To recap, it took me 6 months to decide to "try" with my h. It's been a month into it and I still don't know if I made the right choice. I don't know if I really love him anymore, and the big question in my mind is CAN I DO THIS??? It is so hard to say the least. Anyway, there is a part of me that wants to ask him to leave again and date me. I also want the option to date other men, who knows, I may find happiness, or I may find that it truly is my h that I want. I feel he has broken the covenent and I am no longer bound to it. Why should I be commited at this point? I can't even fathom that right now, my counselor said we could have a new ceremony and make new vows....but I'm no way ready for that, besides why should I beleive any vow from him? Its so hard and I feel so scared to commit to him. There also is a part of me that feels this is the opportunity to live single again and see if that is there is a chance to make a new life for my self. It's also a oppurtunity to see if I could be happier, so many women have started over and are much happier than before. I've struggled finacially for so long, its getting old. I don't know but I thought this is something I should try. Maybe also he would try harder if he felt threatened. I feel at times, he does take me for granted. Has anyone done this? I must admit, I would like to be wined and dined. I never had that...Why shouldn't I experience a new relationship? He had the opportunity, he had the experience of a fresh face, sex blah blah blah. (many times I might add) In my married life I was so lonely at times, I longed for someone to pay attention to me (him), he choose something else, and I was faithful thru all that. Now I feel it is my time. Any thoughts?<BR>

Crushed -- <B>You want to do WHAT ????</B> <P>Two wrongs do not make a right.<P>

Me, me, me, me, me!!!<P>Sounds like my Wife.<P>I guess marriage means as much to you as to your h?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Dear Crushed,<P>Although Empty Shell is a bit harsh with her words, she makes a very valid point. Clearly your H did not treat you well, clearly he broke his marriage vows, but you abandoning him is not any different. By using the word covenant, you indicate that you believe that marriage is a covenant, not a contract. There is a huge difference. A contract is bilateral, dependent on the performance of the parties involved. A covenant is not dependent on anything. When God made His covenant with Abram (after the covenant he became Abraham) it was not dependent on Abrahams behavior. Jonathon and David made a covenant together, (1 Samual) they exchanged robes and arms, sympolizing that Davids enemies are now Jonathons and Jonathons are now Davids enemies. Jesus is the fulfillment of the covenant that God made with Christians. There is nothing we can DO to be saved, all we have to do is believe. All our sins are forgiven and washed away and remembered not. (read the post "can I ever forget?)<P>I believe that marriage is a earthly, God created and ordained example of the covenant.<P>Let me tell you a little about myself. I am a recovering sex addict. It took my W leaving for me to recognize it, (I'm hoping very much that we would be able to reconcile). If your H recognizes himself, and what he has done, the worst thing you can do to him is leave him. He can and will recover much faster with your support. Don't enable him, hold him accountable, but love him. If he is truly repentfull, and it sounds like he is, you should be working toward forgiveness and considering re-building trust. Forgiveness and re-trusting are 2 different functions. Forgiveness is a choice you make for yourself and him. Re-trusting is a judgement.<P>For me, when my W and I reconcile, I frankly don't want her to trust me. Don't misunderstand that. I don't want her living in fear, I just want her to be willing to check my actions to see if they are consistant with what I am telling her. I want her to have total access to me, all of my wearabouts, all of my fears, doubts and frailties. I want to be able to be vulnerable with her. That I believe will bring about a healing of the dis-trust in time.<P>Please recognize who your enemy is. There are always 4 parties involved in these situations; God, Satan, your H and yourself. Your enemy is not your H. Satan is the one who wants you to think you could be happier with someone else. He is the one who lies to you and to your H.<P>If you H is at all like myself, getting in touch with and feeling the shame from my childhood, forgiving those who shamed me is the beginning process to healing our image of ourselves. When I realized the image that I had of myself, one who was not worthy of love, I realized that my actions were consistant with and in fact confirmed that image. I have felt all my marriage years that if my W really knew who I was, she couldn't possibly love me. And similarly I held that view about God. But when I recognized myself for who I really was, a wretched wretched sinner, who was loved by God, so much so that He gave the life of His son for ME, then I started to rethink the image I had of myself.<BR>It's kinda funny, but Satan tells us that we DESERVE happiness, but that we are unworthy of love. God says, we don't DESERVE happiness, (we can't earn heaven and he tells us that our rightousness is but rags) but that we are WORTHY of love. I now recognize that happiness isn't something I can pursue, it's a by-product of doing God's will. So instead of chasing happiness, (or avoiding pain, which is a large reason for addiction) I am now free to obey God and do His will.<P>Let me encourage you, you are so close to experiencing the love, the nights out, the adoration from your husband, don't give up now. Your faithfulness will not go unrewarded.<P>Proverbs 3:5&6 will give you peace.<P>God bless you, I'll be praying for you. And if there is anything I can help you with in regards to his addiction, I make myself available. By the way, I go to a 12 step group now as well.<P>Repenting<P>------------------<BR>Fear God and you will have nothing else to fear<P>Hosea 3

