I called the OM and hung up when he answered his cell phone. He immediately called her because he remember the line for our computer. Our oldest went and told her that her phone was ringing. She came out and heard me talking to him about why he was calling her cell phone. This is why I know that he was lying as well as she was lying about each of them calling each other.<P>I think they think I am going to go crazy other this. I will not. I am just trying to get her to make a decision. She wants to do like her female friend who is encouraging the affair. Her female friend is married but is able to do whatever she wants to do on her own time which includes having affairs.<P>I should have left well enough alone when she started to read Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. I guess my vindictive side came out and couldn't help but to get the jab in. We eventually got into a scuffle where she scratched me. As usual I only held her wrists outside the shoving that ocurred. She left and rode around. Don't know where she went but that is okay.<P>It is moments like this that I would gladly welcome translation, a heart attack, her having a heart attack, her becoming saved, etc. I love her but the mood swings are really getting me and the boys down. Our oldest let out some frustration about what is going on between W and me. She sometimes takes out her frustration on him particularly when she sees him doing the same things she did as a child and is still doing as a 36 year old adult. Our oldest is 13. She acts like him. His hormones are raging.<P>I told her he needed to see a counselor. Her IMMEDIATE comeback was I need to see acounselor too. She is supposed to go see the psychologist for a follow up but hasn't made the appointment. She ialso supposed to follow up with the psychiatrist for the effexor that he placed her on.<P>I am sad and hurt but happy at the same time. I have told the boys that we are moving out as soon as I pay off the credit cards at the end of the year. This will afford her time to get her act together. She has to make a decision. I WILL NOT let her do what her female friend is doing. I WILL NOT let her continue to be a LEECH. She can go be with the loser or be all alone which is where she is to a small degree.<P>I told her that I will be here for her as long as God gives me the strength to endure and Satan stays out of my head. Yes, I am struggling badly because it will be a year since we were last intimate (on 30 May.) Every where I go I can't help but to observe cuoples and observe women and men wearing their wedding rings and die inside when I see it. Every moive that I watch makes me hurt because there is something in it that makes me reminisce about good times with her which saddens me more.<P>I have even gottent o the point where I even think about the good times I had with my XGF. XGF is being divorced by her H. Her H was the adulterer. She won't talk to me so this is a blessing from God. Why? Because there are only two women I will ever let get that close to me again: my W and her. I am even having doubts that I would let either one of them back in that part of my life because I don't want hte pain to come again.<P>I have found that the only one who can be counted on without equivocation is God. I trust HIm completely. I know He is going to get me thru this. I know that He is using me to save her. I know that she is going to be saved as long as I am not misinterpreting my dream where He let me know this. In the dream He did not say that our marriage would be saved. He did say that she would be saved because it is a concern of mine.<P>I am actively pursuing help on how to deal with the mood swings associated with bipolar disorder. I am becoming more and more convinced that she suffers from it because I feel that I have noticed her switch moods within an hour of each episode: high and low.<P>She was really angry that I showed her that I knew what she had been doing. She took her most recent cell phone bill so that I would not have the hard evidence to back up my accusation. I know that she has been in regular contact with him because I looked at the bill while she was in the shower. Her most recent contact per the bill that I could skim quickly was 8 Mar.<P>Being able to vent here is helping immensely. If I could only talk with her about what is gong on would be even better.<P>I spoke with OM. He thinks I believe him. I know he is lying as much as she is. They both are pathological liars. He thinks he can snow me because she is lying to me. I will not be deterred because I am accomplinshinmg God's will. I pray that I am not embarrassing Him. I turned on the radio and there was a sermon on in Ephesians. I heard both good and bad about me. I am focusing on correcting the bad.<P>I apologized for fighting with her in our little scuffle. I asked her forgiveness for being a bad influence from being to pushy at times. I know that I can do that easily. I have always been that way and am having a hard time breaking that habit. Much like her addiction to disobeying. I have an addiction to presenting my ideas until they are acknowledged. (In a way this is what we all seek thus her affairs. But I am finding that no one cares until it has happened to them: not being acknowledged.) I am trying to be more compassionate.<P>Today was not good for our boys particularly our oldest. In many ways he reminds me of me. He played mediator and comforter today for both of us. Yet, at the same time he acts like her. He is becoming more afraid of her as she is afraid of her mother. He doesn't want to confront her which makes him regress into the shell that he feels comfortable in. This is what she did as a child. She still has not gotten out of that mode.<P>I suspect at the end of the year the three of us will probably be moving out. I will probably file for divorce with the hopes of reconciliation occurring after the divorce is final. I figure about six months of having to work all the time to take care of yourself will open her eyes to what a loving H she had. God willing it won't come to that. But, she needs a reality check. Once the divorce is final and I get custody of the boys, I won't have to deal with her except for visitation.<P>I want custody so that I can ensure that their needs are met along with some of their wants. I won't have to deal with someone wasting our money on losers like the OM. Her cell phone is her way of trying to keep secrets from me.<P>The very essence of secrets connotes illicit behavior that one doesn't want the other to know about. The only valid secret that should exist are what is in your prayer to God. All other secrets cause the problems that have led ALL of us to be here.<P>I am praying that we won't have to go to that point: the divorce. I plan on treating her the way that I had envisioned me treating her: getting small gifts, leaving notes, taking her to lunch (if allowed), etc. She told me that I neglected her during the first part of our marriage. Granted I purchased a PC which I spent more time on it than I should have but the rest of the time was devoted to her which was probably at least 90% of the time I was home. When she was pregnant with our boys, I tried to help out coworker (male) friends with their computers. She tells me that I have no friends. I stopped devloping friendships like that because it was causing problems for our marriage when I would spend time with them.<P>I am not down on myself because I know I have done my very best with what I knew at the time. I have grown and am much better than I was then. She was okay with my behavior up ntil today because she was getting to do whatever her lying heart desired. She thrives on being in control. This control issue is a problem for a female who was sexually abused as a child. <P>I am moving in this direction because the boys are better able to handle it. God willing I will get custody. If I do she is in for another set back because what she holds dear next to herself and OM in that order is our boys. It is a shame that she doesn't have Jesus before herself. If she had Jesus in the right place I wouldn't be here. If she were to make that decision to get right with Jesus then we would be on one accord with disagreements because He reveals a little to everyone. We have to be able to discern that which is coming from HIm through what He reveals to others to teach us.<P>I have ranted and pontificated long enough.<P>LOVE YOU ALL!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

