Hi JL,<P>One of the reasons I believe "men", in the tradional sense at least, are becoming obsolete is because their primary roles are not as much in demand as they were in the past. There has been alot of talk lately about the reasons why women divorce, and even Harley suggests that the main reason is neglect. <P>A man's primary role in the past was the breadwinner. Women didn't have a whole lot of choices as far as careers went. Either teaching, nursing, or secretarial work, and that was just in the last 50 yrs. or so. It used to be forbidden for female teachers to even be married. <P>I totally agree that I've made myself obsolete for most men. What I have most men don't want, and I'm coming to accept that. What most men have, I don't need or want. So why am I angry? Or appear to be angry? Cause I'm different, a freak if you will. Not only am I a freak for leading an intellectual life but as I grew up was told that it wasn't correct for me to even pursue a career. Or that it is ok to have a career, as long as it is placed second to "my man's" career. <P>I've met one or two men who were attracted to me because I was getting a PhD. Seems it is kind of a trophy for some, like having a beautiful wife is for others. There are guys who are fine with women having careers too, not because they actually believe women should work or admire their passion in life, but because it is less responsibility for them, the man. The minute their wife's career infringes upon them in the slightest, you'll see how quick their support vanishes. My ex fell into this category. <P>I'll take a life of man-less-ness over being the wife most men are raised to expect, which is generally submissive, ambitionless, and self-sacrificing. Hey, there are tons, and tons of women out there who fit that description. Don't think that I don't have my fair share of animosity against them for making my job harder. Heck, why hang around me, someone who is actually going to expect the man to treat me like an equal in all things, when men can have a cream-puff? Problem is, cream-puff doesn't stay that way forever, as divorce statistics can attest to.<BR>I drive a hard line. I think you consider it to be transactional and keeping score. I consider it to be fair, and taking turns. Everyone wants to feel wanted and needed. I just think the level of dependency most men require in order to feel "needed" borders on a desire to control and dominate women. <P>I simply refuse to do for a man anything he won't do for me. Plain and simple. That makes me a freak.<P>Here is my favorite of the week:<BR>I am not a pretty girl<BR>that is not what i do<BR>i ain't no damsel in distress<BR>and i don't need to be rescued<BR>so put me down punk<BR>wouldn't you prefer a maiden fair?<BR>isn't there a kitten<BR>stuck up a tree somewhere<P>I am not an angry girl<BR>but it seems like<BR>i've got everyone fooled<BR>everytime i say something<BR>they find hard to hear<BR>they chalk it up to my anger<BR>never to their own fear<BR>imagine you're a girl<BR>just trying to come clean<BR>knowing full well they'd prefer<BR>you were dirty<BR>and smiling<BR>i'm sorry<BR>but i am not a maiden fair<BR>and i am not a kitten <BR>stuck up a tree somewhere<P>...i have earned my disillusionment<BR>i have been working all of my life<BR>i am a patriot<BR>i have been fighting the good fight<BR>and what if there are<BR>no damsels in distress<BR>what if i knew that <BR>and i called your bluff<BR>don't you think every kitten<BR>figures out how to get down<BR>whether or not you ever show up<P>i am not a pretty girl<BR>i don't really want to be a pretty girl<BR>i want to be more than a pretty girl<P>

Hey TS,<P>Don't mean to hone in here. I don't view you as being obsolete or even close to being a freak.<P>I supported my W in all her endevours. The sad fact is that she never persued them. Now I understand that she is back in college and has a goal. Maybe I just needed to be out of the way.<P>I'm working on a response to your question how many times do you want to be married. <P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Tim