Crushed,<P>I don't know your whole story, but I felt the same way you did. Reading your letter sounded exactly like myself. I can share my experience with you and I am sure I will take heat for it, but I see you have had few responses here.<P>First off, the only thing that worries me is the statement that if your H would try harder if he was threatened. That does sound a little revengeful, or plotting. Don't do this because you want to be recognized, it could backfire. Some men, I hate to say this, but think its ok for them to go off and have an affair, but when their W does it, they are disgusted and feel ill towards her for the rest of their life. I have seen this mentioned here and other forums.<P>You sound like you are not sure either way, so I don't think seeing other people might necessarily be right.<P>I can tell you this. I am 27. I have 3 girls, ages 9,7,2. H left me on xmas day. MOved in with OW a week later, w/o admitting she was OW. He almost came home once, told me he loves me, (still does) and has stolen tax money, refused to pay child support, left me with thousands in bills and is taking OW on a vacation, that he never took me anywhere, he never wined and dined me, he always took me for granted. He seems to be out on the town all the time with her.<P>That was a brief overview. If you can read some of my old posts, so you can see just a month ago I was in severe pain. I did start "dating". If you could call it that, now that I think of it, yes you can. The first time I did this, I ran into an ex, and we had a great time, it really picked me up out of my funk. Since then, I have met 3 other people, who I am just "talking" with. To be honest, they are all nice. But there is one in particular, who I do really like. <P>I can tell you that he is nothing like H and is respectful and honest so far anyway. I am extremely attracted to him. Now when I first started this process, I wasn't sure how I felt about the divorce papers I was served.<P>Once I felt these feelings I have for another man (just an extreme curiousity, not love or anything heavy) I knew my marriage was over. I have never cheated and was extremely devoted. I read the horror stories of the years of Plan A and Plan B and I did try, but quite honestly, I spent 10 years already on someone who walked out, he doesn't deserve another minute of my time. <P>When I talk to him now, the tables are turned. H is really nice, always asking me if I am ok, I think HE is having his own doubts now. I could care less. Now that I can see past the hurt, I can see he really abused me mentally something awful.<P>I can't say I will never go back. But a few weeks ago, I said I would always go back. I believe in marriage forever, I really do BUT in all fairness, once as much has been done to me, as I have endured, the marriage was OVER. I am not committing myself to someone who is sleeping around. I feel no guilt for what I am doing because like I said, the marriage is over. H knows I feel this way, let me tell you he has been nicer than ever lately. When I say what I am doing, please don't take it in a sexual way, I am just casually in all this. Nothing sexual.<P>I am not doing it to play a game on him, I am doing it to feel human again. I probably will never be married to H again (we are in divorce process as he served me ). And Thank God I feel the way I do because I was suicidal and severly depressed. <P>I just hope the people reading this out there remain neutral and don't judge. Some might say 2 wrongs don't make a right, but in all fairness, not everything in life deserves a second chance either. I am going on with my life and H can deal with me and my life if he wants or he can ignore it. I really don't care. I imagine, he will come around in a year or so (this happened before) and want to be together. whether this happens or not, I don't care anymore. I know if he started wanting the marriage, then I would be confused and it would be in my hands. I don't want that burden right now.<P>Lastly, this Plan A and Plan B is a good plan. There are a lot of success stories with it, but along with the success, comes months or years of personal neglect, loss of self esteem and being treated terrible. I am a strong independent woman and I can take care of myself. I refuse to sacrifice my happiness ever again. I did it for ten years in a marriage. Now I am putting myself first.<P>In your own situation, I don't think you are ready to even think about seeing other people just yet. But we are all different. We all have a different amount of strength to deal with things. I don't think I am wrong here as I knew my marriage was over.<P>I stay on this forum, so I can learn all this in case I am ever married again, and I am watching for more success stories. Lately, we are all getting served divorce papers though.<P>Good luck, and you can email me private at MrsDMBrown@mail.com if you like.<P>Remember to those who don't believe in what I have done, to be civil about it. There has been a lot of insults lately on the forum. No one deserves hurt feelings, we all suffer. Those who know me, know I suffered tremendously. One day I just woke up and said, I can't believe I am allowing ANYONE, to treat me this poorly, much less someone I took care of for ten years. At least I can say I tried my hardest to save the marriage, I suffered, I endured a lot, and he threw it in my face. I have no regrets right now. I feel better than I have in years, I like my freedom, my independence, and I like who I am right now. That feels a lot better than being last choice right now.<P>Good luck and Prayers are with you. Dana<BR>

