Well, it's been four weeks now since I came out of my fantasy and began living in reality. It looks like this.<P>H has spent the last 8 years lying about his feelings for me. Says he loves me but not like before. <P>Said he continued on with affair from 2 years ago even though I'd confronted him, becuase he really thought I would leave him eventually so there was no need to give her up.<P>During these last 8 years I have been to a marriage counselor with him over the first PA which was really just a one night stand but still hurt me very deeply. And when the 2nd incident came to light 2 years ago, an EA, we worked our way through all the MB suggestions. He answered questions, agreed on the Policy of Joint Agreement, EN questionaire, Love Busters, the Honesty and Openness agreement was made...and he was lying the whole time. Tells me now he didn't want the affair to end but didn't really want to lose me either.<P>I'm now aware of all of this. I believe the truth is always better than a lie. But right now, it has me so overwhelmed. He says (again) that he wants to change. I've heard that before. He is sorry. Which I'm not sure what that really means anymore. And that he wants to straighten out his life. That's a first. And these are all good. But he has also said that because he knew I wouldn't leave him, despite my threats, this is partly why he has behaved as he has.<P>I had thought that because he never tried before to make things work to give him the chance rather than running and never looking back. Now that I'm in that position of letting him work it out, I'm finding it very hard for me. I am just so scared by what he has done to me that I don't know how to even begin to accept anything he says as truth.<P>I am not comfortable with how he is working it out. He thinks it is okay to deal with this his way and it doesn't have to be mine. Well the difference between his method and mine is that mine actually deals with it and his way does all it can to avoid dealing with it. He admitted he was trying to escape the feeling of what he did because he knows it was wrong. But he won't accept any logical reasoning from me, won't join the forum for support, only sees a counselor once a week so when he's not sitting with her he's not dealing with it at all. He does let me talk to him and ask him questions but it's more that he is doing it for my sake..he knows he hurt me, knows I need to talk, so because this is his fault he will take the punishment of listening to me talk. But he isn't interested in talking himself or possibly paying attention in such a way that he could actually benefit from the conversations. He's really seemingly ashamed of what he did and himself, not ready to deal with it yet. But history has shown he has done this before and what happens is, he never really does deal with it in the long run. The PA he didn't deal with it at all. And the EA he lied his way through all the efforts.<P>Is it too early for me to expect to not be scared given his lies spanned 8 years? Are there techniques with MB that I haven't read yet about overcoming my own fear to give him another chance? Is this maybe a clear signal to me that I'm not aware of to get away from him? I really don't know what to think or do with what I feel. <P>Please help!

Is there hope?,<P>I'm sure exactly where you are...<P>Is there a copmplete separation from OW?<P>Has the "How to tell a lover that the relationship is over letter (on page 58-59of SAA)" been written/delivered?<P>Have you started to implement the... <B>Extraordinary precautions to guarantee separation</B>...<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> Changing jobs and relocating (Situation dependent)<BR><LI> Blocking all communication (phone, e-mail, pager, etc.)<BR><LI> Accounting for time<BR><LI> Accounting for money<BR><LI> Spending leisure time together<BR></OL>...<P>This may bring out his true colors...<BR>Good or Bad...<P>Prayers... <P>Jim

NSR<BR>Thank you for your reply. I think a complete separation has in fact occurred. She isn't in the same country so all we are dealing with is the phone and now that I know the other methods he used to call her, I've been tracking them as well. I have also spoken with her recently and she tells of no further contact when directly asked. THough she is a liar. No I don't believe her but their answers do match and there is no sign of them lying on this point.<P>As for the letter you referred to, I don't have that book yet...it's taking forever to get here, why I don't know..but he did call her while I listened and read to her a letter I wrote for him...all based on facts he shared with me about his feelings for me, the wrongfulness of their relationship, and the fact it has to end. It wasn't closure his way, it was my way. But agian, based on truth.<P>What more I can do to guarantee separation I don't really know. Rip out all the payphones? I'm searching everywhere I know to look and can possibly get access to for phonecard accounts and tracking them. So far so good. <P>And yes, most of our leisure time we are together though not necessarily enjoying ourselves. It's just hard to smile when I want to cry.<P>So now what? I'm waiting on the book but my nerves are not. I've talked to him until we are both blue in the face. He's saying the right stuff, he's walking the walk but not at the speed I need...<P>Looking for more thoughts. Thanks for the ones you've shared so far....

