Bystander,<BR>I thought somemore about your question. I won't be getting married again, but just for the sake of argument, I'll answer the question. <P>You asked:<BR>When you remarry, TS, would you confess again if you had an affair? Would you confess if<BR>your husband told you unequivocally that he'd want to know if an affair ever happened?<BR>Just curious.<P>If I cheated in theoretical marriage number three I would not confess. It is likely that I would file for divorce pretty quick because I wouldn't like lying and I wouldn't like being in the marriage after a confession either, because I would never feel like an equal again. However, I would only take with me those things I had before I was married. He wouldn't lose out financially. I might tell him the truth eventually, but only after a divorce and the dust had settled. I'd distribute whatever was left of my "estate" to my family, give my dogs to my friends, and go find the highest building and jump off of it. <P>The reason that I know this is that many months ago I briefly attempted "dating" one guy. Anyway, in the course of getting to know each other, he asked me if I cheated on my ex. I lied. It became clear to me then that there is no situation where I would feel comfortable having an intimate relationship in the foreseeable future. A week or so after reaching this conclusion, I stopped dating him. I did feel bad about lying, but I also knew it was impossible for me to remain in a relationship where someone knows about my past. I haven't dated anyone since. <P>Just so you know, I did recently tell the guy I dated the truth, but since we are no longer hanging out, I don't care what he thinks about my life. He was a little upset that I lied, but I don't care. I know what the outcome would have been if I told the truth, and I'm glad I broke up with him first, on my terms. <P>What I learned from all of this is that nothing you do after an affair makes any difference. Nobody I may meet in future knows what I did to try and save my marriage. Nobody cares about how I felt before the affair. I paid the price, and I refuse to let anyone judge or punish me ever again. The real TRUTH is only known by myself and my ex, because we were the only ones who were there. <P> <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 18, 2000).]

<BR>TS,<P>In a way, I'm not surprised to hear you say that you'd never reveal an affair to your third husband. I think you're still hurting from what happened to you in your last marriage, and you're throwing up every possible barrier to avoid getting hurt again. <P>I mean, it makes defensive "sense" to dictate your relationship terms. Confessing in your last marriage detonated in your face, so why risk ever confessing again, right? There's a seeming logic to that.<P>But while its internally consistent, its also invalid. The great marriages come from honesty. Earlier I posted about self-validation, the act of disclosing something to our spouse that isn't positive. Its an act of bravery to do that, but its also quite liberating. Why?<P>Because if you think its good to feel wanted when your spouse only knows about your positive qualities, imagine how much better it feels when your spouse wants you *even after* learning something negative about you. And yes, having an affair might scare off some prospective husband - but then, you'd have to ask yourself if you'd want to marry someone like that in the first place. The irony is that YOU will never know, because you're unwilling to talk about your past, and what you've learned from your experiences, with a prospective mate!<P>Finally, I think that the desire to be fully known by another human being influences your behavior. The old saying, "You can't take it with you" refers to money. But the saying doesn't apply to who we are as humans. If we refuse to tell someone else who we really are (and yes, including tales of infidelity), then in a philosophical sense, does it really matter that we even lived? To disclose everything is to assert who we are, and that we existed. And really, you're far too assertive for me to believe that you'll take your secrets to the grave. I know you're not strong enough to tell your next husband this stuff, but you will be in time. And when you get to that point, you'd certainly reveal an affair to him, too. JMO.<P>Bystander

Bystander,<BR>what is ironic is that I divulged everything about my life to my second husband before we got seriously involved. It was like "here I am, take it or leave it". Well, he stayed with me, and for the longest time I did have that feeling of self-validation you are talking about.<P>However, a couple of times before we were married, and even more so after we were married, he started throwing these things up in my face. That hurt so very much, that I had trusted him with my deepest secrets, and now he was throwing them back at me. That was more of a betrayal to me than if he had cheated, believe it or not. <P>For quite a long time, I felt like it was just his problem and his insecurities. I'd ask him what did he possibly have to benefit from tearing me down? But it would not stop. After awhile, I think I started to believe all the awful stuff he'd say. That is when I became vulnerable to an affair. <P>This is another reason why I am having a hard time disclosing my life. He waited a good long time, long enough to be attached to him and feel dependent upon him, before he started this behavior. It was abuse. Plain and simple. After my confession, not only did he throw up at me every not-so-pretty thing in my past, but he told all his friends, family and even a few co-workers about my life. It was incredibly cruel. I'm convinced that my ex did his absolute best to try to destroy me, and he just about has.<P>So when this guy I dated expected me to spill my guts when I hardly knew him, it was a major red flag to me. So far, I have been able to tell a few select people about my past, but only those who never asked in the first place. It seems to me that the only people that have to ask have another, less kindly, agenda.

