I haven't posted for a while and have plenty of news. It's confusing to me and would love some comments.<P>For quick background, now separated 18 months, two small children (one a newborn at separation), husband has had ongoing affair with subordinate at work, and has been unwilling to talk to me at a personal level the entire separation. No legal action was in place, although husband has said a few times (when asked and without conviction), that he would be filing for divorce. He had been saying that since August with no follow-through. There has been a long standing trend during the separation of husband saying he will do something but then never doing it.<P>I had been in Plan A for four months, Plan B for five (husband did not interact with one of the children during that time and was depressed), and then Plan A again since June.<P>Last time I posted, I was in the process of writing a letter that changed things. In my Plan A, I didn't asked him about OW or our future (only two scheduled conversations) during that time. We have interacted alot, had great fun together, and get along well, yet there is absolutely nothing personal exchanged. No details of his life are shared.<P>So the letter was directly about how I feel, which I haven't expressed before. It talked about how I feel disrespected and also manipulated to resolve the situation for him. It asked him to take responsibility. After a period of time, he wrote back and said that he had filed for divorce. That was about a month ago.<P>I was skeptical as to whether he had filed. A week after he sent the letter, I sent him a sweet e-mail that said that I would respect a decision to divorce, but that my only interest was in making him happy. I suggested that we get together to talk about the problems he has with me so that I can fix them. We have never really discussed what's wrong with the marriage in any degree of detail that can be worked. He just won't tell me.<P>Anyway, I didn't hear back from that e-mail. We continued to have increasingly enjoyable conversations and interactions. A month passed and then, voila, divorce papers arrived in the mail. I was suprised.<P>Anyway, I made him a sweet card and invited him over to talk (does anyone besides me think that people should have a live conversation about why they're divorcing and what alternatives there are before it happens?). I made him a great dinner, we watched sports on TV and had a great time. I didn't push the sensitive conversation. We didn't talk about us. He got ready to leave. I said "what about our talk"? He suggested an alternate time after he returned our son on Sunday, I said OK.<P>When the alternate time came, he didn't get out of his car. I walked out of the house and reminded him that we were supposed to talk. He said "oh yea, I forgot". I said "it's fine if you don't want to talk, but I'm not returning the divorce papers and the waiver of service until we do. I'll leave it to you to schedule." He said "that's fine", then drove off without looking me in the eye. Effectively, I think that puts the whole thing on hold.<P>Now, I fully believe that there is NO WAY he's going to schedule a talk with me. I also think he's not really committed to the divorce, but filed because I pushed him, he knows he's being irresponsible, and it's the only thing he thinks he can do. I also think there's no way he's going to work on the marriage or end his affair. So my life direction is either divorce or limbo.<P>The thing that's weird about this is that our interactions of late have been getting much better. It's obvious he's enjoying the time with me. He's focused on the conversation and even seems to be angling for invitations to things we do on weekends. He's much more available and friendly. And also interacting with our daughter much better than in the past. I can also tell, by his comments and behaviors, that he likes me, that I'm fun, that he admires what I've been able to do with the children under these difficult circumstances, and that he thinks I'm interesting.<P>Yet, he sent me divorce papers. I'm not sure what to do at this point. My current inclination is to continue Plan A (but less aggressively), but the risk is that I'm increasing my attachment to him at a time when detaching would be better (considering that we're sort of in the process of getting divorced). I also intend to get much more active in planning and scheduling singles activities.<P>The biggest realization in this process is just how determined my husband is NOT TO TALK TO ME OPENLY. I actually think that avoidance of the truth is his highest need of all. He puts it ahead of giving up his kids, losing his home, losing everyone's respect, and even postponing the divorce indefinitely. Does anyone understand how this can be?<P>Incidentally, he's also not talking about the situation to anyone else. I spoke to his brother and he hasn't heard from his since Christmas. He's not returning calls to my inlaws either. He won't see a counselor or read a book. Quite interesting.<P>Long updates from a long-standing member here (since December '98). Any ideas for me?<BR>

Wow. I don't know if I have great insight or advice. I just wanted to offer my support and also to tell you how great you sound under the circumstances. <P>He is one great conflict avoider. Too me he is obviously confused. I guess you should let it rest in his lap (the decision) but maybe if you do it it will force him to wake up. <P>Is he running from all of the responsibility? What does his family make of this?????<P><BR>I will probably be in the same situation. I don't think my H will do anything either unless I do. We also have not talked about what is wrong or what was wrong. I have only heard vague stuff or things that aren't true or don't really make sence. <P>My H works with Op. He does not seem willing to give that up either. I don't know what to do. I am going to have to let him do the nasty D thing. He'll have to face our two children then. <P>I wish I knew what these H were running from.. I guess it is just themselves. I hope others have some better advice. I will return to look. Good luck.

