Student,<BR>In Jill's update post you refered to one of Harley's books (i think). Specifically a quote that suggested that marriages with no children rarley overcome infidelity. I have read some of Harley's books but it has been quite awhile. I would appreciate it if you could tell me where to find it. I don't doubt you it is just that it caught my attention and I would like to read it.<BR>Thank You.

It may be in one of his books, but that is not where I read it. I'm pretty sure I read it in one of his posted articles, or in the newsletter he sends out every month. I read it a long time ago, maybe a year or so. The reason why it stuck in my brain is because my ex and I had no children, and we are now a "statistic". Lots of people had quoted Harley's success with marriages, but then to read the dismal statistics for those without children kind of flew in the face of everything else I'd read about his success. It makes sense to me though. Wish I knew that before I confessed....

TheStudent,<P>I would not doubt the statistic because using Harley's method is very hard. If their no children, then it may seem easier to let go since the couple just split assets and moves on. Seems pretty cold, but I would bet that few of the couples without children really try very hard. <P>There are at least half a dozen here who have made it. LoneStar being one of the current posters here.<P>The bottom line is that this is tough stuff to get over even if both spouses really want to. Even harder if only one does, as you well know.<P>Just some thoughts.<P>JL<P>

Count us in too!!<P>We have no children and hit the 1yr mark since discovery yesterday. <P>Our relationship has never been better. It is even better now than when we were dating!!<P>It is alot of work but if willing it is worth it!!

Hi JL,<BR>Thanks for backing me up. My ex once said that my infidelity would not have happened if we had kids. Funny, cause just about everyone on this website has kids. <P>I guess it is human nature to take the path of least resistance. <P>My ex called Saturday. I'm pretty happy to report I didn't feel much of anything. Looks like I've turned the corner...<P>Thanks for hangin' with me. I know I'm pretty rough around the edges and get on alot of people's nerves here.<P>dj,<BR>do you have kids?

Hello everyone,<P>I haven't posted in awhile but I still read posts here and there. <P>I had to just reply to this post because I was unware of this statistic until it was mentioned. Needless to say, it was very depressing. I am married 8 1/2 years with no children, my affair has been over for 8 months, and husband does not know. I struggle with this and this statistic is very upsetting to me.

Hummingbird,<BR>On another thread, it was debated that Harley ever said this because he/she hadn't read it themselves. I wish I could find where I read it, and if I had more time maybe I'd do a thorough investigation. Even though it was some time ago, I'm 99.99% positive I read it from one of the sources I listed above. I think the person was objecting to my using the statistic to somehow scare someone into not confessing. Except that I think the statistic is valid, and that someone needs to know the facts and understand all the possible outcomes before making a decision to confess or not. <P>You said your husband does not know. If you've read my posts to other people, I have often encouraged those (especially those without children) not to confess if the affair is over and the betrayer has taken active steps to figure out why they did it and make sure it doesn't happen again. You may come to the conclusion that you would rather be divorced than keep a secret like that. That is your choice. <P>I think coming to this website gives some people a false sense of hope that things will work out for them if they confess because so many here are trying. Take a good look though. The vast majority are female betrayed and with children. In reality, the fact that you are a female betrayer and without children has more bearing on whether you will end up divorced than whether or not you use Harley's methods. I confessed before I found MB, so I can't blame the advice given here. However, being older and wiser now, I come here to provide a different outlook.<P>I do think that kids tend to cement an otherwise shaky relationship and help carry people through the hard times. Obviously, it doesn't offer any guarantee against infidelity or abandonment. However, they do provide a strong incentive for people to work on their problems because they know they will continue to have to deal with the other person regardless of a divorce.

Student:<P>Your honesty and confession had nothing to do with your marriage not working out and your divorce. Nothing.<P>You do realize that, don't you? <P>

K,<BR>I think you are great, but I have to disagree, for now at least. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future. I'm convinced that if I never confessed, we'd still be married. Who knows for how long? Even if we did divorce eventually, it certainly would have been under different circumstances and on a lot more level playing field than my confession allowed. So, you'll see I'm pretty much stuck with choice #3 (see below). Choice #2 is not real attractive.<P>Let's see, here are (were) my options:<BR>1) Don't confess. Live a marriage that is maybe less than 100% honest and intimate and deal with that.<P>2) Get divorced. Subject myself to the dating scene and a whole host of physical and emotional danger in the form of STD's, rape, or just plain old head games people play when dating. THEN, even if I do find someone I like, I'm supposed to tell them the gory history of my life and live with whatever fears they have too, that is if they don't dump me first after I've invested however much time with them. See Choice #1...<P>3) Be celibate for life. <P>Hey! I think I'll take #1!! Wow, what a revelation!!

My spouse and I do NOT have any children together but, he had a child with the OW.<BR> <BR>For some reason I cannot explain, we are together, in recovery and working this out. I must admit this both scares and confuses me because statistically speaking, not only are we against the odds but the unspeakable burden of the OC weighing on us should annihilate the marriage completely. Why this is working out in spite of these incredible obstacles is beyond me. <P>My spouse is very much like he was when we first met, courted and the early years of our marriage. His efforts to restore are very gratifying. Neither one of us want to be without the other.<P>Either we are both extremely insecure or very much in love. I'd like to think it is the latter,however, we could be kidding ourselves.