professorg -- No profund thoughts here, but wanted to offer my thoughts and prayers.<P>God Bless

ES,<BR>Thanks. I come here because I know Ican get support and wise advice on what I am doing right and most importantly on what I am doing wrong so that I fix the wrong things.<P><BR>I can now relate to Solomon and his musings in Ecclesiastes.<BR>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited March 19, 2000).]

Rob,<P>Based on your behaviors and feelings, and how your wife is acting, I think that you're not going to make it to the end of the year and have any shred of love left for your wife.<P>I would suggest that you make plans to separate by the end of this month. Plan B---this will be the best thing you can do for your marriage. You're doing too much damage by keeping yourself in this situation; both to your wife and to yourself.<P>God bless

Rob...<P>Oh my goodness...<BR>Our lives are on a parallel!<P>First and foremost...<BR><B>K</B> is right!... isn't he always...<P>It is clear your love units are starting to deminish...<BR>...this is the time for preparing for <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>...<BR>...you can't just go into in a flash...<P>Start preparing your boys for it too...<BR>(I've introduced some concepts (no details) to my chidren already) Simple stuff...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>="love your enemy/neighbor"<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>="Shake the dust from your sandals" (doesn't mean stop loving)<P>Start drafting the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> letter... WilliamJ's is excellent... and there are other references on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A>.<P>Get your finance together (docuentation, separate savings/checking account... credit cards if possible)<P>Most importantly... you must start documenting everything... <B>I do mean EVERYTHING</B> you do for the kids... A custody battle is <B>not</B> easy! I have been somewhat fortunate on the custody issue... since my W left (couldn't stand living with me anymore!)<P>Just a word or two on that... Your descripton so far sounds very much like the way things were between me and my W the month's before she left... the only difference is you don't have a divorce filed against <B>you</B> yet! Yes... I to was a bit too preachy(sorry if you don't think you are... see my reply to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/001674.html" TARGET=_blank>GOD IS ABLE TO HEAL THE PAIN OF DIVORCE</A>)... about the morality of what was happening... and yes... I do believe my W too has pyschological problems unresolved!<P>In any case the "custody" issue could be very tough... If you ever talk to <B>any</B> attorney... they will <B>all</B> tell you the same thing... MOTHER'S WILL ALMOST ALWAYS GET CUSTODY! This is a fact! The theory that fathers have equal rights is very very far rom realiy. What have you done so far to present your case to a judge on this?... You must start on this very quickly!!! If you want some more ideas... e-mail me at imherczeg@yahoo.com .<P>I know your pain... it is real!<P>Only you will know when you time for <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> will be...<BR>...but I feel <B>K</B> has sensed this correctly... it will be sooner than year end.<P>I'm praying for you brother... <BR>My peace is with you.<P>Jim