Tootrusting:<P>After 18 months of this, I've probably analyzed everything to death. I do have some conclusions from this.<P>First, I think he must know just how wrong, amoral and weak he's been. If he didn't have something to be incredibly ashamed about, he wouldn't go to such great lengths to avoid talking about it. He would also be able to show some compassion for me if he would open the door to reality just a little. My opinion is that when people avoid to this extreme, what they are avoiding is themselves. He really just hopes it can all go away and we'll all just make nice. Actually, it's been that way so far so maybe he's right. But while we can all look the other way, the reality is that HE CAN'T. He knows what he did. He can't talk about it because that makes it real to him.<P>His family is ashamed by his behavior too, but they're not rough on him. Like me, they have continued to treat him nicely, respectfully, and acceptingly through this entire ordeal. To be blunt, he has not suffered any negative consequences for abandoning his family and having sex with a subordinate, nor refusing to make a decision. We all continue to love him and meet his needs. I've given him gifts, trips, cards, loving letters, dinners, and acceptance throughout. I haven't held him accountable for anything. As far as the marriage goes, the only talk of anyone doing anything wrong has been from me, when I have repeatedly apologized. He hasn't acknowledged a single mistake either during the marriage or after the separation, nor does he offer to forgive me.<P>I was the one to tell BIL about the pending divorce. I imagine that I'll be the one to tell MIL and FIL, as well as our seven year-old son. I can't imagine my husband willingly sitting down to a conversation with me about how to tell people. He couldn't handle it.<P>I don't really think he's running from responsibility. We have a great home and plenty of money. I take care of everything great all by myself. In fact, I might argue that I'm the problem but in a different way than it seems. I am too strong and too independent. I out earn him tremendously. I take care of the household. I make all the investments and have made us a ton of money. I run the social activities, plan the trips, etc. I have concluded that when he looks at himself compared to me, he sees that he falls short. He may well be running from the comparison - he sees me and that makes him reflect on himself. Maybe he can't be the success in the family when I'm around.<P>Who can ever say why. All I can deal with is what is happening. And what I have is someone that's teetering on divorcing me after an 18 month separation, during which no progress on the marriage has happened (but tremendous progress on the relationship with the children during the last few months. That I feel great about.)<P>Anyway, on and on I go. It hasn't been a great time emotionally, but I feel better again the last few days. Thank you so much for your support.

Wow your alot nicer than I would have been -maybe too nice.I think maybe you are putting your expectations of him to high.I wouldn't be surprised if he really lets you down.<P>If he is not even willing to talk to you about why he feels the marriage is over,than it just seems to me that he's totally <BR>in denial and doesn't want to face the reality of whats really happened.You just wait once the honeymoon stage is over with the OW than he'll realize what a mess he's made.Then thats when he's gonna want to talk,but you will have moved on to better and bigger things.And that just serves him right!!!<P>

Distressed,<P>Avoidance of talking about anything difficult is certainly my H's major emotional "need". I don't understand it either. <P>I don't think my H's parents ever talked to him about anything except superficialities. <P>Have you read the book, "I don't want to talk about it?" I haven't read it yet, though I have skimmed through it, but a number of people have recommended it."<P>