Hey,<BR>me again. hope I'm not just having a converstion with myself <P>I just got done talking to the guy I used to date, the one I talked about above. He lives nearby, and I happen to see him sometimes when I'm walking my dog(s). I told you about my little confession to him, and how it put me off that he asked about my marital past. Well, tonight I found out why he asked. You see, he told me that he is/was attracted to a married woman. He told me because he wanted me to feel like (I guess) that I'm not the only one who goes through stuff like that. Well duh. I think he has other reasons for telling me, but anyway, it was an opportunity for me to help someone else's marriage maybe. Man, I'm so glad I ended it before it got any farther!!!<P>He says nothing happened. I could care less about what he did, but I do care for this woman's marriage. You'll be happy to know that I told him all the standard Harley stuff, like...<P>1) stay away.<P>2) don't talk about her marital situation with her.<P>3) if you think you are safe, you are NOT.<P>4) if you do end up having sex with her, she will most likely ruin her marriage, regret it for the rest of her life, and will most definately end up hating you.<P>Happy?

<BR>TS,<P>So you know of the truly wonderful feelings that self-validation can bring. This is good news to me.<P>We keep coming back to this: You did the right thing in confessing your affair to your husband. What your husband did with that knowledge, and the knowledge about your deepest, darkest secrets, was reprehensible. It was truly wrong. But please place the blame for the ugliness where it belongs: On your ex-H, not on marital honesty.<P>I'm in agreement with JL, though. IMO, you are profoundly unhappy right now. You need to heal from all the damage that your ex-H did. But I really believe that you're an assertive enough woman that you'll want to self-validate again in your life. You've told me you've experienced what that feeling is like. And when you get to that point, total honesty in your third marriage will be second nature - and yes, a little birdie tells me that you'll be getting married again someday <P>Bystander

Regardless of my current opinion of men, marriage is not an institution that serves women like me in most cases, IMO. I have observed that most successful career-oriented women are not married. Just the reverse is true for men. Most successful men ARE married. Marriage can be useful to women, mainly if they want to raise children and perhaps don't have the desire or skill to be financially independent. However, marriage for me is inherently oppressive. I have no use for it.<P>If someone asked me to marry them now, I'm sure I would be, what is the word (?), insulted. I'm not applying for the job of surrogate maid, cook, nurse, mommy, sex slave, or whatever else needs taking care of by mr. whomever. If they want a friend, I can be that without selling my soul till-death-do-us-part.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 21, 2000).]

<BR>TS,<P>When you find the right partner, you can make a marriage whatever you want it to be. Its funny, but all of the successful women I know are married. Their relationships are probably more egalitarian than "traditional" marriages, but still, they are happily married. I think you'll join their ranks eventually. Not while you're in school, and maybe not for some time. But eventually. <P>Bystander

Bystander,<BR>I thought somemore about the issue of self-validation. It comes to mind that the only time self-validation feels good is when divulging one's secrets results in validation, not punishment.<P>I thought that I had received self-validation when I told my second H about my life, but later found out is was mostly a big hoax. It was information that was used to maintain control.<P>If someone had gone to prison, served their time, and had honestly reformed their life, what would you suggest if they could not find a job because of their prison record? I would suggest that they make an honest attempt to tell the truth first, and see what happens, but that if telling the truth left them with no job and the alternative was a continued life of crime, I would suggest that they lie on their application.<P>Ever see Les Miserables? Jean Valjean goes to prison for some ridiculous period of time for stealing a loaf of bread, and afterwards is faced with a choice to lie about his prison record or carry a card forever and be branded for life. He lied, and lead an exemplary life. His guilt at being a convict followed him for life (as my infidelity will), but his current life would not have been possible if he stuck to "total honesty".<P>Well, that is where I stand. The kind of man who would accept a woman with two divorces and one where she cheated is not the kind of man I'd want. So I have three choices, basically. <P>1) Accept whatever bottom-feeders would find my past acceptable (usually men who are looking for short-term satisfaction IMO).<P><BR>2) Find a way to put my past behind me, and "lie" to any future guy. We could discuss all day what a lie is, but I'm under the assumption that no one but my ex and I have any idea what the real truth is. Most people are going to make up their own stories anyway, no matter what I tell them. <P>If you tell me that I'm being a hypocrite by expecting truth from someone else while I justify lying, I'll have to agree. I'd rather be a hypocrite than give anyone that knowledge about my past and risk having it used to hurt me. That is just the way it is. I'm also not so naive as to believe that total honesty on my part will produce honesty from the other person. This web site proves that fact. <P>I'm sure my ex still feels he had nothing to do with the breakdown of my marriage, as does the OM. They are both doing great now! The OM is engaged and my second ex had no problems finding dates after our divorce. So, it is all, finally, a state of mind. <P>3) Remain alone. <P>I'm sure I won't want to remain alone forever. After I get through qualifiers, I'll work on coming up with a plausible story. It won't be that hard. The divorce papers say "irreconcilable differences", and it is clear that my second H filed. So, I could make up anything I want, and will.

