made contact with him AFTER she and I started going together. We'd already established a committed relationship when she started having contact with him again and, at this point, he was engaged to be married. He got married shortly before my W and I got engaged and I'm virtually certain they were seeing each other at this time and at least had an emotional affair going, because she was keeping her relationship with him secret and that's a sure sign. (She told me about all her other past relationships except this one.)<P>So tell me this. If they having even an emotional affair (and it may have been physical too, for all I know), when my W's about to become engaged and the OM is about to be married, what does that SAY about them? I mean, I can understand if someone who's been married 5 or 10 years meets and falls in love (or at least gets infatuated) with someone other than the marriage partner. What I CAN'T understand is someone who has an affair while they're in the process of getting married or engaged!<P>Moreover, because I suspected something like this at the time, I REPEATEDLY asked my W-to-be if there was someone else. (Even brought this up in couples counseling before we were married.) I even told her (repeatedly) that it wasn't fair to me to go ahead with our marriage if there was someone else, but she just kept denying it.<P>So, I would say that a betrayer who does something is maybe at least moving in a trashy direction.<P>--Wex

((((SHERYL))))<P>Please...please...please....DO NOT apologize for posting this thread. I think it is a good one, and I'm sure a lot of people think of the same questions that you are asking.<P>It's just that they didn't ask it first, or they would have.<P>It's interesting to see a variety of thoughts on this subject. There sure are a lot of interesting opinions.<P>Yes...I do know what you mean about NOT wanting to prod your H with questions...but then, also wanting to know the truth and the answers.<P>This current OW invading your marriage is a pest! What a hypocrite Christian! She knows that David is living with you (his wife!) and wants to work on the marriage...YET here she is, STILL trying to worm herself in.<P>It makes me sick!<P>I want things to work out for you & David. I really do. I know it can work.<P>You know....I used to hate all OP's until I met you on this board. I used to generalize all of them. After getting to know you on this board, I realized that not all OP's are trash. It made me see differently. You opened up my eyes.<P>I see you differently because you feel remorseful for what you did, and you've done everything to show that you really are sorry. The people I do not feel any sympathy for, are the OP's who continue & consciously stay involved in affairs.<P>Gotta go.....hang in there!

I'm no saint, and I haven't been the best wife in many, many ways...<P>I'm constantly doing 'bad' and 'wrong' things, LB all over the place... I could blame it on being human... and indeed I am that!<P>Just trying to find some understanding...<P>Thanks to all who have replied...

Thank you for posting that message. I am the OW in a heart-wrenching affair. For 3 years I resisted the temptation to get involved with this man, but as the years passed and he shared more and more of his life with me, I fell deeply in love with him. I am a Christian and have unsuccessfully sought help from my pastor (he tried to help me, but I think I'm too far gone) and as a result, I have almost severed my relationship with the Lord. I have tried to end this affair 4 times but we can't seem to stay apart. Thankfully we live on opposite sides of the US and only cross paths for business once or so a month. I didn't mean to fall in love with him and trust me, I feel awful about it but I'll share some of a letter that he wrote me and perhaps you can undertand why I am having a hard time with this. Please pardon the length but I wanted to post the whole thing so it captures the pain he (and me!) are feeling and the guilt and confusion that we are experiencing........so here goes:<P>I have felt like I'm being torn apart inside ever since we began this relationship (for me I think it was Vegas that "hooked" me on you). You seem so "unreal" to me that it is almost scary. You have all of the things that I find so lacking in my marriage, and obviously that is what I find so attractive <BR>about you. You are the most wonderful, <BR>unique woman I have EVER had the pleasure of knowing. You are intelligent, fun, attractive, loving, romantic, sweet, erotic, sexy, playful, up-beat, and you make me feel so special, even though I think YOU are the special one.<P>I've told you before, but I'll say it again, that I have NEVER felt so much mutual love as what we have developed. You are always <BR>consuming my thoughts, I constantly find myself exploring thoughts of what life <BR>would be like with you. I will always be thankful for the fact that you have <BR>opened my eyes to what true love should be. You have also really made me reflect upon my life, and where it is heading. I really do feel so cheated by the life I am leading and truly do wish we could have a chance to see if all of the passion and love that you and I share would stand the test of time. <BR>I've said it before, but it seems like everyday you continue to amaze me with your capacity for love. It just continues to <BR>boggle my mind that you find me so desirable (since I guess I don't have that high of a level of self-esteem). <P>I know my current life is lacking in many aspects(you have helped to make that <BR>very clear), but it is still scary for me to toss it to the side. I don't know that I can even put my finger directly on it, but here are some of the things that scare me. Even though my marriage does not have <BR>anywhere near the "sparks/passion/love" that ours does, she is overall a decent person. She has nowhere near(and never will) the ability that you have to arouse the deep feelings of love and closeness that we have shared. You are my dream of an ideal mate. She is a loving mother to my children. I think she does love me(although not on the same level as the love we share). I'm just not crazy in love, like I feel for you. My fear is that ours will fade with time as well. Although, I know your point will be that xxxxx and I never ever had that passion. In retrospect, I know you are right. We never experienced the love that you and I share.....we got married because I was forced to make a decision under pressure. Either I married her, or she was moving back to NJ. Looking back, I guess I did make the wrong decision, but I was young, stupid, and scared that I might never find someone who even wanted me. <P>I know I shouldn't care, but I also was brought up in a single-marriage family, <BR>and divorce was always kind of frowned on by my parents. I know that they were <BR>not real thrilled when my brother got divorced several years ago. I know I <BR>shouldn't be so concerned about what others think, but it does cross my mind. I think of how badly her folks, and siblings will think of me. I feel like I would be abandoning my wife, kids, and responsibilities. I guess it makes me <BR>feel so self-centered. For months, I have passively wished that something would happen to her(she would have an affair, figure out she was a lesbian(...lol) I know that sounds terrible, but that's how much I wish we could give our relationship a chance to grow. I guess, now that I look at it.....it really does show that I am gutless about making the decision......I would really find it much easier, if I was not the one <BR>initiating the breakup.<P>Then there are the other reasons that make me hesitant: I do truly love my children to death. It's hard to know that I would be giving up the chance to see them every day, and know that I wouldn't be there to help them grow and develop into wonderful adults. To give up those warm, tender embraces.....to see the excitement in their eyes when "Daddy's home"......not to see them go to sleep and wake up everyday of their lives. I would feel like an outsider rather than an integral part of their lives. And what if they did move to NJ? Then I would only get to occasionally see them. I also fear that as they grow older that they would think that I didn't love them, or that I was horrible for leaving them and xxxxx.<P>Damn it Hootie....at times I have so many mixed emotions about you. I love you <BR>for all you have shared with me, and all of the eye opening and soul-searching you have made me do. At other times, I wish we had never met so I could be "happy" with my miserable little life, and wasn't always comparing things to how "it would be with Judy".<P>I'm not through spilling my guts yet, but I've been busy with work problems the last 2.5 hours, so I think I will send this and follow-up again with another message. Sorry for the unorganized, rambling format, but it kind of mimics my mind! END OF LETTER.<P>I am not trash. I am a broken woman after just trying to end it a 4th time....he came and stayed at my house for the last week and I just put him on a plane this morning with instructions to never call me again...to try and make his marriage work. I begged him to seek counseling. I only hope I can be strong this time and not get weak at the sound of his voice. Sorry for the length and again, thanks for acknowledging that all of us OP are not scum.<P>