Distressed<P>I don't feel real qualified to convey this to you. I'm new to the site... a couple days. But 17 years ago I had an EA with a woman that started out nice but as time went on she became very aggressive and pressured me more and more to leave my wife and child when I did not want to. I had to balance my wife and the OW and it was very difficult. I tried to keep peace on both sides and for some stupid reason I thought I could. The more I wanted to be with my wife the more pressure the OW put on me to leave her. I finally became afraid of what she might do. My fears were not unfounded. I finally told my wife about the EA and told the OW that it was over. She then confronted my wife in a threatening manner and made up lies about sex, money and gifts.<P>I'm not suggesting that your H uses this as an excuse for what he is doing as my wife is doing... as I was doing years ago. It is and was wrong. Sometimes the pressure from all sides is overwhelming and it is hard to decide what to do and in my case I did a lot of nothing as far as making a decision. I tried to balanced everyone with some success at first, but finally it led to disaster.<P>I don't know if this helps...I suspect not because it points out a weakness that I had.. The only good thing that came out of my EA was that I have a better understanding of what my wife is going through with her lover.<P>I hope you find the answers you want and my prayers will be with you. I already admire you for staying with it all this time. My life began to crumble the first of February...I can't imagine going through it as long as you have, but I as you do, love my spouse very much and suspect I will be here as long as it takes.<P>Good Luck!!!<P>J Willy

Distressed,<P>Why did you go back to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>?...<P>Do you still have too much love for your H?...<P>Have you thought of going back to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>?... and sticking to it for a longer period of time.<P>Again... this is for you...<BR>...not necessarily to win back your H... but give yourself a real quantity of time to develop just yourself!<P>Prayers... <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 22, 2000).]

Distressed.<P>I can definately relate to your story except I have only been on this roller-coaster for about 4 months. <P>The plan a b switch is a hard call, but may make him make a decision. It is always so hard when there are children involved.<P>I did a sort-of plan b for a weekend and went back to plan a (plan b openned his eyes alittle, but i think it was much too soon in the fantasy)<P>My h will not talk about it either. His family has really given him a hard time. In the very beginning he said "I was never close to them anyway" which is a lie.<P>Now he has reached out to them. I am glad about that. I told them they could convey their unhappiness re: his choice's but let him know it is is choice, no one is forcing him to do anything.<P>Things here are beginning to really explode re: OP. My H seems in denial that there is a problem (he is even in counseling) but yesterday I was given a very small dim light at the end of the tunnel sign.<P>I have been incredibly detached re: OP. But have let my H know that I will do whatever it takes to protect my 2 children from the pain of having this thing blow up (This is a very intense, and dependent work EA (PA?) . She is married also with children and her H is really getting to the brink of losing his mind. I basically just stay to myself. <P>I am in control of myself and the children. That is all I can do. I haven't worked outside of the home in a half-adozen years but have been pretty much in control here too. I think my H. also needed to feel like he was special somewhere. Well, now he does!!!!!!<P>I think someone recommended the book "I don't want to talk about it" It is a great book. Pay attn to the chapter on addiction. It really openned my eyes. My H denies depression though. I can't make him open his eyes.<P>It is so sad. Such a waste of time and energy. You are in my thoughts today.