<BR>TS,<P>Self-validation is the good feeling that comes from being known by another human being. Your ex-H's horrible conduct has really done a number on you, I'm afraid. You're basically sacrificing the opportunity to share who you really are (affair and all) with someone in your future, and for what? The opportunity to live your life in a sham marriage? I mean, how fulfilling is that? It isn't fulfilling at all, and you know it. I'm not going to bother calling you a hypocrite, because when push comes to shove, and you're with someone who truly loves you, TS, you'll WANT to disclose your past.<P>Formally, the fallacy of your position is that only bottom feeders would want you. No man in his right mind would blame you for divorcing a man who had 20+ one night stands on you. And while the fact that you had a brief affair would certainly give me pause personally, I'd have to consider it in the context of *why* you had an affair and evaluate your likelihood of doing something like that to *me*. In fact, because you're so well-versed in the price an affair can extract(!), I could see someone finding you *more* marriageable.<P>TS, your past isn't something to run from. Its who you are. If you're strong enough to stand up for women's rights all the time, why aren't you strong enough to stand up for yourself?<P>Bystander

Hello you two,<P>Bystander, I'm not sure we've ever posted back and forth on a thread but I've read some of your stuff and you make a heck of a lotta sense to me. <P>TS and I have posted back and forth a number of times although it's been awhile, eh? I hope you're doing okay? Hope school is going well.<P>Suse and I haven't posted much of late... between being busy with other things in our lives along with feeling less connected to the group. It's been well over a year since we first logged on and there aren't too many of the "old-timers" still posting. But once in awhile we peek in.<P>TS, I'm sitting here recalling some of the philosophies you, JustLearning and I shared a few months back. Isn't it interesting how Old Farts like us feel so determined to help you reach your potential?<P>See, for us... that's what it's all about... squeezing as much out of every moment of life as we can possibly do. I think I can speak for JL (maybe even for you on this Bystander) when I say that I see so much potential in you, TS. So much to share, so much to gain. You have the opportunity to really make a difference in some people's lives. And...in your own.<P>Bystander's right. So is JL. A good marriage is one of the most rewarding and satisfying things we can achieve in this life. Yes, it's rare to see a couple get to that deeply soul-satisfying state. But, because the odds are against it, does that mean it should not be attempted?<P>Suse and I have been good friends for a long, long time. Even during the bad times in our 25 years of being together, we were still friends. Even during times we'd considered divorce, we were pretty good friends.<P>But, marriage offers more than that. It's the opportunity for deep-down connectedness with another person. There's an intensity to it that cannot be matched. That's why two people should want to be married. Nothing else offers that potential.<P>I choose Suse every day. She chooses me. We honor each other. We revel in each other's company. When one is hurting, the other is there. When one is afraid, the other will be strong. We share each other's joy. We share each other's sorrow. There is such a bond... such a trust.<P>TS... you've been burnt twice. These events do NOT define who you are. True, they are a part of who you are, but they do not limit who you are. Your husband did an awful thing. He did his best to wound you where it's hardest to heal: your soul.<P>And you? I think there are many times when you choose to agree with him. Maybe you think he's right? You're some awful person? I choose to see the good in you. There are others here who do as well. Don't let your husband's awful actions limit who you can become. That, would truly be a shame.<P>You wrote, "nothing you do after an affair makes any difference". My experience is just the opposite, and in two ways. One: everything you do after an affair makes a difference. Every day of your life makes a difference. And...we make our world better. We learn, we teach.<P>The second opposite? I might argue with you that "nothing" you do BEFORE an affair makes any difference. An experience so intense always changes one's life. It's what you DO with that experience that helps define who you are. Remember both Suse and I fell into such despair, we'd both had an affair? Well, we don't pretend they didn't happen. We accept them. And... go on.<P>There are so many points you've made on which I'd like to offer you an alternative. I'll save most of them for another time. There's one that can't wait... your conclusion that you only have three alternatives in your life when it comes to intimate relationships. You say you either have to accept "bottom- feeders" who really only want superficial things. Or you have to lie and be a hypocrite. Or, you have to stay alone.<P>I believe there's another way. You can be who you are. And you can be loved for it. I believe there are good men out there who would love and respect you for being who you are.<P>And, intimacy is not just about friendship. It's the potential for love. Long-lasting, complex love. The many varieties of it for which the Greeks have such expressive words.<P>You have that potential, TS. I sense you won't be complete in your life unless you seek it. The opportunity to both give and receive.<P>Think about it?<P><P>------------------<BR>I'm just a pilgrim on this road, boy. 'Til I see thee... fare-thee-well. Steve Earle