TS,<P>You said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I simply refuse to do for a man anything he won't do for me. Plain and simple. That makes me a freak.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But TS, I like you why don't you like me? Most people male and female like you and supported you when you were going through your darkest periods, and yet you respond with ALL men are useless. <P>These men supported you, but you wouldn't support them? Do you see where this logic is going?<P>It is fair enough to look at any future romances with a very critical eye, but to comdenm half of the humans on this planet because your first H cheated on you and you cheated on the second H, seems to take this a little far. I know you tried to make it right, and he wouldn't forgive, but that doesn't represent the whole group any more than gold digging women represent women as a group.<P>Do you see why I respond to you the way I do? I want to see you successful and happy. I'm not sure you can do either if you attitude about men shows through to people you work with or who could make you happy.<P>You are reflecting the very narrow minded attitude that you abhore in men. I know that isn't really you and you know it.<P>Think about what I have said. We'll talk more tomorrow I am sure.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Medic238,<BR>To be fair, alot of women are pretty torn about what their supposed to be doing too. When they go to work, they feel guilty about leaving their kids. If they stay home, they miss the challenges of work. <P>Regarding my other question... I know there are lots of people who don't have a problem being married multiple times. If you find someone you love and who loves you, and you want to be married it shouldn't matter if it is your 1,2nd, or 10th marriage. When I got married, I was so sure. I did everything I was supposed to do, or so I thought. I was totally open about my life and about my needs and expectations. We did premarital counseling, the whole nine yards.<P>I can't imagine ever going through this again. Even standard relationships seem like a joke to me after what I've learned here. I'm 36 now. I figure that in about 20 yrs or so my sex drive will drop off to a point where there won't be even a temptation to have a normal relationship. I just don't have any desire to go from man-to-man the rest of my life, getting tested and re-tested for STD dujour everytime I strike up a new romance. I'd rather have a friend. That is why I asked the question. There are other options besides getting married over and over, for me at least.<P>I feel so sad for my friends who are my age and still dating. With every new guy come hopes that this will be the "one". Then they break up and start over with some other guy. Pretty pathetic. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>To be fair, alot of women are pretty torn about what their supposed to be doing too. When they go to work, they feel guilty about leaving their kids. If they stay home, they miss the challenges of work. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is so true! And women with children who work outside the home feel guiltier spending some time doing what they want to do than the men do. Men feel free to have their hobbies - go golfing, boating, once a week card game, etc. But a woman feels SO guilty about being away from the home while she's at work, she doesn't DARE take anytime for herself AFTER work. After all, she's SUPPOSED to be home. She's SUPPOSED to be the caregiver. She's SUPPOSED to cook, clean the house, etc. How many men feel that kind of guilt if they pursue a hobby after work or on weekends?

Hi TS,<P>My second W and I don't have children together. My two sons are from the first marriage. Val has a congential heart condition , Tetrology of Fallot, that essentially makes child birth for her a death sentence. <P>I know you have been through alot of crap. I followed your story with regard to exposing the other relationship or keeping it secret. I do believe that you chose the right path. It would have eaten you alive eventually.<P>I was a rotten H the first and second marriages. I didn't fully understand what being a H truly meant. I thought the love we had was enough. Boy, was I wrong. <P>Thankfully, I found this site and you guys. NOW, I know what it is to be a life partner.<P>I certainly hope that I can show Val that I have made progress. It is very doubtful at best. She had told me of problems in the past and I made what I thought to be progress and heard no more on the subject. I figured I fixed it. I didn't understand that she was walking away from me.<P>Yes, I will get married again and this time for the rest of my life. I have grown so much.<P>I'm sorry for the way you feel about relationships. You seem to still carry some resentment towards the male population. I wish that you can overcome that. Maybe I'm wrong, won't be the first time.<P>Wishing us the Best.<P>Tim

