Anyone find the POJA, that all actions should be enthusiastically agreed upon, to be radical and yet wonderful?<P>It is obviously in conflict with the teachings that say a woman should obey her h.<P>In our case, the lack of POJA, my trying to "submit" to him, is largely what got us into this mess. I agreed to him working at a job that required lots of travel, while I raised the kids alone. Resentment built up. At first I felt like cheating on me was the way he paid me back for the sacrifices I made so he could have the "fun" job he wanted.<P>Now I see the importance of Harley's four rules. They are truly built on practical wisdom, true wisdom is a gift from God. And I see that there was a void in both our lives because we were not doing a great job meeting each other's needs.<P>We make decisions POJA, spend 15 hours a week having fun (used to think it was selfish to have fun together, that we had to spend all our free time at church or helping others), and seek to meet each other's needs. The lovebusters left by themselves when we started doing the other three. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Cindy,<BR>I forgot to address this in the other thread. The obey in the Bible is only when your H is being submissive to the Lord. When H is outside God's will, you have the right to disobey. The same applies to governement; when the government is outside God's will we are to change government. Thus the reason for the US. Taxation without representation was that argument.<P>As you said true wisdom comes from God. He created wisdom before He created anything else. This is covered in Proverbs 8. All those things that are right universally come from God. Society wants to think it came up with these concepts.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

I guess that is where we disagree. Our marriage is now based on doing what we mutually agree on. I don't obey him, he doesn't obey me.<P>I've heard what you said before. Problem is you don't know God's will except when it comes to direct moral commands. Most decisions we face as a couple are matters of personal taste and preference.<P>What color shirt should I wear today? Or is it ok with me if goes to dinner with a female co-worker? Or should I agree to his wanting a new car if we can afford it?

schizzo,<P>You said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is obviously in conflict with the teachings that say a woman should obey her h. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, it isn't. You see if you believe that is how you should treat your H and he agrees, then how does it conflict? You must understand, the bible is asking you to do this, but God does not make you do this.<P><BR>The same holds true for Christians. If this is your believe and you agree with you H that this is his belief as well, the where is the conflict? You cannot be made to obey, you must want to obey. Right?<P>Interestingly, religion does not make you do anything. It is a belief. If you believe you do these things willingly. If you don't believe the you won't do them willingly, then you should not do them.<P>It is this use of POJA that is actually buried in the scriptures. A husband and wife work together, they are joined in the eyes of God. This implies that they use the POJA or they aren't working together.<P>Did I make any sense? I hope so.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

This particular issue is one of the main reasons I'm not a "real" Christian. No way, no how am I submitting or obeying, in the true sense of the word, to any man (or woman either for that matter). God gave us all a free will, and I can't imagine that I'm supposed to hand that over to any earthly being just because he lucked out and got born with one of "those". Who decides if the husband is following God's will anyway? He could be a wacko like Kuresh,for instance. <P>I'll cast my vote for POJA any day!!

Cindy,<BR>I am sure you will disagree on this also but here goes. Every decision we make is either to do His will or not do His will. He is supposed to get all the glory, honor, and praise. When we obey we really are obeying God. Besides the word is not really obey. It is submit which is different and it is mutual. There are times when you won't agree and depending on who's territory it falls then that person should have the final say. Though it is best to enthusiastically agree which is in adherence with the Harley principles.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

TheStudent,<P>I'm with you 100%! obey? submit? not me! Both of those words make my skin crawl.

OK, so we might be getting into a discussion about religious beliefs, but I don't think that passage in the Bible is correct, either. I know that many people believe that the Word was given by God to those who wrote it down. But, let's remember that the Bible has been revised, interpreted and rewritten throughout the ages, by men, and flawed men at that. God gives us free will, and that includes the will and power to change the Word to fit what the writer wants it to say. Let's keep our sites on the real message - that when we love and honor each other, we willingly give to each other, and that may include agreeing to something that will make our partner happy while not being the most enjoyable thing for us. It's the making someone happy part that is the most enjoyable. Am I making sense here?

schizzo:<P>I'd completely agree with that stance. And I haven't read "Power of a Praying Wife", but from some of the threads that I lurked on, I was concerned that the interpretation was that the wife should shut up, pray, and hope that things get better.<P>There are times when this will work---especially when the way that you open your mouth is a lovebuster. But I think for a long-term solution, the POJA is really the way to go.