Hey D-mac,<BR>Good to hear from you!!<P>I'm very glad you and Suse have reached that point in your marriage. Truly, I am. I do *appear* to be drowning in hopelessness, and there are days I feel like that. There are other days when I feel that it is just being realistic.<P>I don't believe what my second H thinks about me. I DO believe that most people believe like he does, and I'm not in the mood to deal with those people. That is my reason for concealing my past. I'm also not in the mood to be anyone's example. In the past few months, I've come across two men, both WERE friends of mine who are facing issues of infidelity. One of them is attracted to a married woman (the guy I mentioned in this thread). The other cheated on his girlfriend of 6 years and eventually dumped her for a girl he met in a bar and was cheating with for 6 months. They both came to me for advice because of my experience. Ya know what? I was kind of disgusted with both of them. <P>The first one said stuff like "But what if she wasn't cheating?", basically looking for some way he could rationalize sleeping with her that is not harming her marriage. I told him "Oh yea, right...like, me and my husband have an agreement. Give me a break. They all say that". ICK. The second wanted some validation for his new relationship. ICK. These are the kind of bottom-feeders I am referring to. Men who find my past acceptable because they want to forgive themselves for being shallow and selfish in pursuing sexual adventure. <P>Either way, I don't want this experience. <P>You said:<BR>And, intimacy is not just about friendship. It's the potential for love. Long-lasting, complex love. The many varieties of it for which the Greeks have such expressive words.<P>The kind of love I want doesn't exist in most romantic relationships. There are a few exceptions, like you and Suse for instance. The point is you didn't give up on each other. You have every right to be hopeful. You took a chance, and you came out ahead. I can't afford to take that chance again. You didn't know that I actually attempted suicide after my first husband divorced me, but it didn't work. Painkillers and vodka. Not enough apparently. My second H knew this. He knew this and STILL thought it was acceptable to trash me. He is evil. <P>After my second divorce, I was suicidal for months. Had to remove the guns and pain killers from my home. I can't go there again. I just can't.<P>I like analogies, as you can tell...If I damaged my knees, and suffered through many painful operations in order to walk again, I think I'd be pushing my luck to expect to run again. I'd rather try to accept my injury, and find other satisfying activities that won't involve injuring my knees to the point where I may not even be able to walk in the future. We could discuss whether I've reached my full potential by not "running" ever again. Right now, I'm going through the stages that people go through when they are trying to accept their disability. That is all. <P>Bystander,<BR>I'm not proposing to live in a sham marriage. I don't want a third marriage. I might want to be involved in a sexual type relationship in the future, and I won't tell about my past. My past experiences make up who I am today. However, they can "love" me for who I am today without knowing all the details about how I got here. If I am truly confident in myself and current choices, then I have no need or desire to have anyone validate them for me. If someone finds it necessary to extricate them from me, then I've got to believe they have another agenda in mind. And it ain't a charitable one. <P>Everybody has had painful experiences in their life. I have no desire to re-live them or keep unearthing them with guy dujour so that he can tell me "You're OK". I already know that.