JL,<BR>I have never said *all* men are useless. You want to hear something funny? I don't look at the guys I work with to be men. When I'm at work, I don't consider myself a woman. My other friend and I joked around about being "androgynous lab-thing". I just don't think of my co-workers in terms of male or female. <P>I have nothing but the highest praise for men on this website who are trying to save their marriages. I am happy to be helpful or supportive of anyone, man or woman, who is the same towards me. <P>A lone daisy in a field of weeds does not make the daisy any less beautiful. However, it doesn't make me hope any less for a field full of daisies instead of weeds. Not for myself, cause that part of my life is over. However, I certainly want my friends and my niece and any female children I have to feel safe walking down the street at night, without being afraid of being raped or killed. I want them to feel safe in a relationship free of abuse, physical or verbal. I want them to feel like they don't have to chose between having a family and having an interesting career. <P>I'm not a sexist for setting high standards for men's behavior. I set equally high standards for women. <P>I don't think most men consciously set out to use women for sex or to keep women "down". That would be a bit paranoid. <P>You know that my second ex did more than just fail to forgive me. That would have been a breeze. <P><BR>Truthseeker,<BR>Yea, I see it all of the time. Even when there are no children. Things haven't changed a whole lot, even among educated women it seems.<P>Medic238,<BR>I'm very sorry about your marriages. I know you must miss Val very much and have alot of regrets. I'm happy for you that you haven't lost your faith. You don't need to feel sorry for me (see the song up there?). I suppose I could try harder to mold myself into dream woman. I've seen what "dream woman" looks like, and I don't want to be her. <P>When I got married the second time, I thought it was for life too. But ya know, you can't control what someone else does. As long as divorce is still a possibility, I will never remarry, because I will never be divorced a THIRD time.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 16, 2000).]

JL,<BR>It occurred to me as I was scanning the latest posts, that I really just am totally against being married for a third time.<P>I also am against have sex without commitment, so A follows B, you see. No marriage means no commitment means no sex. No sex so no relationships. Easy.<P>I thought somemore about what you said. I can see why you think I am down on all men. In reality, the negative messages I receive about what women are supposed to be come from both men and women. Even though I think the things that some women say are detrimental, I believe men's actions are even more harmful and have a greater impact on my life, which is why they have been singled out. For instance, the reason I can't walk the street at night is not because of I am afraid of a woman doing me harm. If I had a child, I'd be worried about sending them to school, not because I'd be afraid of a girl shooting them. I don't understand why more thoughtful men aren't doing something about men's violence and problems with intimacy. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 17, 2000).]

TS,<P>Thoughtful men used to do something about men such as you describe. We used to give them a fair trial and hang them. I am only partly joking. When punishment was swift and just (hopefully) things were better. <P>TS I am a large man and quite frankly there are very few humans on this planet that I would fear. But if I were to interfer and stop a fight between a man and woman/wife and harmed either one, my wife and children could be made to suffer from the lawsuits. <P>Much of what goes on is because putting someone in jail is not punishment that these people understand. In most cases only pain and loss seem to be understood, and our society does neither. I am not advocating vigilantes, but there is no way the father and brothers of a woman could go take care of business so to speak as they used to be able to do. Criminals fear very little, these days.<P>Having said that; there are fundamental differences between men and women that I don't think you truely appreciate. My favorite illustration is that when women go around the bend, they collect a thousands cats and live in a dump. When men go around the bend they become ax murders. Both are health hazards to society, but in very different ways. You could view it as the nuturing instincts running amuck in women, and the defense mechanisms of men running amuck.<P>Back to the real topic of this conversation. You say that you would not have sex without commitment. Sounds like an excellent plan to me especially in this day of HIV and other things. You say you don't want to be a traditional wife, fine. Many men don't want to be traditional husbands. You will find the right person TS.<P>It will require that you are out of school and settled into your profession. You see a man won't know what he is getting in you until he sees you where you want to be. So far no man has ever seen that, because you have yet to arrive where you want to be. <P>The only real difference in you and many women is that where they want to be is more evident to men. But often times that isn't true either, hence all of the divorces. I will remind you of the fact that many students who marry in college end up divorced simply because college is such an artificial environment.<P>Take care of your schooling and professional aspirations, then I think you will find the happiness you seek.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi guys.<P>I left my career 'cause I wanted to stay home with my children and h didn't want to. Nothing wrong with that. Please don't decry the more traditional wife just 'cause you don't like it.<P>But I keep trying to figure out something maybe you can help me with. Some work to live while others live to work. My h just loves his work. Mostly this is good, I wouldn't want him to be in a job he didn't like.<P>But this was a problem for me, long before the affairs. I wanted (and want now, more than anything) a wonderful relationship, one where we would bring each other the greatest joy in life. I felt like I could not compete, the high of making a multimillion dollar deal, negotiating, etc. Felt like we (the family) are his hobby.<P>He has worked hard since we've been rebuilding. Turned off the pc and cell phone, made time for our "15 hrs", doesn't get lost in his thoughts as often. But are these mostly changes on the surface?<P>Can he be in love with his work and really be the man I need?? I was thinking today, it's not just spending more time together (which has been a huge plus), but what does he spend most of his time thinking about?<P>I may have spent too much time on MB and otherwhise thinking about my life and relationship, but shouldn't I wonder about him if he seems to spend so little time thinking about our relationship. Someone like him would never take the time to post on MB. Even after making love, when we are holding each other, I've asked him a few times what he's thinking about - work.<P><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited March 17, 2000).]