Hi Crushed, and you too LonelyMom,<P>Oh boy, do I relate to what you are both saying. In every way.<P>I am too confused right now to say anything meaningful. I also haven't really sifted through all my jumbled feelings and emotions. I have just posted 'going back to Plan B' - that is an indication of where I am at.<P>Crushed, we all need to do what we feel is right for us. As long as we are not hurting anyone else. I will support you 100% in that.<P>LonelyMom, I think I posted to you earlier, you take care. And give those children an extra tight squeeze today!!!!!<P>I will try and post again, when I have a bit more clarity. No, I have not been drinking, but I feel as tho this time I really am saying goodbye to my H, and my marriage. And that hurts.<P>love and hugs to you both<P>Jo

Bonnet - Do what you can today to gain some strength. It is hard to send words of encouragement when you are numb, I went through it last week. Take a bath, paint your nails, read a good book (not about marraige), put on your best clothes and makeup and go out and just smile at people. It will lift you up. I think your attitude reflects in a big way. Lately, I have been looking my best (even though I feel bad sometimes), and I go out, and the men always smile at me, even come up and talk to me. Obviously, I am portraying a different person that some sad depressed person roaming around. It feels great. <P>Crushed - I was checking in to see if you replied, will check back later. You also, take care of yourself, pamper yourself and treat yourself special. I don't care how bad finances are, or anything, get a nice face mask, bubble bath and treat yourself like the queen you are. I found that lately, the better I take care of myself, the better I feel.<P>Let me know how you are doing. Dana<BR>

Crushed...<BR>How long have you been married?<BR>Most marriages have problems between years 7-10. <BR>If you are married longer than that, marriage problems or the monotony of poor communication doesn't surface as quickly because...both spouses were too tired, overworked, or focused so intensely on their children that they were unable to see what was taking place in their marriage. Many of the longer marriages find spouses "living single, but married".<P>Marriage is work. Marriage is learning who you are and who your spouse is and dealing with the changes that occur over time.<P>Leaving a marriage is an escape from your SELF or NOT being strong enough to learn how to be married...keep the sparks flying through ALL those years. ALL marriages go through ups and downs...they get stale unless tended too. Pick one marriage that may appear to be perfect to you and ask them...<P>I'm sorry, but since I've found out about my H's A... (I hate even saying the word)I've really dug in and talked to, read, and gone on marraige retreats to only hear the same things I am repeating to you above.<BR>Even before that, I didn't want to end up like my parents...divorced. But what I found out was...it takes two to understand what makes a marriage work. Two people communicating properly.<P>I never had communication courses in college. Our premarital counseling only touched the surface...I don't think this is something any of us can say we learned how to do properly. We hadn't been taught.<P>My parents were divorced and remarried. I witnessed them go through the same "s" with their new spouses that they went through with each other. The only diffence in why they are still married to their new spouses is that they made a committment to stay together and try. It certainly hasn't been easy...they hadn't any examples...and they didn't have the resources we now have today.<P>Finding someone else will only delay things...and possibly make things worse. Have you written a letter to your H explaining your feelings..without the "you should...and I feel this because you did that..." When I wrote that letter to my H it really got his attention.<P>As I've written to you before...Retrouvaille really helped us learn how to communicate. It wasn't cake walk...I almost lost it myself (which is unbelievable if you really knew me)...but no matter how you educate yourself in Communication...it is the only salvation. I honestly believed that if I got through Retrouvaille and really understood our issues...could I make a sound decision on whether to tough it out or not with my marriage.<P>And yes, I agree with you...it is Too early to go through a new ceremony and make vows. Geesh...you still feel taken for granted. That's why you need some answers. <P>When you wrote previously about your pain...I was wondering if your counselor identified any depression...have you just delivered a baby...postpartum depression? (I didn't do a history search...) Anyway, don't feel afraid to discuss that with your counselor. After all you've experienced...I don't see how most of us wouldn't be diagnosed with some form of depression. I just wish more people would want to help themselves by identifying it early enough and getting treatment. (like you would take an antibiotic for a sinus infection)<P>Give yourself a "BIG HUG" today.