One more thing,<P>Bystander,<P>You said:<BR>TS, your past isn't something to run from. Its who you are. If you're strong enough to stand up for women's rights all the time, why aren't you strong enough to stand up for yourself?<P>I stand up for women's rights because my gender is not something I can do anything about, short of getting a sex change operation. However, I can refuse to buy into the collective idea of what women are supposed to be. My activism is part of my philosophy that goes something like "stop complaining and do something about it". As an activist, I also know that the price women pay for their indiscretion is much,much higher than men pay. Most men have no problems finding partners who will overlook their past or even current infidelity. This is not the case for women. That is just how the world is. <P>What I've learned is that most people consider infidelity as something that completely overshadows every other thing that I "am". Like I said, nobody cares what my marriage was like before the affair (cause that would be considered "justification"). Nobody cares what I did to save my marriage. Nobody really cares about what else I have done with my life or how I treated my H. All they can see is the infidelity. Even you believe that my H was justified in divorcing me. So, go ahead and think that. My punishment began and ended with my H. End of story. <P>By refusing to divulge my past, I AM standing up for myself. I'm standing up for the idea that whomever comes along (male, female, whoever) will have to judge me for what they see today. If they want to know me, they'll just have to be observant, rather than relying on tired stereotypes. <P>When I was 10, I stole a candy bar. Does that make me a thief? I killed my cousin's hamster when I was 5, before I knew what death was and felt really bad about it. Does that make me an animal abuser? I slept with the guy I was dating after my high-school prom. That supposedly made me a "s*ut" to my ex, which he wouldn't let die for 8 friggin' years!!!! These are relatively "silly" things that most people wouldn't feel compelled to confess. Yet, somehow I'm supposed to assume that infidelity defines me forever and that I must confess to some new person. All "confessing" will do is open me up to continued punishment and insecurity. Not going there. My sentence over is over. I'm not on probation, either. I've served my "time" and refuse to be branded for life. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 26, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>I guess I can't resist this line of discussion, but please note that I have resisted for over a week . And you know I have lots of advice .<P>But I'll tell you two things I would really want to know of a prospective wife, if she had your experiences. <P>One, you have attempted suicide once and contemplated it a second time. The second would be how you handled the responsibility of having your H's life in your control.<P>Why would I want to know the first? Well, if I was romantically invovled with you I would need to know how sensitive you are to certain things. How you tend to handle very emotional events. (Right now you plan to avoid them for the rest of your life.) <P>For me knowing that you were not the most stable person would not be turn off but it would make me cognizant of your responses to certain situations and I would try my best to be with you if you were to experinece them.<P>So point one would be crucial information in my book.<P>The second thing would be your response to having your H's career and life in your hands. No matter how reluctant he was to keep his promise he did it. He gave up job, career, house and friends to join you. Your reponse was to bail. You can call it infidelity you can call it whatever you want, but bottom line it seems that you bailed because you did not want him dependent on you. <P>Your interpretation is you did not want an unlevel playing field, or being in debt. But what I would interpret it as, is that you did not want the responsibility of him. You could handle yourself but not both of you. <P>Why would I need to know that? Well, it isn't a show stopper either, but I would know that I needed to be independent of you at some level so as not to threaten you. <P>I had an Aunt who no one seemed to be able to get along with. When I was just married my wife and I moved near where she lived. I informed my wife that we could get along well with the Aunt as long as we kept the ledger even. If she invited us over, we invited her over and so forth. We got along with her famously. It was no big deal it just took knowing the type of person she was. In fact she absolutely loved our son and she had had no children and didn't really like them.<P>So, I would say that "confession" to another person is not necessary, but "informing" them about certain aspects of your life is necessary. Just for your information, I don't know if my wife was a virgin when we married and if not who or how many times she slept with someone. It was not important to me then and it is not important to me now. I think you will find that most men are like that really.<P>Please think about what I have said.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hey there TS,<P>Nice to see ya! <P>You always make so much sense. Logical. Thoughtful. Introspective. Independent. Considerate. Shall I go on? Hmmm. Methinks it would be a long list of positives. <P>I really enjoy dialogue with you. It's always challenging and stimulating. And....I DO mean cerebrally! Allll guys aren't pigs, yanno. <P>Seriously, I don't in any way discount most of what you say. I easily accept that your feelings are valid, they are real, and you live with them everyday. Yep, I frequently see men who don't respect or accept women. I also see the reverse. It's a shame, actually. But, I tend to compartmentalize a bit. Not bad people, just not my style. <P>I also understand about being incapacitated. Good analogy. I've been physically competitive all my life. My knees are shot and so are my ankles. As a result, I'll never dunk a basketball again without the help of a chair. I haven't scored 20 points a game since I can remember.<P>But...I still play. I compete intensely and with guys in their prime. Some weren't born when I was at my best. LOL I do my best to be realistic about what I can and cannot do. I use my maturity and experience to my advantage. Yep, and most days, I accept my limitations. <P>But, I still love the game. The cameraderie, the exhilaration, the challenge. Yanoo, I have come to love the process more than the product. C'est trop simple mais tres difficile, n'est pas?<P>Yes, I do know very well you had thoughts of suicide after your second marriage broke. And, I can't even put into words how stunned I was to read so. As said so many times... you have so much potential, so many capabilities. It physically moves me to think of you hurting yourself.<P>You're beautiful. You're unique. And I fully say that not having ever seen anything of you but what you write. And, that's something wondrous.<P>You are by no means "typical". You have gifts and skills not inherent in the "typical" person. They're a blessing and a curse. Just by definition that makes you different. That by nature can make it uncomfortable to fit into "typical" social situations or social norms.<P>I know somewhat of what it is like to feel that way. I've had trouble over my lifespan with feeling different. But, somewhere along the way something changed in me. Not only do I accept who I am and what I am, I take every opportunity to revel in that uniqueness. And...find others who feel the same way.<P>Betcha see where I'm heading with this, huh? You're too damn perceptive. <P>Every day of life has the potential to be celebrated. In ways unique unto yourself. And...what I'm saying is that there are people out there to celebrate with. On your terms.<P>No, I'm not saying you have to be married to be a whole person. I believe just the opposite. The best marriages are made amongst people who are "whole" themselves. I'm also not recommending you rush into another intimate relationship. I can intuit pretty well how wounded you have been. It takes time to heal.<P>If I can do one thing for you...one little thing... it's to help a bit with that. To reinforce your willingness to hope. Does that sound strange? I love serendipity. Things unexpected from an unexpected direction. Do you? It's almost always rewarding. So, consider this a little offering from someone you don't even know.<P>I see a joy in you. And, I see a spark of hope. I believe you're capable of more. And, if I can help you make one little step in that direction, then I'll celebrate as well.<P>------------------<BR>I'm just a pilgrim on this road, boy. 'Til I see thee... fare-thee-well. Steve Earle

