<P><BR>Cat<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited March 20, 2000).]

No flames from me. There are more than a few people that have discovered they spend too much time on MB and not enough time with their spouse...there are times you/we need support desperately or want to help as you have been helped, but it is hard to give up.<P>It takes 2 to make the marriage work. You are one. You can't make the other person do anything.<P>Lor

Cat<P>Why does there have to be blame on either side? I do not see why anyone on this site finds it necessary to point out the "sins" of the betrayer.<P>Things are no so black and white, as simple as some people seem think. I have been in a situation myself where I was seen as the betrayer and the other woman in the triangle made some very vicious comments to me about how I should leave her man alone.<P>When you are in love it's not that simple. In my case neither of us was actually married to the man. I hated being part of a threesome and wanted to walk away so much but just could not.<P>You should be getting as much, if not more support than your H right now. It is obvious that neither of you is happy and if there are some answers on this site for you both that will be wonderful.<P>For this situation to improve, blame, bad, weak and all negative terms and words must be abolished. Not easy, I know.<P>I do not believe that anyone is "bad". We are all human and make mistakes, sometimes again and again but there's always hope. Things can change.<P>Good luck<P>Judy

<BR>Caterpillar,<P>Is this a chicken/egg problem? I mean, if you're willing to "go first," and agree to no more contact, would he then be willing to work on the marriage? Alternatively, if he was willing to work on the marriage, would you be willing to end all contact with the other person? <P>I'm not going to flame you, but here is my view. Affairs usually signal something deeply wrong in a marriage. However, the responsibility for an affair rests solely with the betrayer, and IMO if the marriage is to continue the betrayed gets to make a reasonable set of demands before an attempt to rebuild the marriage is made.<P>Bluntly, I consider a demand that the betrayer end all contact with the other person easily within the realm of "reasonable."<P>You mention that Allen is now in an emotional affair on MB. I haven't followed your story closely, so I can only go on what I've seen here. He might have resorted to having some of his needs met online because you're unwilling to recommit to the marriage. Simply put, something has to give here.<P>Allen is entitled to express his rage, anger, and hurt at what you've done. He's not entitled to use it as a weapon against you in perpetuity, nor is he justified in having an emotional affair on you. You want a solution? Try this. Offer to end all contact with the other person, to work towards repairing your marriage, on the condition that Allen agree not to throw your affair in your face all the time, and that Allen end his online emotional affair.<P>You are the one who destroyed the trust, and this isn't a flame - but I really think you're the one who needs to make the first move.<P>Bystander

Cat,<BR>Your post reminds me of when my kids argue. I did this because he did that type of thing. There are many ways to justify behavior and one of them is to blame it on another person. Your poor choice to continue the affair is just that, your poor choice. Your h not doing plan A is his poor choice. <P>Obviously your needs are not being met by your h and are to some extent being met by the om. That would be very difficult to give up. Since you do have kids, I can think of no better reason to work on your marriage. Read about what divorce does to children -- it truly affects them for life. You cannot however work on your marriage while you are still in contact with the om. I know that neither option has much appeal right now. I hope that your h can see how to plan A while your are with om or else he goes directly to plan B. Those are the two options. He is either depositing love units or withdrawing. Sounds like his account is very low with you and he cannot afford to withdraw any more. As unfair as things are, it usually is the betrayed that has to go the extra mile to restore the marriage. As long as you are in your affair, you will not see much good in your h no matter what it is that he does. Make your choice. I hope it is your marriage.

So since your H has the NERVE to bring up the hurt he is going through that you inflicted, then it is easier to go to the OM because OM doesn't complain, *****, or get upset. TALK ABOUT CONFLICT AVOIDER.

Hi Cat,<P>I would be surprised if anyone really flames you for this post. I'm sure you are very frustrated and unhappy, and being given an ultimatum is not a pleasant experience.<P>But, keep in mind that most of us here have been betrayed and we do tend to see things from that perspective. I have also seen the pain and regret that my husband feels, so I know that betrayers suffer too.<P>That said, let me say that no matter what your husband's faults might be, you are the one that is being unfaithful. He cannot force you to stop your affair, nor can he control your behavior. By refusing to break contact with the other man you are refusing to commit to your marriage and accept responsibility for your actions.<P>I do think your husband should do what feels right for him. If he cannot live with your continued betrayal, and if you refuse to stop doing it, your marriage is doomed to fail.<P>Just think about it this way, shouldn't the person who made the biggest mistake make the biggest sacrifice and effort? Makes sense to me.<P>Best wishes to both of you,<P>Peppermint