I admittedly have kind of a hybrid view of this issue.<P>First the POJA, in its origianal interpretation, does not work in my marriage. We are just too different (usually complimentary) to be enthusiastic about everything the other does at any given moment, much less join each other. It does work if I affirm that I enthusiastically want my H to pursue his dreams and act on his interests as long as he is not taking a unreasonable risk. I knew what he was like when I married him (although I naively thought he would grow out of it) and compromising those pursuits and dreams would be like chipping away at his very core personality. And I like him how he is. <P>My H never excludes me, always (sometimes I have to grit my teeth) involves our kids, and would never think of trying to run my life. He is fully supportive of what I want to do. So it works for us, but true POJAers would disagree.<P>Now on the obey/submit subject, PO brings up a good point that the two terms are not interchangable.<P>This whole submission idea (I believe) has been taken way out of context, and through the centuries, interpretted by men and has lost some of its historic context and has lost some clarity from its origional language (which I am too lazy to look up right now).<P>That said, I do believe that for whatever reason, a man is the head of his household. Not like a boss or a king or a dictator, but that it a Christian household, the Husband/Father is accountable to God. However, God expects much of the Husband as a servant leader in the home...to the point that God will not hear the prayers of a H who does not have a right relationship with his wife. Husbands are to love and care for their wives like they would for their own body. In this context, this would not leave much room for being demanding or dictorial. <P>When you put this in historical context, the ideas laid out here were radical. Up until this time women were little more than property. The Christian doctrines elevated women to a position they had never before been viewed. It is ironic that today we see these doctrines as confining and chauvinistic when it was really quite liberating and radical when it was written.<P>Plus as Christians we are all to submit to one another. This is not isolated to a woman's role as a wife.<P>From a practical standpoint, men generally need to be respected more than anything else (maybe except for sex...but even withholding sex without cause could be seen as disrepect). I think God calls women to respect their H's because that is what men need to carry out their role as a Servant Leader in the household and they need respect just to feel validated. In fact men may need respect in order to love their wives as God directs them to do.<P>Speaking in generalities again, women need to be loved and cherished. Now there are a variety of ways (Love Languages, His Needs/Her Needs) that is accomplished which may very greatly from woman to woman...as ways to respect a man varies greatly as well. But I think no matter in what "language" or through what "need" it is accomplished, men feel loved when respected and can then more easily love back and women feel loved when they feel cherished...and when cherished can more easily repect their husbands.<P>So God's direction is really a practical How To manual of sorts when it is taken in its balanced entirety. It is not intended to oppress women or give men the key to be the king of their castle.<P>So how does that work in my own life? That's a good question, because I can't think of anything that has happened in 17 years of marriage that I felt I "submitted" to anything. And since my own H is extremely self sufficient and values that quality in others, he is so not into <BR>controlling or even "taking care" of me. So ironically, even though we both understand and believe these to be our roles in marriage, it has never really been a factor in any actual events. Maybe because we understand these roles, neither of us push the envelope.<P>I do believe that ultimately his faith and how he seriously takes his commitment had a great deal to do with walking away from his affair before it really caught fire and thereby weakened his faith and his commitment.<P>Anyway, that's my view of this subject and for some reason I felt compelled to share it.<BR> <BR> <P><BR>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13<p>[This message has been edited by Faith Hope Love (edited March 23, 2000).]

<BR>FHL,<P>Have you read John Gottman's latest book, _The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work_? He has a section in the book on joint decision making, written in the context of each spouse respecting the other's input in decisionmaking. Gottman supports POJA, although he doesn't call it that specifically. Anyhow, he even tells this wonderful story about a Mormon family (the Mormons are pretty patriarchical, to be honest). The father in the family makes the decisions, and the rest of the family abides by these decisions. When asked how he makes the decisions, the father says something like, "My wife and I discuss it at length [implied meaning: My wife and I come to an agreement], and then I make the [formalize our] decision."<P>Bystander

Bystander,<BR>Actually it is on my "to read" pile under my bed!<P>Fortunately we spend our spare time in bed doing other things besides reading if we are both awake.<P>I will dig it out and have a look. Thanks!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

schizzo,<P>I will pull up to the top the thread on "submission" in the Women's bible study forum on the "Power of a Praying Woman".<P>You can decide for yourself what other women have learned from this book.<P>Needless to say this is a volitale subject and one that a debate does nothing to solve.<P>God Bless as you look for your answers,<P>Taj

I should probably stay out of this discussion, mainly because I don't see the man as "head of household" either. To me, that sets up a dynamic as "man up there, woman down there" that is usually disrespectful and prone to abuse, from what we've seen in our society. <P>I agree with FHL that, prior to Christianity, women were seen as property. However, we're still not quite there, in my mind, if we as women are asked to trade our own will (to be replaced by the husband's will if push comes to shove) in order to be "cherished". Woman is not an independant person in her own right STILL, but is rather more like a beloved pet that is "cherished" as long as she is on good behavior. I (as a woman) require respect too. Ok, enough from me. I think everyone knows where I stand on this issue. I don't want to cut down anyone's beliefs...<P>FHL, <BR>I think that your husband respects your autonomy, and as you said, has no need or desire to push the envelope. That would be enough for me. If the envelope is never pushed, I could pretend that it doesn't exist.