JL,<P>I'm starting to get a little upset. I think I've stated the following before:<P>1) My H did NOT give up his career, friends, whatever. Almost all of his friends had moved up to Atlanta recently. He was closer to his friends than he had been in years.<P>2) He did not give up his career either. Actually, he DOUBLED his salary!!<P>3) We had to sell our home. Ok. He said when we bought it that we could sell it in five years. We kept it for four. <P>4) He had agreed years before that we could move after he had kept his job for about two years. He had it for three. <P>Get the picture? I agreed to all of these things because I loved him and supported his goals, and believed that we could both meet our goals if we could both give and compromise a little. What I found out was that it was all one-sided. I give, he takes. He gives, but I had to put a flame under his butt to do so. He was "there" for me in body ONLY.<P>I met each and every one of his conditions PRIOR to going back to school, and he STILL gave me a holy ration of S*IT. I have no friggin clue WHY!! I cheated on him because I had done absolutely everything I was supposed to do, and everything I said I would do, and it STILL was not enough!!!! He left because he NEVER LOVED ME IN THE FIRST PLACE. I cheated because I felt my whole marriage had been a lie. After I confessed, I found out I was correct. <P>His anger, criticism, condecension, and lying about his promised support was the problem. His anger problem did not start with my "affair". It went on a good two years before I left. He did everything he could to intimidate me and degrade my goals. If I told him I would not go, he wouldn't hear for that either. He was abusive and mean. I should have divorced him, but was too chicken. <P>For some reason, you just don't buy that. You think that just because he moved to be with me that he was some great guy. I guess that makes him better than most guys, but most guys SUCK in the support dept., so big deal!! <P>Also, I was not in debt. I PAID UP FRONT, DAMMIT. HE was the one in debt, and he didn't like it!! He wouldn't even acknowledge that he was in debt to ME. Why? Because, like a typical A**HOLE man, he took my support for granted!! And ya know what? My second H was better than most I've seen, and if that is as good as it gets, then JL my friend, I can do without. <P>My second H was independent of me. His parents gave him loads of cash every year (about 15,000). They are millionaires. He is a software engineer. He can get a job anywhere. That really is not the problem. The problem is that he wanted ME to be dependent on him. He wanted my life to revolve around him. He thought that his needs were more important than mine. <P>My ex had never been desperately poor, like I had been, and never would be, thanks to his parents. I know what it is like to be truly hungry, have bad teeth, count every penny to put gas in the tank to go to work. He expected me to put my life in his hands, which I did for awhile. When he had a hard time supporting me, it became clear that once again, I was mistaken to trust someone like that. That is why I became suicidal again. Now I know that I will never, ever put my life in someone else's hands like that ever again. To do so is to literally risk my life. Anybody I'm with will have to understand that. <P>Yep, I attempted suicide once and considered it a second time. That is my personal warning that I cannot handle divorce. Those are the only two times that I've ever considered it. <BR>So, I'm not getting married again, hence, no divorce. Actually, if someone did ask me to marry them, that is what I would tell them. Marriage = divorce = death in my mind, and I can't go there. It is too dangerous for me. <P>So, if my second H was so terrible, then why am I still mad? Because he was better than most. We were equal in every way but one, and that was our careers. Inequality is something I have to deal with every day in my job. It is not something I will tolerate in my personal life. That is my condition to even "play the game" in my estimation. Cause, I don't need it otherwise.<P>I feel no responsibility to "inform" anyone either. If some guy has a wife-shopping "list" he needs to check off, that is his problem, not mine. I told my second H that I tried to commit suicide after my first H divorced me. That didn't stop him from abusing me. He even told me he "wished I would jump off a bridge" and "gimme my key, cause I don't want you doing it my house" <P>Nope, more information means just more ammunition to do damage. I do believe that you have my best interest at heart, but I'm telling ya, I'm not going there. <P>Dmac,<P>Thanks for your encouragement. <BR>I know there are people out there to celebrate with. I'm not a hermit. I have friends and do fun stuff. I'm not suicidal anymore. I've gotten some good counseling from the college. THANK GOD. I resisted going back to counseling for a long time because none of the other ones could understand why it was so important to me to go back to school. <P>Coming from a college (and this one in particular), I believe the counselors are very well equipped to deal with high achieving type personalities.<P>I know all guys aren't pigs. I know I sound like that alot. Maybe it's just these engineering types I'm surrounded by. My counselor said that engineers tend to be more conservative, and I believe that. It is possible that I need to just get out and find some people who can think outside the box.<P>Wanna hear something cute? I'm getting massages every week now as a prep for qualifiers (which are next week, oh ma god!!). My second H, the guy I dated for a little while, and now my massage therapist are all french-canadian. Hmmm.<P>Getting massages are almost as good as sex cause<BR>1) I'm naked<BR>2) I've got some cute guy rubbing oil all over me. Discreetly, and professionally, of course.<BR>3) When he's done, I don't feel guilty about not giving him one <P><BR>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 26, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 26, 2000).]

Boy, I am the blabbermouth today <P>I can't lay off this either, JL, until we come to an understanding <P>My problem is that I can't trust anyone. I don't think you understand what a huge leap of faith *I* took by coming to school. I was quitting my job to go to one of the top schools in the country. Granted, they gave me a scholarship. I had every reason to feel confidant, but I wasn't. I hadn't been in school for years and was absolutely terrified of failing. You don't understand how scary it was for me to trust my H to support me. When he had a hard time, and started taking it out on me, it was clear that I had good reason to be afraid.<P>The message my H sent me when he had a hard time was that the only way he felt comfortable supporting me was when everything was going HIS way. How hard is that? Not hard at all!! <P>You mentioned that you thought that I had a hard time having him be dependent on me, and that is not true at all. One of his dreams was to start his own photography business. I told him that after I graduated and started working again, that he could quit his job and do that if he wanted. <P>We got married at a yacht club. His parents own a house on the water in the Boston area, and another house on the water in Florida. When they pass away, my ex will be the executor of a very sizeable estate. All attractive things, you would think, for someone who is so afraid of poverty like me. However, those "things" were never mine. Those things were his. When I confessed, I signed over everything to him. I laid no claims on his retirement, the money his parents gave him, nothing. None of that was important to me. What was more important was that *I* have the freedom to earn those "things" on my own. <P>I saw myself slipping into a situation, like so many women, where they set their own goals aside in favor of their husband's. I had done that for years, because I thought we had an understanding that we would take turns. Like "I give you a hand up, you give me a hand up". <P>I didn't want to be one of those women, who, 10,15,20 years down the road, after their husband gets tired of them say "I wish I would have done (fill in the blank)". Look at all the women on this website. There are quite a few that have done that, raised the children, and their husbands left anyway. It is bad enough I put my goals off for 5 years. I resent even that. I cheated because I was done giving. I was done sacrificing for him. I expected he would give to me willingly, happily, with joy in his heart, like I did for so long. That is love to me. His anger at moving showed me how little he really loved ME. <P>My thoughts at the time was that, if he had such a hard time moving under the best of circumstances (good job, wife with scholarship, all his friends there), what would he do if something REALLY serious came along? You could say the same for me, because I cheated. However, unlike him, I recognized very quickly that I had made a bad choice and did everything I could to make it right. What did he do? He cheated on me a month after my confession, trashed me for a year, then filed for divorce a week after my mom was diagnosed with cancer. My infidelity flushed out his true character. He was not there for me as a friend, or even as a human being. He was only "there" for me when I was his fun loving, sexy, recreational companion. Wow, how hard is that?!<P>Given all of that, you'd think I'd be happy to be rid of him. In some ways I am. However, all I can think of was how SURE I was before we married. I thought I'd covered all the bases. So, when I think about another relationship, I just can't trust myself or anyone else. I've given myself to two completely untrustworthy men. I can't afford to do it again. <P>As long as I've been posting here, you don't see the truth, and you have nothing to lose by posting to me. So, how can I believe that any man in my future would understand? They wouldn't. All they would see is someone trying to justify an affair most likely. I can say that my behavior was unjustified, but my feelings were not. That is something I'd have a very hard time explaining to someone,which is why I don't plan on trying to explain. I know the truth, and that is all that counts.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 26, 2000).]