Lor, thanks for not flaming, but where does that leave us? <P>Judy, thank you for your kind words, I realize what you say is true, but I guess my anger stems from the fact that Allen Is getting support for not trying but I get lambasted for being just as weak as he is.<BR>We are just being weak in different ways.<P>Bystander, I agree with your statements, I realize we had serious problems in our marriage. I agree his request is a reasonable one and I did try to follow it, but the slip up I made ended up in a fullblown knockdown fight and I realized I was killing him and I couldn't commit so the option was to seperate. I did ask for a divorce then, realizing I was weak and not the person he deserves, he opted to seperate.<BR>I guess I am afraid of making the first move because I do love him and I can't say I won't hurt him by having contact. I wish I were strong, I wish we did have 10 years of a perfect marriage that we could fall back on.<P>Derby, I have read and read on everything involving this whole situation (and I have a degree in child development) I am fully aware of what it can do to the children and I am also aware of what having two parents living together who are constantly involved in emotional warfare can do to them too. If we had a basis for a wonderful recovery or even a glimmer of hope we would. but we do realize the kids can NOT be the only factor in deciding, there has to be something more.<P>Trying..and it is even easier to toss around labels when you only know a slice of our story. If I were a conflict avoider would I have posted knowing full well I would very likely hear things I don't want to hear? Would I have even confessed and tried to reconcile? Would I have been the one a year ago to beg Allen to read His needs her needs with me? Would I have been the one the ten years of our marriage to go without my needs being met, while his were filled.<BR>Does it occur to you that I "run to OM" because he fills my emotional needs? He fills them in ways they have never been filled. You may not believe that statement, but Allen and I have discussed this at great length. We have talked and talked, he knows how I feel and I don't think he would consider me a conflict avoider. If anything in the ten years of our marriage, he would fit that label. <BR>And another thing, Then why is it OK for him to avoid our conflict by becoming involved in an EA right now? Could you answer me that before you label me please?<P>Pepperment, thanks for you reply and yes I realize that. But when I have heard things like "I don't love, I can never get over this" and over and over how bad I am, it is like playing with fire, at some point you learn to avoid it. He has told me as recently as last night that he doesn't think we could do it, that doesn't give me much hope to try. <BR>And while on the subject of greater pains, how can you say? My pain that I have caused was sudden and very obvious, but what about the pain he caused the past ten years. I think they may be equal in size, just differnent in the time inflicted.<P>And I do appreciate all you responses, We are all at stalemate and maybe both of these posts will give us the "slap upside the head" that we both seem to need right now, either that or help us realize what needs to be done.<P>Thanks again.<BR>Cat

I will gladly flame you<P>You are the worst kind of self centered coward there is. You care nothing of the feeling for your children, you spouse, or yourself. If there is a problem with a marriage work to either repair it or end it. Being involved with an EA continues to damage the marriage as well as clouds your vision as to divorce. Of course folks have trouble with plan A Try for one second to place yourself in your husbands shoes and watch him have sex with another woman whilst he tries to make up his mind about you.

What is it that you are looking for in here? Someone to actually say "hey, you tried for years so who could blame you for having an affair, CONGRATULATIONS you went outside your marriage when things were bad to get your needs filled"! If it was that bad then leave, you say you tried to get him to wake up to the seriousness of the fall of your marriage with no response from him then hey, you tried, pick yourself up and leave. But don't come hear and say, Hey I tried, he didn't do it so I went to someone else, so why is no one behind me. It sounds like you both need to wake-up. His EA, yes he needs to decide which one deserves more of his time his marriage or his internet friend (if that is what you are implying)! It's as if you both are trying to prove how you are both justified in your actions and reactions, and the only thing you will both get is nothing. You'll both wake up from your stubborn sleep, and think, "Well, I should have used my head instead of my anger, resentment, etc". Now it just looks like plain stupidity on both parts. Pride is a lonely life partner.

Hi, Cat.<P>I'm a former betrayer myself, and right now, I'm getting ZERO needs met by H (playing violin). But I would in no way go back to the OM or find another one, I know how much pain it causes all involved, not only my husband but even me. Emotional needs are important and if neglected for a long time, something may happen unfortunately. But by having the OM in the picture, aren't you kind of saying to your H that you don't want to work on the marriage? Yes, there are issues you two need to work on, but how can you even start when the contact continues between you and the OM? <P>What makes you think your H is having an EA? Because he receives support here? Is there more to it, because IMO, an EA is a deep involvement that will eventually lead to a physical involvement. Not receiving support from a group of individuals going through the same thing. If you can both sit down and come to a point of compromise, calmly relating to one another what would help you both to be better able to meet each other's emotional needs (POJA), then that's at least a starting point. And of course getting the OM out of the picture completely would be the first step if you want your marriage.

I honestly don't understand how you can make a rational decision about your marriage while someone else is in the picture. I know you've heard it all before. Think about it, do you reeeeally want someone who could continue to place himself between you and your sacred vows? I certainly do understand not having your needs met and being tempted to have them met by someone else. On the other hand, as hard as it is, you need to make a good faith effort to your husband. Not only are you being unfair to your husband, but you are being unfair to this OM (I know most people here won't care about that). You are keeping him around just in case things don't work out with your H. That IS pretty cowardly. Show that you can practice a little self-restraint and a little delayed gratification, ya know? <P>So your H doesn't want to plan A. He's still married to you in spite of your continued affair which says alot. You need to show a good faith effort and completely give up the OM. I truly do understand about not having your needs met for a long, long time. It comes down to a) leave the OM and work on the marriage or b) get a divorce. Stop dragging things out either way. Why should your H plan A? He's basically been shown that you will, without too much damage to your conscience, replace him if he's not on the ball. That would be pretty depressing.