Rob<P>K and I really haven't seen eye to eye here on MB,but I have to say with his response to you, he is 'right on'.<P>I would 'seriously' ask you to follow his counsel. In fact, I wouldn't wait til the end of the month, why not by the end of this week?<P>You just can't remain in the situation any longer (guess this is called Plan -A-)....<BR>you are going to have to get away from your wife....she will NEVER resolve anything with you both living under the same roof.<P>If/when you do separate, you need to maintain no contact with her period. No cards, no "I love you's"....you will only harden her heart even further. This is casting 'pearls before swine" (not calling her a swine) just saying you are making yourself vulnerable to a person who at this stage of the game is going to just step on your heart.<P>I have kept up with your story, in fact you have been such a blessing to many here on MB, and I think we ALL know you have gone the 2nd, 3d and even 4th mile with your wife.<P>It's grow up time for her and time for you to show some 'tough love'.<P>[censored] from Texas<P><BR>

Our financial picture will not allow me to do it any sooner than the end of the year. We can't deal with the added stress of running two households until the end of the year.<P>As far as plan B is concerned, my plan B includes filing for divorce with the boys coming with me when I move out. I can't do to them what was done to her. Her mother was rather mean to her because her father left her mother. I will not allow our boys to suffer through that. I asked them if they wanted to stay with me or her. Our oldest definitely does not want to be with me. Our youngest wants to be with both of us. I told them that I would do everything in my power to get things to work but that there would be no guarantees because I can't make their mother do anything.<P>Part of me still feels really bad about her because she has not learned from anyone what a normal relationship is about. She has been operating from a distorted view that a wounded 13 year old can conjure up. If I could do it sooner I would and will if our finances radically change. The divorce is necessary to show her that I am serious.<P>It is also important that I get custody of the boys because there will always be that connection to attempt to justify seeing me. I am talking cold turkey much like the intimacy that hasn't occurred since 30 May 1999. I can remain celebate because sex though it is important is not as important as it being sacred. God is not allowing me to leave because He wants me to leave in His time.<P>When I do leave it won't be for me. It will be for her and the boys. Doing what is right for them is what is right for me. I am His servant which makes me their servant. I do this because I love Him, her, and the boys. In loving them I love myself. I know that I am doing her an injustice by hanging around. However, He has not opened the door to allow me to leave. I suspect it is because I am being selfish.<P>With each new day, I find myself becoming more and more selfish until I read or hear His word. It is at those moments that I realize why He is not letting me leave. She needs me to be there for her because no one has ever been there for her in the way that I have. I will not be disobedient just because I don't like what I am feeling. God does not say that being His obedient child will be a happy pleasant life as defined by the world. As a matter of fact He says that it will be difficult when defined from the worldly perspective. Yet because His yoke is easy and HIs burden is light it makes it easy when I rely on Him rather than on myself to get through this mess. I have survived because He is the source of all my strength. <P><B>I am not dismissing your suggestions. I just can't do it because the financial means is not there right now. He knows what He is doing. I feel that He doesn't want it done to hastily because it would cause her more trauma that is unhealthy for her. I am okay because I rest in Him.</B><P>Thanks for the kind words. Right now I am not sure I want to do the letter. I will probably have it delivered with the divorce papers. I know God knows what He is doing. If she desires to be with someone who does not care enough about her to stay away from a married woman then so be it.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited March 20, 2000).]

