Hi everyone,<P>I think this time I mean it. Plan B it is.<P>I spoke to him on the ph tonight, he was at OW #2's house, and just about to go to the gym. Bear in mind he has just had 3 days off work due to some diabolical illness......<BR>ie, the flu !!!!!<P>Once he said he was at #2's house, I couldn't help myself. I didn't get narky, or angry, but I did ask questions. Stupid me.<P>As you all know, the children have just spent the weekend with their father (at my considerable expense) and eldest d told me that daddy had introduced #2 as his girlfriend, and that she (#2) had stayed over, but slept on the couch. This is what I questioned him on. Yes, she did stay over, on the couch, but no, he did not introduce her as his girlfriend. I told him there was no need to lie any longer, he would get no 'trouble' from me in regards to #2. This girl had nothing to do with the breakup of my marriage. I told him I was so sick of the lies, that there was no need for them to be continuing. HE DOES NOT HAVE TO LIE ANY LONGER.<P>He said he wasn't lying, she wasn't his girlfriend, and then said "well, not at this stage anyway..."<P>Those last 6 words clinched it. I have had enough. He has made it so clear, crystal clear in fact, that he does not want a wife or a family.<P>I now need to ring Telecom and find out about caller ID. Last time I tried Plan B, I fell off the wagon so many times, as he wouldn't call at the arranged times, and I don't have caller ID. Every time I heard his voice,....well, we've all been there...<P>Well this time bucko, I will have caller ID....<BR>Put that in your pipe and smoke it.....<P>I know what the principals are here, but I question myself on the following:<P>1. do I want to be married to him<BR>2. will he change with regards to being a CA and a poor communicator if we get past the affair<BR>3. if we get past the affair, and put the marriage back together, do I want to go back to him, the way he was, ie, CA & poor communicator<BR>4. do I want to be married to him<P>maybe 2 and 3 should be swapped around !!!!!!<P>I know Medic has basically questioned the same sorts of things in previous posts and threads, your input here Medic would be great.<P>I feel as tho I am letting everyone here down, by not fighting for my marriage. I just find it so damn hard to fight for something so important, on my own. That in itself (the fight) would probably be OK, if there was something, anything, coming back my way. But there's not. <P>Yes, he told me I looked beautiful, yes he told me he missed me, but I think they are words that came from his mouth, and he doesn't even know he said them. I think he says what he THINKS I want to hear.<P>He has an appt. with a GP tomorrow, (Thurs) to get a referral to see 'someone'. I don't know if that is a psychologist or a counsellor. Maybe with that, and with me completely out of the picture, he can come back to reality, to where the rest of us live.<P>Either way, I don't think I care anymore. I had those tears again tonight, and the feelings of 'why doesn't he want me' and I can't do that again. Is every succeeding girlfriend going to do this to me. I need to get some sanity back into my own life again, and stop letting him hurt me this way. I need that power back again, the power to control my own life. Where did that go? I thought I had found it, and there was no way I was letting go of it. What has happened to me.? Oh boy, that slow spin is starting again.......<P>I would really appreciate your input here, it means so much.<P>Can I have the pitty pot too.....<P>Jo<P>

have to go to bed now.....<P>see you all in the morning<P>love Jo

Jo,<P>Plan A is hard...<BR>Plan B is hard...<P>It really sounds like you are on the fringes of losing it(your love) all very soon. That is definitely the time for Plan B.<P>Go for it now... it sounds like it will be easier. Yes... rewrite the Plan B letter one more time. And this time... make it stick!<P>Thanks for being so supportive of me and my problems... <P>Prayers for you... <P>Jim

Hi Bonnet,<P> I can understand how you feel...Don't even worry about"do you want to be married to him?"...time will give you that answer and if you decide "no" you will be completely confident of your decision. <P>Your H is definitely in lala land....mine was too, but if they were good guys before they can come out of it...mine did. It's amazing to me that my H is back to the loving , kind person I used to know. If they were like that before, it is in them deep down. Go to Plan B and take your time on any decisions.,wishing you the best......LU