schizzo,<BR>I'm not putting down women for staying home with children. What I detest is when women are *expected* to stay home or do the majority of childcare/housework. This is as equally unfair to men as it is to women. It is unfair to men to *expect* them to be the primary wage earner as well. <P>In another thread I said that I expect men to spend at least as much time on their emotional development as they spend on another hobby. I also expect women to be self-sufficient before they bring children into the world. You said you left your career, and that you were happy to do so. That is ok. At least you had a career, and if something, like death, dismemberment, abandonment, whatever, happened to your husband, you would be able to provide for your children. You are also in a position to not have to put up with a bunch of extra BS just to have a roof over your head. <P>JL,<BR>I told my H before we got married that I was determined to get a graduate degree. He knew what he was getting. We've talked about this before. Yes, he did come up here, but it was like pulling teeth. I didn't like have to twist his arm to do something I had long,long ago said I was going to do. He had a hard time following through on alot of his promises. Like alot of people, he said whatever he thought I wanted to hear (I guess) to get what he wanted, but then when I called his bluff, he didn't want to follow through. It took 8 yrs for that to sink in.<P>People change throughout their life. The people who manage to stay married are ones who understand that and find a way to grow together. I've been married twice. As much as I'd like to undo that, I can't. I'm not going there again. I'm not kidding when I say I would rather kill myself than be divorced a third time. I know that sounds extreme, but that is how I feel. <P>I also understand very well the lies people tell themselves in order to justify having certain needs met. Sex, financial support, whatever it is. It has absolutely nothing to do with actual love, though. I can receive real love without having to deal with ANY of the stuff people on this website are going through. Thank God. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I know that sounds extreme, but that is how I feel. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As K, JL and others on this board keep telling me, feelings change. That's how you feel now. In a few years, after you have gotten your degree and are where you want to be in life, (and a lot of healing has taken place) your feelings just might change. For now, abstinence is probably what you need in order to heal and in order to get to where you want to be. There's nothing wrong with that. And if you do cbhange your mind later, there's nothing wrong with that, either.<BR>

TS, I know you're not against SAHMs, just wanted to point out we're not all home 'cause some man demanded it.<P>Can you take a shot at my question? You seem to love your work. Can my h continue in a job he loves and still be the man I need?

schizzo,<P>Alot of people are drawn to do what they are good at. It sounds like your H is very good at what he does and enjoys it very much. He doesn't spend alot of time thinking about your relationship, and so he is probably not nearly as "good" at that as he is at his job. Nor is he as good at your relationship as you are. It is natural that he would feel drawn to spend his time thinking about his job instead of his relationship.<P>It will take discipline on his part to focus his attention on you when you two are together. As you pointed out, you two are not really "together" when his mind is off somewhere else. I do alot of training with dogs, and some reading/mentoring with children. The trick with keeping attention is to make it fun, then progressively work up to longer and longer spans of time. <P>I would say, yes, it is very possible for your H to enjoy his work and still be the man you want. You said he has turned off the PC and cell phone, and is working on keeping to the 15 hrs you suggested. He is not in the "habit" of doing these things yet. In time it will become a habit. I'm guessing that as he feels more and more confident that his work will get done AND he is succeeding in his efforts with you, that things will improve. It is very important at this stage that you reward his attempts. <P>There were times I would obsess about work, but mainly when I was afraid I wasn't doing well. As you can probably guess, I'm a bit of a perfectionist <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 17, 2000).]