TS,<P>Got you going have I? <P>You said: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> However, all I can think of was how SURE I was before we married. I thought I'd covered all the bases. So, when I think about another relationship, I just can't trust myself or anyone else. I've given myself to two completely untrustworthy men. I can't afford to do it again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The first sentence of your quote is the only reason I post to you. You see already how poorly you have predicted the future. When you predict that there will be no one in your future, I as does Duncan Mac and Bystander, suspect strongly that you are perhaps a little inaccurate. <P>We all sense what kind of person you are and therefore are trying in our (in my case feeble) way to get you to open your vistas. Yes, you are very hurt. Yes, you messed up the second marriage and you knew already that he would not accept infidelity he told you so. It was an exit affair wasn't TS? You changed you mind and were mistreated. All of this is true.<P>Further, you yourself said that you did not like owing anyone especially a man. You want a level playing field. That is not my interpretation of you feeling but your statement of your feelings.<P>What you missed in my posting was that I was not on your case. I was pointing out that somethings a spouse (yes, I know the one you'll never have) might need to know somethings. What you didn't seem to pickup was that I never mentioned that he needed to the details about the affair. He needed to know about you.<P>You see TS I am not on a mission to make you pay for anything. I am not on a mission to run your life. I am on a mission to see you reach the full potential of a wonderful life that you richly deserve. Whether that includes a man or not I don't know or care. <BR>But it bothers me that you have taken your choices in men and the extrapolated that all men are like the men you have chosen so far. The reason it bothers me is simply that you are limiting your life options again.<P>TS, my last post was not an attack on you but rather a statement of what I would have liked to know if I was a man interested in you. I don't mean casually interested, I mean committed interested. Casual men or even serious men don't need to know anything of your past experiences.<P>What also bothers me and D'Mac and bystander is your anger at a man that you are apparently better off without. You made choices, good and bad. The result is you are rid of a man that was hindering you and not suitable for your goals. You choose a poor way to be rid of him, but it is done. Be happy with the results. <P>If you are not happy with yourself that is not his nor any others man's issue, it is yours.<P>TS, think about what I have said. It is not said with any intent to hurt you, but to nudge you into accepting and seeing things differently than you currently do. I suspect you will get there anyway, but I don't like to see people needlessly torture themselves. Especially, someone with your potential.<P>So as usual, I say with all honesty and friendship:<P>God Bless You,<P>JL

JL,<BR>You are like the little angel on my shoulder going "now, now, TS". <P>What I'm not happy about, and even darn angry about, is that I have the stigma of two divorces hanging over my head. So that puts me in a "lower class" right there. <P>I know you don't want me to rule anything out. I too acknowledge that it is not likely that I'll spend the rest of my life alone. But a third marriage? I just find it so repulsive, and not just because of fear. <P>I just know how I am in marriage or probably any serious relationship. It is not a comfortable place for me to be in. I'm not myself. I do things that are not good for me, and should it end, I do things that are even worse (like attempt suicide). As lonely as my life is right now, the alternative seems just so unappealing. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. There is a certain security to being alone, and I'm starting to enjoy that. Frank Pittman in "Private Lies" says something like people who are distrustful of marriage have a very hard time being in one. That would be me.<P>I honestly don't believe that all men are like my two husbands. Having friends that are men, and working with alot of men, I have an insight into their dating and marriage world that their wives/girlfriends probably don't have. Their dark-side, if you will. I overhear all the conversations about the strip-clubs, women they think are hot, their opinions on breast size, lots of things they would never admit to their wives/girlfriends. It tends to make me even more skeptical.<P>I do appreciate your patience and kind words very much, even if it doesn't seem like it.<P>I don't see all that much potential in myself. Hope that doesn't sound insulting. I think I'm pretty average, or even below average because I've had two divorces. Getting a PhD doesn't make me special. Doing things that guys do doesn't make me special. You are right that I'm not happy with myself. <P>How am I supposed to be seeing things? Can you honestly tell me that my two divorces make me "attractive"? How am I supposed to live with that? Pretend it is not there? Pretend that most people don't consider it a serious black-mark? Especially the infidelity!! How does any of that make me special? I don't expect you to answer those questions, just some rambling on my part.<P>Thanks again for your insight, as always.