<BR>FHL,<P>Gottman's book is an easy read (and you'll like it, I bet). It focuses on the dynamics of marriage, including the things that successful couples do. It also discusses male/female differences in interacting.<P>David Schnarch's _Passionate Marriage_ is more difficult to read, but IMO its even better. It focuses more on the individual within the marriage.<P>This is a rough description, but I see Gottman's book as "top down" and Schnarch's book as "bottom up." Gottman discusses strategic philosophies (e.g., in successful marriages, spouses honor each other's dreams), whereas Schnach discusses tactical realities (e.g., the low desire partner in a marriage controls the amount of sex, or whatever else is under discussion). As you've probably guessed, I'm a huge fan of both of these guys. Happy reading! <P>Bystander

The Student,<P>As Christians we certainly submit to God and are directed to "Love our neighbor as ourselves" and other directive about putting others first. So I never had a huge problem with the concept.<P>Men and women are equal in God's eyes and equal within a marriage, but with different roles and responsibilities which does not make their relationship heirarchal, unless we look at it out of context in a more secular fashion.<P>If a leader looks at himself as a servant then there is no control or demands.<P>If a leader makes his own rules contrary those laid out, then he is not living within God's will in the relationship and the "deal is off" anyway.<P>Your right about my H, by the way. Although in the past, this automomy may have made our relationship vunerable to the affair since we may be as touch feely soal mate type intimate as other married couples, I think we have learned much and corrected the balance. To be honest, we both enjoy a certain amount of "space" in our relationship since we are so different. We need to be careful to communicate effectively and maintain emotional intimacy.<P>Bystander...I know you recommended Passionate Marriage before. Although I have fingered it in bookstores quite a few times, I wanted to read some of the stack under my bed first. I will get around to it. Guess it is a good sign reading isn't my top priority right now. Thanks for the reminder. Next book order it is on the list!<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nomoreu:<BR><B>OK, so we might be getting into a discussion about religious beliefs, but I don't think that passage in the Bible is correct, either. I know that many people believe that the Word was given by God to those who wrote it down. But, let's remember that the Bible has been revised, interpreted and rewritten throughout the ages, by men, and flawed men at that. God gives us free will, and that includes the will and power to change the Word to fit what the writer wants it to say. Let's keep our sites on the real message - that when we love and honor each other, we willingly give to each other, and that may include agreeing to something that will make our partner happy while not being the most enjoyable thing for us. It's the making someone happy part that is the most enjoyable. Am I making sense here?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But your rephrasing is what the Bible says. You didn't say anything new. That is what God says is the way to deal with the issue.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Well, this brings back memories!!<P>I married a man that at worst I would have no problem "submitting" to. He has always treated me as an equal partner.<P>And yet, I could often be sold into a grudging agreement for something he really wanted. Like him taking a job (for the third time) that would require him to travel so much). Nomoreu, I wanted to do it for him, but it got us in trouble. I felt more and more I had to do what he wanted for "us" to survive.<P>POJA is totally different. And it has another advantage. If things don't turn out a certain way, I can never go back and say I was against it. Yes, I'm guilty there too.<P>He still has the same job, though we are pulling a lot of stunts to travel with him. For the first time, he was willing to give it up even though he loves it. And he has brought the travel down a lot.<P>Don't know where it will all lead, but it is so different knowing he is committed to not doing anything without POJA. I am now his biggest supporter with his work because of this. We are on the same side!!!<P>

This is an interesting topic. I agree with FHL completely in that the concept of "submission to your husband" has been taken out of context. When two partners are not into a power struggle per se, I think this is a positive way for a marriage to work. But too many times it ends up being the stronger personality that takes over (unwittingly). If the husband is more of the laid back non-decisionmaker type, the wife takes responsibility for many of the decisions in the marriage and this is just fine for the husband. But what if she starts to resent his lack of strength and starts seeing him as being somewhat wishy/washy? This can create conflict and her respect for him starts going down tremendously. And it works both ways, the husband may feel as if his wife is too dependent upon him for her happiness and this can create problems as well. I know this issue has played a big part in my own marriage.

Considering that much of the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic (a dead language at this point, is it not?) then translated into Greek or written in Greek and from there into many other languages, and considering that the languages of many other cultures contain words and concepts that do not even EXIST in the English language, how can we all be so certain that the word "submit" is even a true translation of what God's intent was?<P>One of the same passages which talks of wives submitting to husbands also talks of women not speaking in church meetings. Another of those passages speaks several lines later of slaves submitting to their earthly masters. So let's talk about submitting here... how many people here believe that women should not speak in church? And how many people here believe that human beings should be in slavery to other human beings.<P>This has been my problem with such literal interpretation of the Bible. As was pointed out earlier, humans have free will, AND humans make their own interpretations of what God's words meant to them, and passed those little slants down within a series of severely patriarchal cultures... So we get "wives, submit to your husbands...." But we don't know WHAT the original words were, now, do we?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>