Cat,<BR>I really have no advice but hey, I don't have any flames either. I am the betrayed but since I've read everything on this site, I understand how a marriage can get this bad. I no longer place the blame on either side, unless abuse takes place. <P>So....how bout I just send you some big (((((HUGS)))))!?!<P>Mitzi

((((((((Caterpillar))))))))<P>No flames here either....<BR>I'm sorry you are feeling so frustrated.... <BR>Please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you...

Ditto what "TheStudent" says. If your marriage was so bad and OM is so wonderful then I do not see what the problem is? It seems cut and dried. <P>As far as your H having an EA with someone on the site and spending time with them instead of working on PLAN A. First, of all I thought I detected a note of jealousy there. Like Hey, he's supposed to be pining away over me and instead he's doing something else. But you know the way it comes across is that you get some kind of weird emotional satisfaction of having two men who want you. And now that your H seems to have lost interest in the contest you are throwing a fit like a spoiled child.<P>Hey, I do not know either of you but I gotta admit I felt kind of sorry for your H. To have you post here while continuing your affair and expecting him to execute Plan A.<BR>I cannot even imagine how painful that is.

OK for the last 8 years of my 22 yr. marriage<BR> I have not had my needs met by my H, By all rights I should have been the one to have the affair!!!!!!<P>Alright so I didn't meet his needs either but it's hard when you keep getting rejected.<P>I tried for all those years to keep this family together and all it got me was a very low self-esteem, sure I get attention and in some way some needs met here <BR>but I would rather get them from H.<P>I'm not sure why I'm spouting off but it seems neither one wants to <BR>go first and neither one wants to work at it.<P>I also have a degree in Child Development,<BR>have either of you heard the term Self Fullfilling Prophesy ? If you say it's not going to work them it won't.<P>You do have to understand where some of us are coming from on this board, we will still reach out to those in need ,even the betrayers, altho I'm not so sure if the OP got on here would we be so diplomatic.<P>------------------<BR>Peg

Well there is so much going on today in our lives that I can't even respond to each of you. But in general:<P>Why am I here? well probably for the same reason I haven't filed for divorce, maybe I feel there should be a way to save our marriage but we are unable to see it.<P>Maybe this is a way for Allen and I to get our anger and resentment out instead of at each other. But nothing either of us has said hasn't been said in person.<P>Maybe I feel I need to be punished by those who feel safe enough to take out thier anger at thier spouse on me. <P>Maybe I just am trying to show you that not everything is black and white and simple, that there are a 1000 shades of gray in between.<P>I don't think it is pride that is stopping us as much as fear.<P>I am not trying to justify my actions, I Know they are wrong, I know my choices are wrong, I do feel remorse, I do feel pain, I do feel hurt and shame and guilt and a hundred other feelings that unless you are a betrayer you can't understand either.<P>I am just saying there are always more then one side to a story and not everything can be shoved into a right or wrong box.<P>That he is as unwilling to try as I am, just in different ways.<P>I sincerely do appreciate those of you who are understanding and offering support. God knows I need it today. And I do understand the anger of other posters, and there is nothing I can say to justify my actions.<P>Am I jealous of him? maybe that he has a support system and I don't but we are equally to blame and equally unwilling to try and I guess that hurts.<P> Cat

Cat,<BR>You sound like my x, although she never has said she still loves me.<P>My x thought I never could get over the hurt and you know what, she never gave me the chance too. She couldn't get rid of the ring he gave her, it was too expensive and he wouldn't take it back. So she put it in a safe deposit box. I found out later she got it back out a month later.<P>So if you love your husband and do want your marriage to work, you must give up all contact with om. Look at how many other posters here went through the same thing. with their spouse still seeing the op and the suffering was extended because the affair never ends and with the loss of trust, there is no healing.<P>If you don't want to stay in the marriage, then leave your husband, don't make him suffer any longer than he has too. He can recover faster than if you drag it out trying to let him down slowly.<P>I believe you posted to me earlier that you are sole care giver for the kids although I would question this if you had time to fit in an affair and thats why you want your H to leave. <P>How does your om feel about help raising your kids? I'm sure it will drive your h nuts as it does me. Thats why I think you should leave. I haven't seem any posting here where people in affairs have any time for their children. Are you any different ?

RWD<BR>I may be a bad person and a horrible wife, but I am a good mother. I have made some bad choices but I have always and will always be a good mother to my children. I have never put them second place. LOL that could be why our marriage was so bad in the first place.<BR>So does that make me any different? probably not in your eyes, but I know what is true and will always be true in my own heart. I am a good mother.<BR>Cat

Okay, I knew this would work out this way.<P>1st: Cat is the best mother to our kids. She loves them and nurtures them and supports them and has dedicated her life to them the past nine years. Please don't question her love and devotion as a mother.<P>2nd: Cat, I love you and want to recover from this with you. I just can't do this w/ OM in the picture. No plan will work with that distraction to me. We've discussed it and that's my final answer, no more life lines. <P>3rd: Life sucks. <P><P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com