Hi Distressed, I don't know if this is helpful...but when my H had decided back in Sept to divorce me (he saw a lawyer and didn't set it in motion), he seemed a lot more at ease when he was with me, he says simply because he had come to a decision. Your H gave you the papers, it is now back in your hands. This is the stage I am at as well, only I served the papers and my H has 20 days to sign the waiver of acceptance. I'm not sure I actually want the responsibility of pursuing the divorce...and have actually reminded my H a couple times that he doesn't have to sign just yet...<P>If you don't want the divorce, you can slow the process down. It can still go ahead without your cooperation, but does your H want to bulldoze it through?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hi Distressed -<P>Sorry, but I sure don't have any of the answers you seek....I think whoever left these H clones for us gave you and me ones from the same batch.....must be the batch with the slow "reset to reality switches"!!! LOL!!!!<P>The only offering I can make is to do whatever your heart and instincts tell you to do......if you feel that this Plan A'ing has brought improvements (which I agree it has - a major one being the relationship with the youngest) and you can emotionally handle continuing it - then do so and keep the divorce business off to the side.<P>If you feel that your love for him is being lost - then Plan B with a set schedule for child visitation and at least try to keep the positives going with him and the kids.<P>I, as you know, don't have a choice about the divorce.....though God or the powers that be seem to be dragging it for me - which is perfectly fine with me! I figure that time is a friend to me in this situation.....even if it's years - it's not like I am up to running on to another relationship. NO WAY!!!!<P>I have a life with my family, friends, and trying to figure out how to make a decent living.....I kind of like having this time to straighten out ME!!! If it gives my H all the more time to see that the OW or whatever else seems to be so exciting in his life, will actually get as "old" to him as I did until he examines himself......then so be it!!!<P>Little by little things come out....small sentences that say a lot to me. I want to have more of those. Sounds like you are at least getting in some good recreation and family time in. I think that will go a long way. But like I said, it's whatever your feelings are saying to you.....you've done great so far. <P>You REALLY have....just think of his change with the baby!!! That's a hell of a lot to accomplish and it's all thanks to you.<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Wow! So many great comments and questions. I'll take a shot at them.<P>Reina - I am sure it is denial. It is much easier to walk away from everything than to look at what you've done, especially if it's this horrible (abandoning a newborn). In my research I ran across a type of affair called Split Self. This type occurs in long-term marriages with people that were good spouses and parents before and have not cheated. That was him. The affair seems so out of character as to nearly be unbelievable - not only to us but also to our beloved infidels. I don't even think my husband thinks he's having an affair! I hear him talk about other people that cheat in negative tones. It is amazing to me.<P>Nellie, I have read "I Don't Want to Talk About It" (along with everything else). Unfortunately, like so much of the literature, it helps you analyze and understand but offers no solutions. If I read anyplace again that the only thing I can do is wait for my husband to wake up and start addressing his own issues, I'm going to barf. By the way, my husband's family is full of conflict avoiders that wait forever to address an issue and then suddenly erupt arbitrarily with no turning back. The older brother and father have that trait in spades and there's evidence of it in the younger brother too. These are learned traits, no doubt about it.<P>J Willy, so sorry you're here joining the club, but I appreciate your comments. I think the conflicts within my husband are severe. He is not the type to be involved in an affair and he certainly wasn't raised that way. He's lost in all directions, from what I can see. I don't know whether the OW is pressuring him (since he discloses nothing), but I really haven't done it much myself. I do think he doesn't know which way to turn, and really believe that he finally filed for divorce out of RESPECT AND CONSIDERATION for me. It is now causing him additional conflict to see that I'm not just rolling over and going along with it (well, I sort of am, but I want my day in court first).<P>NSR, I've been around so long that my move from B back to A probably preceded your arrival (and I bet you feel you've been here forever). The main reason was the fact that my husband ditched the kids, primarily the baby, for that entire time. I couldn't live with the impact it had on them. I was in it for five solid months and he never saw our daughter. At one point, he went one month without talking to our seven year old son. Whatever the impact to the marriage may be, I am convinced I had to leave it and I could never do it again. Finally, after all this time, he's acting like a parent and expressing interest in both children. I take that as a major victory (the only one I have but it's a biggee).<P>As to whether I love him, I am quite confused about this. I thought I was done, but I'm finding that our interactions of late are meeting my emotional needs and making deposits back into my lovebank. Right now, I think that's a bad thing. I don't need to be developing additional attachments to him while we're getting divorced. I haven't figured out the right balance on this yet. I believe that my primary focus has to be to build a new life for myself, yet I'm having enormous trouble getting past the talking-about-it stage. I still, stupidly, have hope for my marriage.<P>Tootrusting, since I'm further along, I may have some relevant comments about the progression your husband is likely to go through (or at least what I have seen). At first, my husband was extremely angry at me (this seemed irrational at the time). He was losing weight and withdrawn. That lasted a couple of months. Then he got severely depressed. He started gaining weight and just talked about how "hopeless" everything was. The answer to every question was "I don't know" (that is, when I could ask him a question). He was oddly detached and couldn't follow conversations. Then, I went to Plan B. From all I can tell, he was depressed through the entire Plan B time. He gained 50 pounds in about six months (from a lean weight). When I left Plan B, he seemed ecstatic for a couple of months. I think he was relieved to see that he didn't need to lose everything because of what he had done, but he was prepared to lose it all, really like he had no choice in the matter. Since then, everything is great between us as long as I don't bring up any sensitive topics (the OW, our future, the divorce, the marriage, problems with the children, etc.). Once I do, I get all the "it's hopeless" answers once again with no detail about the problems. That has been the stalemate since June.<P>Lor, I think it may be true that he felt more comfortable with me when he was thinking the decision was made. It took some pressure off. Since his primary fear is that I might make him talk about it, he probably figured we would skip that step and jump right into splitting up assets. Now that he sees I won't go that way, he's backed off. I highly doubt that he'll bulldoze this through against my wishes. I also think he realizes it's reasonable to talk first - he just can't do it.<P>I'm thinking about strategies to make him open up. I feel strongly that I'm not signing any papers without a live discussion, but I don't intend to hold up the divorce indefinitely. I need closure on all of this - it's screwing up my entire life. For the moment, I'm playing it by ear.<P>Great comments. Thanks everyone.