Bonnet<P>Don't worry about letting anyone down. You have to be able to live with yourself. Everyone will support you no matter what you do. I don't know about the forum, because I haven't seen a lot of people lately giving up for good on their marriage, but I can speak for my friends and family, they are very happy. Don't get me wrong, they wanted it to work, and supported me when I tried. But they see the "old Dana" coming back now. The strong independent one, that was around before H. <P>I think all betrayers, are sweet talkers. Tell you they love you, that your beautiful, my H still does it and I just let it go in one ear and out the other. Yes I think about him often, I miss the old H, I miss my old life, but my pity party is over I am not going to sit around and wait.<P>I had and still have all those same feelings as you. I couldn't answer them until I broke free. I am not on Plan B. I did Plan A. My H is such a jerk I think I got results from him mistreating me that you are supposed to get in Plan B (when you start to fall out of love and go on happily).<P>Be strong, and do what you feel comfortable with. I know I am here to support you if you "give up" on your marriage. Some marriages can not be saved. I agree, abuse is one, everyone talks about physical abuse, but what I suffered, and honestly a lot of us are suffering is extreme mental abuse. <P>I have been feeling much better since I gave up. There is a weight lifted from my shoulders. No longer is this marraige, its success and failures all in my hands. I tried, I did my best, now I can move along and not have as many regrets. <P>Good luck, and keep in touch with me! Dana<BR>

Hi NSR & Lu,<P>thanks for responding.<P>Went to bed, but couldn't sleep, so here I am again !!!<P>hope you're feeling better Jim. I thought of you all day today, and then read your post where the court case has been adjourned. I'm glad for you, as that is what you've said you want.<BR>I feel very differently about Plan B this time, I feel as tho I can do it properly, with 100% effort and dedication. You're right, I've lost that lovin' feeling.....<P>take care of you, extra good care at the moment<P>love and hugs<P>Jo

Hi Dana,<P>I don't know how I missed your post. Sorry about that. I still need to enrol in Computers 101 - for the 3rd time !!!!!<P>Thank you for your words of support. They mean a lot. And I agree. How much do we have to take here. These people, supposedly the people who love us the most in the world, are abusing us. They are abusing our love, our trust, our friendship, our everything. Please don't get me wrong here, my H never ever was abusive, either physically or mentally, but god, is he making up for it now.<P>That is why I have come to this decision. How he could be so blase about whether this OW#2 is 'going' to be his girlfriend - to his wife - is completely beyond me.<P>I do not want anything to do with him at all. I won't ever cut his contact with the children, as he loves them and they him, however, I do not want to speak to him at all.<P>I am going to find a lawyer tomorrow morning, to ascertain where I stand in the final things we need to discuss - re property settlement. Maybe my lawyer can speak to his lawyer !!!!! I know nobody but the lawyers win at this point, however, I don't really care anymore.<P>For so long, I have tried to keep the communication channels open, and extended the hand of friendship - all he did was keep pooing in it.<P>Thanks for being with me tonight, I have to go to bed now. It's 1245am here, and that is about 4 late nights in a row. I'm not good with late nights any more !!!!!!!!!!<P>take care of you, and we'll speak in the morning<P>Jo

Hey Bonnet,<P>Sorry to hear of your current situation. It is said that "they" are in in Fantasy Land right now, the betrayers park that never closes. We, the betrayed are also in a different world. I am not myself either lately. I yelled at the cat for eating too loud. <P>I don't think that you should answer the following questions at this point in time.<P>1. do I want to be married to him<BR>2. will he change with regards to being a CA and a poor communicator if we get past the affair<BR>3. if we get past the affair, and put the marriage back together, do I want to go back to him, the way he was, ie, CA & poor communicator<BR>4. do I want to be married to him<P><BR>I was/am in Plan B. Got two cards from Val that suggested she didn't know what to do. Showed what I believed to be interest in the marriage. I sent a nice card in return, she called and I thought things might start to turn around. Silly me!<P>It sounded like her, the handwriting looked like hers. The actions were not. The girl I married 5 years ago would never hurt me like this, ever!<P>TNT makes a good arguement about the confusion Val is experiencing. My heart believes that. Of course, Max, brings up some very good points as well. That Val knows exactly what she is doing and playing games with me holding on but not too tight. My head believes that.<P>So now what. I think we should take care of us. I don't believe anything that I see or hear from her. Actions speak louder than words. If she was interested in us she would not have been at Brians house on Sunday.<P>If and when she wakes up I will be more than happy to consider reconsiliation. Up to that point I am living my life. I feel that we waste too much time thinking of what we did to deserve this and why did they do this. The way I figure she owes me about 7 months in pain and suffering.<P>She called me yesterday. We were on the "floor" at the hospital with a patient. We were supposed to meet to talk. I told her I was tied up and couldn't talk now. She wanted to know what I wanted to chat about with her. I said never mind maybe some other time. She tried to engage in conversation and I said talk to ya later. I know she is hurting, I heard it in her voice. That you can't fake. I don't know where exactly I was going with this.<P>Oh, yeah, Back to Plan B for me as well. This time cards and calls will go unanwered. It hurts me to do this, but, in the end it will all be worth it. No matter how it turns out.<P>Hope my babbling helps.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Tim