TheStudent,<P>You know it is probably because I am considerably older than you, but while two divorces isn't a ringing endorsement, it is not the black mark you think either. TS, you know yourself better than anyone, do you think you are a bad person?<P>I don't think so. Do you want to know my view of you? I see you as a late bloomer. A person who will flower as she gets into her 40's. I have this image of you and it is based on what you have said. You are going to enjoy your 40's, 50's and beyond. Many people are tiring out, and you will be ripping .<P>You see many people have many traumas in their lives and as they live longer the become more understanding of the human condition. Look at the people on this forum. They have seen and heard things they never expected. But at the same time they have grown and are much more accepting. This will continue TS.<P>As you progress professionally, you will progress personally. You will have your options TS and hopefully you will be ready to fully explore them. That is all I would like to see.<P>But TS, I will say this again, you are not a bad person. You are a sensitive person who has been hurt and has made mistakes. You will learn from the mistakes and learn how strong you are from your sensitive nature.<P>How are you supposed to life with the two divorces? The answer is obvious: with diginity. You are nowhere near a world record in divorces and in this day an age you marriage record won't merit mentioning in the annul of whatever, that keeps track of such things.<P>I keep telling you, once you are out of school with you PhD. you will look at life differently. You will have achieved a life long goal. No one can take that from you. You will know your chosen profession well. You will enjoy it. <P>Once that starts to happen, people will see you differently. You will be confident and happy. In someways your marriages were like high school marriages. You were not to your jumping off place as an adult.<P>So much to say, but don't worry TS. Good people will see the good in you. That is how it works. <P>As for the guys and their interest in breast size and such, just recall according to the experts we guys think of sex every 10 seconds. How would like to work under those conditions ? Most of it is just talk and nothing more. It isn't even opinion.<P>So let us have our fantasies. We still get some good work in every now and then.<P>Take care TS and God Bless You,<P>JL

JL,<BR>When I woke up this morning I thought how grateful I was that you and a few others like Dmac, Bystander, and K (you lurker you) are still trying to help me.<P>I consider it rude on my part to keep shoving off your attempts to help me feel better, and for that I apologize.<P>I know I'm not a bad person. There are alot of things about myself that give me pride and enjoyment. It is those things that I need to focus my energy on. I've already proven to myself that I'm no good at relationships. So ok. I'm not good at that. I just need to recognize that and spend my time on things I AM good at. <P>I promise I'll stop bashing men. You are right that it is not about what men do or don't do. It is about me.<P>You think I'm limiting my options, and you are right. Given my experiences, I'm much more aware of my limitations now. This is an area that I must accept my limitations. Some people don't recognize their limitations, or if they do, they'd rather die trying to overcome them rather than accept them. I don't want to die trying. I've come close to death twice now, and it is something I can do without. <P>I can do without the insecurity that intimate relationships bring to me. I can do without the silly judgements, quirks,lame fantasies, body worship, and other mental conflicts that intrude on my psyche when I have put myself in a position where I have placed my emotional well-being in some one else's hands. You see, none of those things bother me (like the stuff I mentioned about the guys at work) when I am not involved with anyone. It is not about men. I'll give you that. It is how I see myself when I am with a man. It is not a happy place for me. I'm done struggling with that aspect of my personality. I'd rather be alone.<P>There are things I still miss about being married or sexually intimate. Affection, sex, waking up with someone. Those are all things I miss a great deal. However, when I start feeling too sad about that, all I need to do is remember the price I've paid to have those things in the past. That price is way too high for me. That may sound like resignation to you, but to me it is just being realistic.<P>Now, I get massages regularly to satisfy my need for touch. I invite my dogs on the bed in the morning to cuddle (they are so CUTE!). I get lots of hugs from family and friends. <P>I've made my choice. Thank you very much for trying to help me see other options. It has been good for me to really clarify why I've made this choice. You were good to keep on me about my attitudes about men. While I kept my animosity high, I didn't have to focus on the real reasons why I've made this choice. I understand better now why my choice is good for me, and can fulfill it without animosity towards anyone. <P>Dmac,<BR>I celebrate and rejoice in the happiness you and Suse have found. You both are such a wonderful example to other couples who have faced such hardship. Even though I've made my choice, please don't take it as some failure on your part. Or a failure to hope even. My hope lies outside of an intimate relationship for myself. I'm happy for those who have found contentment within a relationship. It is not something I'm capable of. I'm content to recognize my limitations, and live as best I can within them. In any case, I am very thankful for your encouraging words!!<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 28, 2000).]