Hi JL, K, and Bystander,<P>To a few of my favorite MB guys....<P>I know you would think it was really nice if I found some man I could love and live happily ever after. At least two of you are pretty happy in your marriages now (and you're hopeful Bystander), so it is understandeable that you would want that for me too.<P>Maybe you have told me this before, and it just didn't sink in, but you know what would make me feel a whole lot better? I wish you guys would not tell me that Mr. Right is going to come along some day. I've got to think it is possible to have a fulfilling life without pairing up. Hey, if the Pope can do it, why can't I? <P>I've always prided myself on doing things differently and bucking conventional wisdom. Even though my new lifestyle has required some adjustment (big changes always do!), it is so much better for me than anything else I have considered. Looking back, I was at my strongest and best before H's one and two came into my life. <P>That is the pattern I've been in, for whatever reason. Now that I understand that, I refuse to trade my strength for companionship with any one person. I've considered having relationships without marriage, and my conclusions are the same. I consider the time spent with H's one and two to be a complete waste of my time. They benefitted from my support at my expense, and left whenever I was no longer convenient for them. Maybe #3 would not be the same. Who knows? I do know I've lost too much to consider taking that chance again. It is just not worth it for me. <P>If you could, I'd really just like to hear "TS, I'm sure you'll have a wonderful life regardless of whether you have a man in it or not!" That is the kind of support I'm looking for. <P>Oh, one more thing. JL, you asked me one time if I would shun a co-worker if I got screwed by them in business, even if it would hurt my career. I thought about that for awhile and thought, yes I would and I have before. Fortunately for me, I have never been in a position in business where one person could make or break me. This is the same approach I am using in my personal relationships now. No one person will ever be in a position again to make or break me. That is what I allowed to happen when I got married, and what I won't allow again.

TS,<P>You know there is so much I would like to say, but I will say this. My response to you has everything to do with your happiness. <P>I am not advocating that you must be married to be happy. If your present state of mind persists, you have no chance of receiving happiness from a marriage. That is what bothers me. You see I would like for you to have the full range of possibilities for your future. Whatever would make you happy. If you cut out marriage, or companionship as a possibility to make you happy you have reduced your options.<P>Both K and I feel that once out of school and settled into your profession, the possibilities will open up to you. We would like you be receiptive but not wedded to the possibilities.<P>For this to happen though you would have to be welling to make some chances that you may never take. You will have to learn that there are no equal marriages or relationships between men and women. We want and can do different things. I'll give you a simple example.<P>My wife and I married. We loved each other very much. We had sex. We produced children. We raise the children. BUT, I did not become pregnant. I could be part of the process of conception, but I could not produce that child. My wife has done something for the marriage, that I cannot repay or do. It is very one sided. All I can do is accept what was done. Yes, it is very natural, yes all animals reproduce in a one sided fashion, but that still does not change the fact that my wife and I are not equal in our marriage.<P>I cannot do what she did.<P>You and your second H had a similar issue. He agreed to leave his job, friends, and sell the house to support your strong need to have a Ph.D. He did not really want to but a promise was a promise and so he did it. You hated that because you could not accept that he would sacrifice for you and you could not repay him. You offered to drop out of the program when trying to reconcile with him, but he knew that you had your eye on the PhD and it was much more important to you than he or your marriage was.<P>You know this to be true. What makes it very painful for you to address is that not only did he do all of this reluctantly but was rewarded for his "sacrifice" by you having an affair on him. He left you because he realized he could never trust you. And apparently he did his best to make you pay for your rejection of him and betrayal.<P>Where am I going with this? You see your need for everything to be equal when it cannot is to try and cover something up, in my opinion. That something is that you don't like to feel that you owe someone something. <P>You have not been blessed with the wisdom yet, to realize that many times it is more difficult to receive something from another than to give it.<P>TS, I don't care if you ever marry, but I would like to see you happy. You won't be if everything is equal like an accountants leger. Life is not like that, it is about owing and being owed. I cannot repay my wife in kind for her carrying our children, but I can try an support her financially, physically, and emotionally. But she has to be willing to accept my offer.<P>You will have to be willing to accept someones offer, TS. This offer may come from a male, female, or gasp! that third species your co-workers. If you can receive, then you can be happy.<P>That is really all that I or anyone would like to see. You being happy with the maximum options for being in that wonderful state.<P>I apologize if I dug up some painful memories, but I do see your need for everything to be equal as covering for something else. <P>Yeah, Yeah, I know something else to debate, but do think about what I said.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