I was distraught yesterday and on Sunday. Thus this thread began. However, God has shown me that if the Holy Spirit is to guide me then divorce is out of my list of possibilities. I know that I had gone down that path because I have been focusing on me which makes me as selfish as she is.<P>Today I read the following My Utmost for His Highest daily devotional:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Identified or Simply Interested?<BR> "I have been crucified with Christ . . ." (Galatians 2:20).<P> The inescapable spiritual need each of us has is the need to sign the death certificate of our sin nature. I must take my emotional<BR> opinions and intellectual beliefs and be willing to turn them into a moral verdict against the nature of sin; that is, against any claim<BR> I have to my right to myself. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ . . . ." He did not say, "I have made a determination to<BR> imitate Jesus Christ," or, "I will really make an effort to follow Him"-but-"I have been identified with Him in His death." Once I<BR> reach this moral decision and act on it, all that Christ accomplished for me on the Cross is accomplished in me. My unrestrained<BR> commitment of myself to God gives the Holy Spirit the opportunity to grant to me the holiness of Jesus Christ.<P> ". . . it is no longer I who live . . . ." My individuality remains, but my primary motivation for living and the nature that rules me<BR> are radically changed. I have the same human body, but the old satanic right to myself has been destroyed.<P> ". . . and the life which I now live in the flesh," not the life which I long to live or even pray that I live, but the life I now live in<BR> my mortal flesh-the life which others can see, "I live by faith in the Son of God . . . ." This faith was not Paul's own faith in<BR> Jesus Christ, but the faith the Son God had given to him (see Ephesians 2:8). It is no longer a faith in faith, but a faith that<BR> transcends all imaginable limits-a faith that comes only from the Son of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If Jesus is real in my life then divorce is out but PLAN B is possible because it maybe the straw that breaks the camels back and she becomes His child. Yes, He loves her because He is using me to show her His love. It would be rude of me to dishonor Him and her by divorcing her. Our boys don't want it. I don't want it.<P>But most importantly, it is His will that is most important just as Jesus said right before He died on the cross about His Father's will being done after He asked that the cup be removed from Him. This is how I feel. Thus I do plan to do PLAN B when we are able to run to households.<P>THANKS AGAIN MY FRIENDS!! LOVE YOU ALL!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

I noticed you haven't posted to me since I made a negative comment about you, long ago. I'm sorry. It wasn't personal.<P>I have mostly not replied to you because I'm not sure you would listen.<P>I have followed many of your posts, and I have to ask, do you have a control issue??? You mentioned her "addiction to disobeying", who, you??<P>If your marriage could be fixed, would you agree to Harley's four rules, including the one on mutual enthusiastic agreement?? I may be way off, but I have often wondered when reading your posts. You talk down to her, excuse her based on something that happened as a child, and tell us how great a Christian you are.<P>Don't mean to be harsh. I too had a terrible childhood. It doesn't excuse or even explain anything. We all make choices in life and live by those choices.<P>Do you treat her as an equal?? I hear only how compassionate and what a martyr you are. No woman wants to feel like you are doing her such a favor to be there. She wants you to think she's the greatest.<P>I think you are finally being more honest, and you say you are being selfish. I had to want this marriage for myself, or I would not have gotten here.<P>My h and I want to have a great marriage, we highly respect each other, and the passion is coming back. I would love for all the wonderful people on this board to get there.<P>Again, I may be way off, but I want you to get there. Remember why you fell in love, are you too focused on changing or fixing her??<P>