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jo}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Yes I have to agree it's time for plan-b...<BR>Write a letter...<BR>Use the ideas from other letters written...<BR>If you are loving your love to a point that reconciliation is hopeless, make no evcusses for yourself...<BR>I believe you have done your part, now take time for you that's what plan-b is for...<BR>Hang in there, you're going to come out of this a grateful better person...you already are...<P>Love Ya,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Hi Medic,<P>well, its only 9am here, and I'm already exhausted. I had 2 little wriggle worms in bed with me last night, coupled with my current emotional state - not a pretty sight this morning !!!!!!!<P>You're right about one thing, actions do speak louder than words. His actions are reprehensible. He still takes, takes and takes, and gives nothing in return. I'm not giving any more. I want to give everything I have to my children, they have been sort of neglected lately. Mummy hasn't been taking them out very much, or doing very much with them. Now is the time that I make up for that.<P>Just a question for you. If ever Val comes out of this, how are you going to ask her or you both, to deal with the CA issue, and the poor communication issue. I have given a great deal of thought to this, where my H is concerned, and I just don't know if he will ever change. That is the part that scares me. He comes out of this, but we end up exactly where we are now, but in 5 years time...... because of the CA and lack of communication issues.<BR>Thanks Jo<P><BR>WilliamJ,<P>thank you so much. I wanted to post to you last night about being on Plan B, but I was so tired. How are you going?<BR>Thanks for your support, you always say the right words to make me feel beetter<P>big hugs to you, and take care of you<P>Jo

Jo,<P>Wanted to respond to you this morning but had to go to work. Everyone tells me to not make any major decision right now. Of course do I listen nooo, but you should. One question why the hurry for the divorce? Go ahead see the lawyer find out information. Then take a step back. Go into plan B no contact!! Then go ahead do the things you want to do. You don't need a paper to tell you what you can do. THen in a month or two or three or what ever if you feel that you really no long go back and forth on your feelings toward H then that is the time to go ahed with the divorce. But he has hurt you again, so you are angry and hurt. That is not time to make a decision. Take the break. Again theat little paper is not going to make you feel any different. It is not going to make the hurt go away. <P>You also said he is supposedly going to counseling why not see where that leads. <P>Use the time to be with your children and make your self feel better about you. Once you have done this then you will no longer seesaw back and forth about wheter to get a divorce or not.<P>I think you need this time to really be sure. I think you might be acting aout of hurt and anger and my regret your actions at this point. I am not saying it is right or wrong. I see the emotional state you are in and because I am there I know that I can't make any decisions about my H until my life is stable. Maybe you need to do the same thing.<BR>{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Hey Bonnet,<P>I just got the book Torn Asunder yesterday. We had a trip from Philly and that gave me an hour and a half to do some reading. No, I wasn't driving, silly.<P>I got through pretty much of it and gained some new insight. Sunday was bad for me, but, I did it to myself.<P>Emotions took over and I cleaned house. I was slightly more than irritated. I took all her pictures down, pulled the one out of my wallet, took all the photo albums and my wedding rings up in the attic.<P>I realized today that she is very confused. She doesn't want a divorce. She does love me and wants to come back to a great H and life. I have wasted too much time writing letters and sending cards telling her how much I've changed and how wonderful it could be.<P>Yes, wasted time. I should have been showing her the new man I am instead of promoting an extensive PR excercise. I gain ground and then my big mouth asks questions or pushes her to come back.<P>If she calls I will be sweet as pie. Hey, it's just another friend calling. No more pushing, yes that will be hard, but, if I want her back in my life I will have to do it.<P>Yeah, everything came back down from the attic. Boy, am I a [censored] or what?<P>I haven't figured out the CA or communication steps yet. I'll get back to ya. <P>Tim<BR>