Distressed,<P>Not much advise cause I know that you are a smart cookie and will figure it out one way or another one day. You got to do it at your own pace and in the way you feel comfortable. As you know my h and your h are very similiar in the conflict avoider area. My h too abandoned the children for many months. He too finally came around and is coparenting with me in a much more equal manner. I too read about the split self stuff and I had to apply much of that to my h's behavior. Fortunately my h goes to counseling and is on medication, so that has been a lifesaver. Although I think she is the one that talked him in to moving out and on. She believes in the individual over the family. <P>Well girl I know you have been hanging out for awhile. I am sorry he filed, but that really means nothing to a conflict avoider. I filed last March and Im still not divorced because he refuses to respond to anything I propose. My luck and I will get granted my divorce on my 18th wedding aniversary. I have to admit that I am much more happy now that i am out of limbo, and wondering if my marriage is going to survive or not. It felt really good to just let go and know that I tried but he just didn't want the marriage any more. Well girl take care i am thinking about you and hoping the best for you, you deserve it.<P>Gerri<p>[This message has been edited by Limerick (edited March 22, 2000).]

Just have time for a quick note. Sheba & Gerri I just want to thank you for your comments. I'm getting a bit more settled into my plan with time.<P>Sheba, I really agree with your comments and I know it's very much what you have done. I am not losing my love. My husband is being very nice and respectful now and both of us are enjoying our time together. He called me five times yesterday alone, mostly unnecessarily. I think he's extremely confused. I'm continuing on trying to build the relationship, but I'm also going to look at new relationships. I feel that I have to.<P>Gerri, this conflict avoidance stuff is incredible, almost unbelievable. I do think I can stall the divorce indefinitely, but I don't want to. I do want him to talk honestly to me and I want some understanding so I can have closure. Then, if divorce is what he wants, I'll probably let him go easily. Frankly, my guess is he doesn't know what he wants, but I don't think I can put my life on his timeline. I don't want to still be Plan Aing after a 35 year separation (do you think I'm exaggerating?).<P>Love you both and thanks a million.

Distressed,<P>Just reread my post and I laughted it will be my 19th wedding anniversary not the 18th how time flies when you are seperated. Been almost 2 years. So I guess in reality you could be seperated for years and years and it seems like months. Glad you are having some connection with your h. My h was so very very confused too. He still confuses me when he calls and talks about our life and our investments doing well, etc, Im like what's the "our" in two people living in two homes & living seperate lives and both of us involved with other people. G-luck<P>Gerri

Distressed,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...As to whether I love him, I am quite confused about this...<P>...but I'm also going to look at new relationships. I feel that I have to... <P>...if divorce is what he wants, I'll probably let him go easily... <P>...I don't want to still be Plan Aing after...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>All sounds like you should be back into <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> to keep you sanity!</B> Can it(<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>) be done with Children... yes... but takes a lot more scheduling! And yes... have him stay in his children's lives no matter what (Plan B, separation, divorce, whatever.)<P>Your <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Finally, after all this time, he's acting like a parent and expressing interest in both children.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...does mean their is a tie to you... it might be that he'd be willing to come back... but why drag it out?...<P>Your story sounds almost like Tim's(Medic's) but he is in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... having a <B>very</B> hard time with it... but getting a lot of encouragement.<P>If you seriouslu think of going back to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... how about giving <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley a call. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A>! When I think it will be my time for <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... I know I will. Just to easy my level of confusion. <P>Praying for you... <BR>For thoughtful direction in your life!<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 25, 2000).]