Dearest AZ,<P>Your post is very sad, and indeed I have felt as you do. <P>I am so very sorry for your pain!<P>I don't know if you read every post in this thread, but I am coming from the position of both the betrayed and betrayer, so I understand this thing better than some, I think.<P>You've put alot of information here, and I can't begin to tell you how much it hurts me to read it! Such pain...<P>Please know that you have come to the right place, that you are welcome here, and that you can help this man heal his marriage by sticking to your no-contact rule, but it will be hard... don't leave it all up to him... you're gonna have to work very hard too!<P>Best wishes to you!

A million thanks, NB....yes, I read every single post on this thread. I can't tell you how appreciative I am that you started it. <P>He called me twice today. Once he got my voicemail, the other time, he caught me live but I told him I wouldn't talk to him and I hung up immediately. That is one of the hardest things I have had to do in my life. <P>This morning, the alarm sounded, I turned it off and we both fell back to sleep. I woke up only 10 minutes before I needed to leave to take him to the airport and it took every ounce of goodness I had inside of me, not to just let him sleep and miss his flight. <P>Because I am a decent person, I am constantly fighting battles in my head. Don't get mad at me for saying this but I get so angry at her - his wife - for not treating him decently. For not making him feel loved and cherished and desired. Then I get angry at myself for even having such thoughts. This has been such an emotional nightmare and as much as I want it to end, it is still so terribly painful to be strong and not take his calls or answer his emails. This is the 4th time I've tried to end it. I pray it's the last.<P>Thank you so much for your understanding. It truly helps.

I appreciate the honesty of new beginning in bringing up the truth about OPs.<P>In truth, both parties to the affair, whether real or emotional, are OPs. Those who post and place the major blame on the OP in their lives (or their spouse's) would likely lose in a court of law with an objective judge looking at all the facts. Most who post are so caught up in justifying what they did and, very likely compromising the real facts to do so, that they are not credible when all is said and done.<P>How do I know? I was an OP, and my OW posted frequently on this very forum at one time. She placed all the blame on me and went further by fabricating "facts" to justify her part in the affair and my alleged terribleness. She received much sympathy and advice concerning her situation as presented in this forum, because everyone automatically believed her. Her OP was spoken of in loathing terms not just by her but by others in this forum. Unfortunately, the OP was "lurking" on this bulletin board and printed out what was being written. In an actual court of law, an impartial judge found her not credible. The printed postings, and the advice given on this forum to her, played a role in this finding.<P>In a forum such as this, "he said/she said" is enough evidence to blast the OP as the guilty one who caused all the wrong. I dare say that we would likely refrain from the venom if we knew the actual facts about the situation. Perhaps, it would be wise if more discernment were exercised in dispensing advice to parties we don't know from Adam and who might be hurt more in real life if they follow the advice.

Imagine my surprise at opening up MB today and seeing this thread up again! Wow!<P>WJC, I appreciate the kudos, and I am truly sorry for your pain. I am glad things are working out for your and your child, by the way! From your very limited postings, you seem like a good man.<P>When you said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I dare say that we would likely refrain from the venom if we knew the actual facts about the situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I had two thoughts... yes, if we knew the whole story it would be much easier to give advice, but... I think so many people (me included) have flown by the seat of our very hurt pants in giving advice. If you look back at my posts, you'll see the most convoluted set of mixed up emotions, because when I came I was the betrayer, although I had been betrayed, and then I was betrayed again... jeez... what a mess... and although I've become somewhat of an expert on the subject of infidelity, I still sometimes get a bit nasty with people... maybe I should take your advice and tread a bit more lightly from now on... try to get the whole story. <P>Thanks for posting this! I always want to work from the perspective of a person of compassion, not judgement.<P>~Sheryl<BR>