TheStudent,<P>First off true happiness is found in the Lord. Secondly, a real man is one who follows God's will. Proverbs 31 defines what a wife is supposed to be. This woman is industrious and has a career. Besides God put both men and women here to be helpers for each other. If God had intended for man to be alone then He never would have created Eve.<P>I know I have stated this strongly but it is definitely presented in His love.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>10 <BR>A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. <BR>11<BR>Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. <BR>12<BR>She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. <BR>13<BR>She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. <BR>14<BR>She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. <BR>15<BR>She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls. <BR>16<BR>She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. <BR>17<BR>She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. <BR>18<BR>She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. <BR>19<BR>In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. <BR>20<BR>She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy. <BR>21<BR>When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet. <BR>22<BR>She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple. <BR>23<BR>Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. <BR>24<BR>She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. <BR>25<BR>She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. <BR>26<BR>She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. <BR>27<BR>She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. <BR>28<BR>Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: <BR>29<BR>"Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all." <BR>30<BR>Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. <BR>31<BR>Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited March 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited March 19, 2000).]

JL,<P>Yes, it is true that only women can have babies. And only women can breastfeed - and that was the primary reason that I was the one who stayed home with the kids, that I was the one who worked at most part-time, that I am the one with the much smaller salary. And because of that, he is the one with the power. I will be forever dependent on child support to raise our six kids - yes, effectively forever, because I will be of retirement age before our youngest is grown. <P>TheStudent is right, that it is not safe to ever be dependent on another human being for anything, and especially your financial well-being.

Hey, Just thought I would jump in here a minute.<P>Being a man or woman, we cannot expect the other sex to make us happy. I think in order to be completly happy we need to be happy with ourselves first.<P>I was not happy the last year or so of my marriage. There were many reasons, but I still loved my H and took my 19 years of marriage for granted. I will never do that again.<P>I do know, I am stronger now. I was a SAHM and just found out my H resented it. He resented that I stayed home did all the voluntering ect. I wish he would of said so years ago. I loved staying home but I did not when I felt he did not appreciate it.<P>Now, I am going back to college for my second degree. I am taking care of the kids, the house ect by myself. <P>But, I will get remarried, either to my H, if he ever wakes up, or I will eventually find someone else. Not because I need to feel complete with out a man. Because I like the companioship ect.<P>(We are not divorced yet, but will be if a miracle does not happen)<P>You will be happy being single or married, because you choose to be. Being single does not mean that you are not complete. Being married does not make you whole. <P>Best of luck in getting your degree!

my3kids,<P>And that is another reason not to marry. My H apparently resented my staying home to take care of the kids as well, and never bothered to tell me. In fact, he said he didn't like the idea of having the kids in daycare. He never bothered to tell me anything that was apparently bothering him. He said everything was fine when apparently it wasn't. You can't depend on anyone to be there for you, you can't depend on them telling the truth - about all you can depend on is that they will lie through their teeth to get what they want, and that they will use you and when you are of no more use to them, they will discard you. <P>I think TheStudent's daisy analogy is correct. There are some good people in the world, but the chance of finding them is very, very slim. And the field is full of things that look like daisies, will appear to be daisies for 25 years, and then will turn out to be poison ivy in disguise.