Dear Student,<P>I have been in counseling since September and me and my husband have gone to counseling together for a couple of months now. I think it's helped to have a sounding board, someone to talk too but I know that 99% of the work has to come from me and my husband. If we're given all the tools and then don't use them, who can I blame.<P>I have gone threw emotional hell, I was involved in an emotional affair for 2 years before it briefly became physical and then ended. <P>I have taken many steps backwards and I feel I'm finally at a point where I really want my marriage to work, I see progress although it is baby steps. I'm still in the hell of withdrawal, even though it's not as bad as it first was, I still suffer symptoms of it. Sometimes I feel it will always stay with me. <P>As of today, things are better at home while I realize that some people feel that my marriage is based on a lie and don't understand how I can hide such a horrible thing, I truly feel it's the only way I can hold onto my marriage. <P>If I tell my husband, I know he will leave me, we have spoken of the subject in counseling together and he has made it very clear, if he knew that I ever had an affair, it would be over, he would never trust me again and he would leave. <P>He has has a bad tempter and I'm afraid of his retaliation and therefore causing more damage to our marriage, making it unrepairable. <P>I do love him and I'm so sorry I had the affair and if I could erase it I would. <BR>

Student,<BR>We have no children together,however I do have 2 from a previous marriage. They do not live with us.<BR>We have been in recovery for 17 months now and I thought I had read everything that Harley had written. I guess I am glad that that part didn't catch my attention, as it probably would have discouraged me more than I already was.<BR>I too feel the honesty approach is the best even if it does not always lead to reconcilliation. I have also thought in the past that if we did have children perhaps my W would not have had an affair.

Must come back into this.<P>I don't know where TS read that statistic, but it does make sense doesn't it? However, be careful. What that statistic may mean is that couples without children, refuse to work on reestablishing the marriage more than those with children. <P>However, if the couple does decide to work on the marriage, I would GUESS that they actually may have a better chance. Why would I make such a conjecture? Because as much as I love my children, they get in the way of romance, time together, talking, and just being together. <P>So before all of the childless couples panic here, just think for a moment. When you decided to work on the marriage you have fewer distractions than the couple with children. Heck, you can even take a vacation together Something my wife haven't done in a long long time.<P>Just some thoughts.<P>JL<P>PS. Glad to hear from you again Hummingbird. Also glad to see still hanging in there. Recall Harley's estimate that it take two years to recover from an affair. You are doing well. I'll bet Jill's posts have been very interesting to you as well. Keep in touch.

<BR>JL,<P>Addressing the phantom "childless couples" statistic once again. Lets assume for the moment that its true.<P>Many people wait a few years before they have children, so childless couples are also probably younger, on average. Rather than argue that children cement a marriage (a viable hypothesis, btw), it could be that people in shorter-term marriages feel that they have less to lose in divorce, and would fare better in the dating market, by simply starting over.<P>TS, <P>I think your view stems from a desire to maintain control over bad things that might happen to you. You confessed, and it blew up in your face. You're erroneously blaming the confession, when the causality of your misfortune lies at the feet of your husband. Morally speaking, refusing to confess is a violation of what's called informed consent. Informed consent is ultimately the reason I think total honesty is appropriate in marriage. Your spouse deserves the right to leave you if betray him or her. Exposing yourself to that risk, as a betrayer, is an ethical obligation. What your husband did in mistreating you was wrong, of course, but he had every right to divorce you.<P>When you remarry, TS, would you confess again if you had an affair? Would you confess if your husband told you unequivocally that he'd want to know if an affair ever happened? Just curious.<P>Bystander<BR>--<BR>PS - Hi Catnip!

Student:<P>You said on Jill's thread...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>K, I love you to death. You are absolutely one of my favorite people here. There are very few people here whose opinion I respect as much as yours. Honest!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I'm a big fan of yours too. In fact, I'm sure if I were single, that I'd be very interested in dating you. And I have had the priviledge of knowing you for the entire time you've been here. I hate to see you stuck in your current phase, because I have great belief that you will eventually move through this and much happier. And then, when you're not so worried about the issues of marrying #3---along he'll come.<P>To your past. If I remember correctly (and I may be off---my brain has been scrambled as of late)---you had an affair. You were VERY UNHAPPY with your husband. And it seemed that no matter what you did, it didn't help. You weren't in a great marriage with a tremendous husband, and had some one-night stand while you were drunk.<P>People often have affairs for reasons. Some of those reasons have to do with spousal behavior. Without getting help from your spouse in addressing the issues, you are at risk for repeating the pattern, over and over (and this happens all the time). I truly don't think you could have saved your marriage by yourself without using honesty. There's no way. By using honesty, you came to your husband in the most loving way possible to try to save and rebuild your marriage.<P>And he stomped on you. Even through all your efforts.<P>It's not because of the honesty that you showed that he did it. It's not even because of the affair that he did it. It's because of his immaturity, his inability to accept his role in the failure, and his selfish, narcissistic attitudes that this marriage failed.<P>And in my best Regis Philbin---are you sure that #1 is your final answer?

My husband and I have no children, because I couldn't have them. He had 2 emotional affairs and 1 physical one and we have been in recovery since August 1998. We will be celebrating our 20th anniversary in about 2 1/2 weeks. (Note the use of the word "celebrate") <P>It is possible!

K,<BR>You cracked me up with the Regis Philbin thing. Ok, I'll refresh everyone's memory. I put the whole story back into my profile. <P>Um, #1 isn't an option anymore. If I had it to do over again and under the same circumstances, I would have chosen #1. With my second husband, I absolutely think confession was a bad idea, and I still would rather be in a not so great marriage than facing choices #2 or #3. My first choice would to not have an affair in the first place, obviously.<P>However, AFTER the affair, and given my marital circumstances, the options presented here are the most realistic. <P>Will someone please tell me why everyone is so set on marrying me off a third time! <P>Bystander,<BR>I answered your question on another thread with your name on it <P>To everyone else,<BR>I didn't want to scare anyone too much with the statistic that Harley mentioned. I'm guessing that bystander and some others have a point about how long someone has been married, or willingness to make an effort. I think all those points are valid. I still think that having children gives people an extra incentive to stay together. That effect is probably impossible to measure. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 18, 2000).]