OK, I guess I need to clarify myself a little. . . <P>Repenting -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Empty Shell is a bit harsh with her words<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Harsh?? No, I don't think so. Blunt. . . To the point . . . No flowery speaches . . . <B>YES</B>This is after all <B>Marriage Builders</B><P>There are in fact times when the betrayed spouse ends up having an affair after discovery. It happens. But to come here and basically ask for permission to go out because you were betrayed . . .I'm sorry, that is wrong.<P>If I lived by this type of logic, I would be perfectly justified in going out and having an affair on my W just because she did it to me first.<P>That is wrong.<P>I do like your response here Repenting. You explained yourself very well. Congratulations. BTW, In case you haven't guessed. . .You got my gender wrong. I am definitely male.<P>lonelymom -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Some might say 2 wrongs don't make a right, but in all fairness, not everything in life deserves a second chance either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You and I discussed this a while ago when we talked about "wanting to see what it was like."<P>I basically said the same thing to you then that I am saying to Crushed. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right. I agree with you though when you say that not everything deserves a second chance. You are completely correct here. If that is the way things are, then "you" (not pointing fingers here) should file for divorce, or sign the divorce papers, etc BEFORE you become involved with someone/anyone else. If "you" (again, I am trying to generalize, not point fingers)do not follow this course of action, then "you" are just as guilty of infidelity as the spouse who first had the affair.<P>My point here ladies and gentlemen, is that all of us who have been the betrayed have felt this way at one time or another. Were it not for our love of our spouse and our family; were it not for the belief we hold in our commitment to marriage, we might all turn to a path we obviously don't want, or we wouldn't be on this forum.<P>In it's simplest form . . . How many of us have told our children, our nieces, our nephews or our grand children . . . If so and so jumped off a cliff . . . Would you jump after them?<P>I'm sorry if I sound so poointed in my comments, but we ALL need to stop and think about the ramifications of our actions BEFORE we take action.<P>God Bless<P>

Shwuuuuu! Good thing I have tough skin. I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, maybe I need to explain myself a little better. Yes I beleive marriage is a covenant, I also beleive it is a contract and it is a legal matter. I disagree that a covenant is not dependent on the other party, but that is all semantics. What I mean is that once a vow is broken it is null and void. I am no longer bound to it. My counsoler even states this, I am not obligated to keep my end of the bargin when there is betrayal, especially adultry. That's why this is so painful, the whole commitment thing I thought we had is broken. I didn't want any of this, I don't want to start over, I thought I was going to live happily ever after. Well I found out were not in Kanas anymore. I just want to know if I want to be married to him anymore, sorry but I don't have this undying love that keeps me there no matter what, he really took alot from me, I've lost so much that can't be replaced no matter how repentive he is. I know I have to forgive him and I am trying, I just see it as two different things, forgiveness is one thing and staying is another. I don't know if I love him enough for this, I don't know if I will ever be the same, with or without him. So I don't know if I should see what else life has for me. I don't think it would be wrong for me to date, as I would not do it without his knowledge and I also feel I am no longer married, yes legally I am, but the spirit is gone. I really don't feel I'm ready for this, but my question was, will this help me figure out my life? I did not write for your permission....please, I am 37 years old, married for 15 ,been with him 20...I think I know a little about marriage...I did my part with love and support. That's why this is so painful to me, I gave him my best and what is my reward? I wasn't perfect, but I didn't deserve to be treated like this and he would be the first one to tell you that.<P>I want to want to try, is that so hard to understand? Maybe I just need to heal myself first, I keep thinking about that. I did look into the Retrouvaille weekends, and h wants to go, I think I will try it, it sounds like you found your answers there. So I think I will find out what I want for my marriage and life before I go start a new one. I hope the weekend brings me some answers. Thanks for your support (those of you who supported me) and I do appreciate your honesty.<P>To Repenting...thanks for sharing, my h at one time thought it might have been an addiction, no he's not so sure, the counselor doesn't think it played a big part. He feels, like you, his past played a big part. He has said himself he was running from his problems, in the worst direction he could have gone, but that was part of it. I have two episodes of clinical depression during this time (that's when he started) I came out of it with a new out look and I think it scared him. I didn't keep my feelings in and I confronted him with my suspisions and he just used my illness as a cover. Saying I needed help, my meds were off, blah blah, that was so low I can't even fathom that he did that to me. All because he was too scared to admit he was wrong, it was easier to blame me at the time. He needs alot of therapy, he did have a hourendous childhood, but at the same time he has said himself that now he is a man and he needs to take responsibility for his reactions to his past, not blame it. He did go to SA meetings for a while and learned alot, but I wasn't convinced in his case....but it didn't hurt, as a matter of fact our Dr suggested he start a 12 step for men who have cheated. I don't know if he will but I think that is a real need. I went thru a similar 12 step thing after my depressions. I have the Life Recovery Bible and it is based alot on the 12 step approach.<BR>Thanks for your honesty, I know how difficult addictions are, I've been surrounded with them my whole life and wondered about my own drug and acholol abuse as a young person. I don't do anything like that know, but I understand the seduction.<P>So anyway guys, even though I don't necessarily agree with all your thoughts, I don't think I will date, I realize I need to work on me and the whole healing process needs to be attended to. Ironically my h gave me a large gift certificate to the Toppers Spa in the area for Christmas, it's time I broke it out, huh?<P>I thank you all again,<BR>Me<BR>