schizzo:<BR><B>I noticed you haven't posted to me since I made a negative comment about you, long ago. I'm sorry. It wasn't personal.</B><P>No, I wasn't upset by anything that you posted. It takes a lot to get me upset and when I do I calm down very quickly because I know that I am half of the problem. This approach to life upsets her greatly. So I try not to say to much.<P><B>I have mostly not replied to you because I'm not sure you would listen.</B><P>I welcome all comments because I know I have not arrived. If I have thought about a suggestion before I will revisit it to see if I missed something the first time. I am a little anal that way. I seek to only understand so that I can approach a person in the way that communicates most effectively for them. This usually entails asking lots of questions and picking up the tone either written or spoken and body language when physically in there presence. Most of communication is nonverbal. Only 7% is in the words the other 93% is split between the tone and the body language.<P><B>I have followed many of your posts, and I have to ask, do you have a control issue??? You mentioned her "addiction to disobeying", who, you??</B><P>I know I sound like a control freak but I am not when you look at it from my perspective. I just like knowing the truth. Her addiction is not to disobeying. Her addiction is to the pursuit of PERPETUAL happiness that can can only be achieved in a personal relationship with Jesus. If that relationship were right then I would not have a need to be here. Her disobedience is towards God not me even though there are portions of scripture that her disoedience of me is disobedience towards Him.<P><B>If your marriage could be fixed, would you agree to Harley's four rules, including the one on mutual enthusiastic agreement?? I may be way off, but I have often wondered when reading your posts. You talk down to her, excuse her based on something that happened as a child, and tell us how great a Christian you are.</B><P>Without looking at the principles again, I would say that I agree with them mostly. The mutual enthusiasm would come if we were both on one accord in Jesus. I am not really directly tryig to heal my marriage. I am seeking to be the example that God wants me to be for her as well as everyone else. I know it makes me look as though I want to be seen as a martyr. I DO NOT want that. She tells me that I want to be in the lime light (my words) and to be better than anyone else. <P>Nothing could be farther from the truth. I merely understand that I am a broken vessel as all of mankind is. I don't have the right to be critical of her when she is equal in His sight from a brokenness perspective. Yes, what has occurred in one's past causes them to think and react accordingly. It does not relieve them of their responsibility. I say this because I remember when I thought as she thinks now. I was miserable as she is now. I contemplated suicide as she is now. Jesus saved me from all that pain. Reading the Bible has helped me to understand that myselfishness comes into play as well as hers. My earlier post was referring to my wanting to ease my pain as she eased her pain by ahving 8 affairs in the last 7 years. How am I any different from her? I don't want her to be in pain. She doesn't care enough about us to even want to discuss the issue. If she had approached me in a meaningful way then I would have gladly made the change. However, it takes a while for that change to be permanent.<P>She accuses me of straightening up for a while then going back to the old me. She doesn't want to change she wants me to change. It is difficult when the rest of your life is still going on and the stuff that caused me to react in a way that she didn't like did not change on her part. Thus I reverted back to what I instinctively used to solve the problem. In many cases it was what I observed in my parents. She is doing the same. I don't fault her because she doesn't understand that she must change also.<P>Jesus said when He died for the Father to forgive them for they know not what they do. Thus I can't fault her. I can try to show her where she needs help as well as I need help.<P><B>Don't mean to be harsh. I too had a terrible childhood. It doesn't excuse or even explain anything. We all make choices in life and live by those choices.</B><P>Those choices fall in one of two camps. I make bad choices as well which is part of the reason I am here suffering through something I would have rather missed altogether.<P><B>Do you treat her as an equal?? I hear only how compassionate and what a martyr you are.<P>No woman wants to feel like you are doing her such a favor to be there. She wants you to think she's the greatest.</B><P>It is difficult when she places you on a pedestal that you didn't ask to be placed on. I have even asked to be taken off that pedestal. I probably LBed when I asked her to do that. Yet, the affair is one way to take me off that pedestal. Yet, when I try to talk to her about anything, I sense her put me back up there. I also notice that she tends to cower as she does when she is around her mother. I know that at those moments she sees her mother who treated her as though she were a stepchild. I have seen her treat her like this in person. She has expalined this to me. I have even gotten confirmation from her that I remind her of her mother.<P><B>I think you are finally being more honest, and you say you are being selfish. I had to want this marriage for myself, or I would not have gotten here.</B><P>I have been honest from the very beginning. I have nothing to gain by hiding anything except more pain and anguish. I sincerely seek to ease her pain if I have to go through great deals of pain. I seek what is in her best interest. It has nothing to do with being a martyr. It has to do with adhering to God's will. Jesus set the example that we who would follow Him would have to endure. The Bible says it will be so. I am finding it to be true.<P>Yes, I want my marriage to work because I love her. However, I want His will to be done more than anything else. I am His servant and her servant. I only wish that she could see that I have gone through a lot of pain attempting to make her happy as God would have me to do. I would give my life if that is what it would take to make her happy.<P><B>My h and I want to have a great marriage, we highly respect each other, and the passion is coming back. I would love for all the wonderful people on this board to get there.<P>Again, I may be way off, but I want you to get there. Remember why you fell in love, are you too focused on changing or fixing her??<BR></B><P>I have found that anything worth having is hard work. We just happen to be in the worse part. As long as I keep Jesus first then Satan will flee. I don't actually expect to get divorced but I also don't expect to have the wonderful marriage that I know God wants me to have. But I do know that He plans on her being saved. He is using me to do this. She happens to be a professed Christian who is having a hard time understanding. I know I do which is why I posted what I did in this thread.<P>I'm not focused on fixing her. I am focused on doing God's will. Doing that means I focus on being what He wants me to be in the world. I know it seems like I am focused on her. There are those moments when I am. But mostly, I want to meet her needs that God wants me to meet. I even want to meet some of her want needs which He wants me to meet. He has met some of my most important needs by allowing her to be in my life. I know HIm so much better because of her affairs. I was much more selfish before the affairs than I am now even though I didn't realize it until now but not as selfish as I see her right now. I really want nothing more than to ease her pain. Once her pain is gone so will my pain. This will happen when she develops the relationship that causes you to give unconditionally.<BR>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited March 21, 2000).]