Hi Di,<P>yep, you're right, it's the hurt and anger again. When, oh when, will I learn this patience 'thing' ??????? He apparently has his Dr's appt. tonight - in the old town we used to live in (before the move to Sydney). I find that quite strange. Why would he travel all that way, just to get a referral, when he could get the referral anywhere. Another lie, but why?? I must admit to feelings of curiosity about that one. I guess time will tell.<P>I have made it through my first day of Plan B - (mark ii), and it still feels the right decision. I don't want any further contact with him. Every ph conversation we had meant just a little more hurt, in some way. It may be the tone of voice, what he says, whatever, but there is always hurt. No more.<P>Thanks for being with me, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for gently reminding me (as Lostva also does) about hurt, anger, immediate action etc etc etc and how we shouldn't do anything under those conditions.<P>Medic - glad you weren't driving, but what's the matter with you???? I can put makeup on, feed the kids their breakfast, talk on the mobile, AND drive at the same time. But then again, I'm a woman, and we can do 10 things at once....... !!!!!!!!! Did I tell you about my last car accident... joke joyce !!!!<P>Your wit constantly amazes me, and makes me laugh (or at least chortle)<P>I'm glad you took the photos back down, although mine haven't seen the light of day since I left Melb. I just can't have him around, when he's not here. Does that make sense. My eldest D has a photo of Daddy in her bedroom, but I can honestly say I never look at it. Just seem to be able to avoid it.<BR>OH MY GOD, am I turning into a conflict avoider. Would that not be the last straw!!!<BR>It will be interesting to see if he does get counselling, from tonights referral. And what he tells the counsellor/psychologist the problems are..... Would love to be a fly on the wall there.<P>Thanks for responding,<BR>take care of you, and big hugs to you<BR>Jo

Hi Jo,<P>I've been thinking about you. I didn't see where you wrote the Plan B letter to him. Or, did I miss that? I think that's important because it firmly sets your limits and tells him that you are serious about standing your ground.<P>Please hang in there. I know how really, really hard all of this is. Once you settle into Plan B, you can begin to focus on just you and the girls. It does get easier when you get off the rollercoaster. Your strength will begin to return & you will have a chance to rationally think about whether you really want to continue the relationship. It will also give him time to really see what it's like to not have you in his life at all. It would be a good idea to have a consultation with an attorney but only as a fact finding mission right now. Usually the first visit is complementary, & you would get it out of the way if you do decide to move forward.<P>The way I looked at it, at the time, was my H was very unhappy with himself and life in general. So, I let him go off and be unhappy by himself. He was bringing me down with him. I found that I did not really need him in order to have a happy life. I wanted to share my life with him, but I didn't absolutely NEED him. I really did learn a great deal about myself, while we have been separated.<P>

Hi Sidney,<P>thanks for thinking about me.<P>He is very unhappy with himself right now. He had an appt. last night with a Dr to get a referral to a counsellor/psychologist. I don't know how that went.<P>I was speaking to BIL last night and he said some things that I didn't know. (Bear in mind, I still don't know what happened to my marriage. He has never offered one explanation to answer my questions. I still firmly believe we needed time together, and that's most of what the problem was.)<BR>Anyway, my BIl said that there were some issues he was going through, such as 'men's things'..... What the hell does that mean. He went on to say the following issues<BR>self esteem<BR>sexuality??? We NEVER had a problem there<BR>self worth<BR>work issues<BR>who was he<BR>etc etc etc<P>I had never heard mention of these things.<BR>I know he has low self esteem, work was a big issue for him, especially when he got the sack (Unfairly & now in the courts) but sexuality?? We always had a good sex life, even adventurous sometimes (sorry, infomation overload!!!!), he is saying he might be gay??? I wouldn't care, at least it would explain his complete personality change. I'm very good friends with 2 gay guys, so that would not be an issue with me.<P>I haven't written the letter yet, I'll try and do it this weekend. I have had a fairly busy week, with study and all, but I will do it. I still have a copy of the first one, which was beautiful. Bits and pieces taken from here and there (WilliamJ I think mostly!!!!!!)<P>I wanted to see the lawyer about such things as the court case 'win', and his superannuation. I don't know where I stand there, however, I do know I stand somewhere!<P>We can't appy for divorce over here until we have been separated one year and one day. Don't know the significance of the one day bit, however, that date for me is Aug. 16 this year. I really just needed to know where I stand with these last 2 financial issues. We have done the property settlement already, and I have no arguments there.<P>Thanks for caring about me.<P>love and hugs to you<P>Jo

So he is trying to prove he isn't gay!!!LOL<P>How old is he? I think sometimes it is like they have to prove that they can still attract the opposite sex. They want to fel attractive? They still got it? Maybe that is what is meant by the sexuality? I think it had a lot to do with my H. <P>You are doing good. Take one day at a time. That is all you can do. And yes it is easier not to hear their voice.<P>I figure that even though I am still in plan A that my H has started plan b ing me again. After the horrible Sunday birthday party, I doubt that I will hear from him again for a very long time. That is okay. It makes my life easier to deal with and keeps me from getting my hopes up.<P>We will mkae it. One more day at work then Saturday I will move. It will be hard but like something will stay paceked away. <P>To both of us new lives!!!! We can do it!!!!<P>------------------<BR>di<P>