As someone who had an affair, I wonder why some people will refer to betrayers actions as something "out of their control" and "they don't know what they're doing, we realize that when they wake up, they sure will be sorry". I can completely agree that an affair is utterly wrong and a person should get out of their marriage if they are that unhappy and that an affair is an addiction; an addiction to praise and excitement and maybe danger? I am horribly sorry that I did that to my husband but I guess until he started living for himself and became involved in activities without me I didn't see clearly what my actions caused.<P>Does anyone believe in tough love? I was just wondering, because in what I've seen and heard and read, this is the only thing that works in most cases. The betrayer doesn't seem to respect the betrayed that wait for them while they are involved with the affair, it's as if they are saying that they aren't worth anything more than what they're putting up with. I've been in counseling and have had to unearth some very painful memories of what I've done but I can honestly say my husband wasn't the reason for my affair. Maybe it was a convoluded view of what marriage should be? I'm not saying that improvements couldn't have been made but aren't problems to work through not bail? I guess I'm just trying to understand my own actions. Anyone think that if a WS (underneath all of those horrible actions an affair can cause) truly loves their spouse that tough love is one of the only things that could perhaps shake them out of their fantasy?

Welcome <B>Live&Learn</B>,<P>Absolutely...<P>Many people here do believe in the concept of "tough love"... and very much agree with James C. Dobson's ideas in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849913411" TARGET=_blank><B>Love Must Be Tough :</B> Proven Hope for Families in Crisis</A>.<P>Some had even discussed the similarities/differences between <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> and the "tough love"... approach. Check out ===> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010263.html" TARGET=_blank>Readers of "Love Must be Tough" - Please Reply</A>.<P>Any other thoughts on the ideas are always welcome!<P>Have you checked out the welcome message I have?... It give's you good quick links to the MB concepts ===> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P>Thanks for you ideas...<BR>...we appreciate all points of view! <P>Jim<BR>

Thanks Jim for the welcome and the links.<P>I have heard of the Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, yet haven't read it. Just seems as though from what I've seen over the years from other couples that the tough love approach (only from my own perspective) works, somewhat like setting personal boundaries. I think the Marriagebuilder's principles work as well, but I don't remember where I read Dr. Harley stating that a marriage can be worked on when there was an affair in progress. <P>Thanks again, and I will check out those links.

It seems to me that tough love at least helps maintain some respect. I know I used it even before I heard of marraige builders. My H was so different. He treated me like he had never treated me before.<P>I basically told him I was not stopping him from what he wanted to do but he could not treat me like an enemy.<P>L & L, I am interested since you ar a betrayer about your "control" or lack of it. In my H's case he is in a total fantasy of "psychic bonding" with the OP. I think there is a deeper problem that makes me think it is out of his control (it is an intense, dependent EA for both H and OP)<P><BR>I can tell you he is confused. He looks it and acts it and says it.

Live&Learn,<P>"...but I don't remember where I read Dr. Harley stating that a marriage can be worked on when there was an affair in progress."...<P><B>That</B> is the purpose of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<P>The phrase "can be worked on" is what you might question...<BR>...Harley considers <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> as "part of"... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage/Recovery</A>...<P>In particular...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> = <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection:</A></B> Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.<BR>...and...<BR><B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care:</A></B> Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>.<P>What it doesn't include (by the mere fact that the affair may be in progress) is...<BR><B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A></B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR>...and...<B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A></B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<P>Time and Honesty cannot be given by a WS or for that matter... if you think about it... neither can a FS!<P>The attempt made by <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> that is <B>not</B> part of "tough love"... is building a period of time that the WS can look back upon... and see that the FS is worth it all! The "Tough love" approach jumps right into <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... without that time that the FS is showing that he/she <B>can</B> change!<P>Check out my other posts on... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011323.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101</A>...and...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A>.<P>I hope this helps too! <P>Jim

tootrusting,<P>It sounds as if your husband is so wrapped up in the admiration that he's getting from the OW and he's just calling it "psychic bonding". May be too simplistic and perhaps off mark but that's where I was too although I didn't call it that, mine was more common - 'soul mate' terminology. He is creative, isn't he? . I think admiration is what drives affairs. My husband (during my affair) tried to do things that he hadn't in awhile, like buy me roses, write poetry etc. because he felt that I was slipping away I think, and it didn't make a dent in my feelings for him because I felt like I was "in love" with OM. But the point came when the fog started to lift so to speak, and also I saw my husband detaching from me and that was the wake up call I needed. I ended the affair pretty quickly after that. To answer your question about control, I felt as if at times I didn't have control over my actions. But that's because I believe I was addicted to the way he treated me. <P>I guess it boils down to the fact that you unconsciously measure the affair against the love for your spouse when you see your spouse leaving you, whether be it emotionally or physically and that can shake a betrayer up. It did me. There was and still is much to work on but the boundaries he didn't allow me to cross helped me to see things in a more realistic light, if that makes any sense.

Jim, that makes sense. My husband plan A'd me for a time, and I looked back on the way he treated me and this had much to do with my positive and loving feelings toward him. <P>Although his plan A (while the affair was in progress) didn't include supporting my going out to pubs or something that would put me in a situation that was inappropriate for a married person. I guess that's where the boundaries definition comes in. Thanks again for your insight!