Is there hope?,<P>I know <B>exactly</B> how you are feeling. My H's affair has only been going on for 4 years, not 8, but I am also at the point of no trust. (None, nada, zip, zero) In fact, I have given him until Friday to either decide to leave once and for all or to try to prove to me that he is trustworthy of my love and affection. The only reason he is still in the house is because he won't leave, not because I haven't told him I need for him to go. (and the kids, and, and, and)<P>Yes, I know, and I will probably get flamed, but I am at the point where he's got to <B>prove</B> it. I have to be strong enough this time to not let him back into <B>my</B> life without the proof that <B>I</B> need. Perhaps you are at this point also. <P>The possibility of a relationship ending is always scary - to both parties. You remember the good things and the good times. The reason(s) I haven't moved away from the realtionship might not make sense to anyone else, but it's awfully hard when you think you still 'love' someone. A book that has really helped me acknowledge the possible ending of my relationship is <B>Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay</B> by Mira Kirshenbaum. It doesn't say you should leave if A) or B), but it did help me decide.<BR>This book may even help you answer some of your questions about yourself. <P>I've been where you are, over and over - and now it's time for us to decide what we're going to do about it. Best of wishes to you, whatever your decision.<P>

RCoaster<P>Thanks for the reference on the book. I looked it up on Amazon and was a little unsure how it is helpful given what they said. It didn't really say much overall. <P>I hesitate to buy it because in my own situation, what my life has been over the last 8 years is not really a reflection of who my H is capable of being. He seems to have said as much that all those things occurred to hide how he was feeling...not because he "is" that person but moreso because he didn't have the strength to fess up. And now that he is willing to change, and is seemingly trying, for real this time, I don't think I can seriously consider leaving him given what I know to be true. And yet, given what I DO KNOW, how I have been wrongly treated and purposely mislead, I'm afraid to move forward. So I'm not sure this book is quite what I am looking for.<P>I, too, gave my H such an ultimatum and he chose to clean up his act. But I have held tight to him having to do it for himself, not to keep me, and am still holding to it. Trying to get him to see that if he does it for anyother reason besides himself, it won't mean a thing. I think he is seeing this.<P>You know, at the end of the day I have to wonder when I look at him...was it worth it? I'll bet the answer is no.<P>Thanks for your thoughts and the book reference. I will keep it in mind though!

Oh Boy do I hear you. I'm in the same boat, Will we be the exception to the rule. He's spent so much time lying, leading double life how will I ever know for sure. Will I have to spy for the rest of my life, dy of aids or what and sometimes I wonder why am I trying at all, only hoping he's sincere, he does really love me, he'll never hurt me like this again. But when all is said and done I will never feel secure, safe again. If I stay and everything seems wonderful till we're old I'll probably lie on my death bed wondering who else he gave himself to, when, why. Haunting isn't it.

Brknhrt<P>Thank you for your thoughts here. I looked you up in the forum and replied to you over there. Just for the record, MB recommends a certain amount of distrust and spying to actually keep the marriage on the right track. However, my H having known of my spying, he outsmarted me at some point. So keeping things in perspective, I've decided to heck with spying. If he wants to be scum of the earth, so be it. He has to live with himself, not me. He has to answer to God for his own actions, not me. Thankfully!<P>

Is there hope:<P>What do you mean about him outsmarting you on the spying, hope to avoid mistakes. My H said he actually wants me to check up on him, I wonder if b/c he always wanted me to be jealous, possesive. I plan on chkg up but don't want him to be wise to it or it would do no good. Don't plan on 24 hr surveillance just periodic checks, ease the mind. Any tips.

I think the best tip is don't ever let on that you are doing anything to check up on him and never reveal anything you learn as a result. I'd find stuff out, confront him, and then he'd eventually come to know what I was checking into. So then he'd have to revise his methods and I'd have to dig around for his new tactics...like phonecalls used to get made from the house...then it moved to the cell phone...then to an internet service he subscribed to...and once I found out all of this...he moved to public phones! No way to check on that now is there? (Is there?!)<P>So do all the spying you can...just make sure you don't get caught. Aside from spying, make sure he accounts for all of his time and money spent. There shouldn't be periods of time missing from his day, even ten minutes. There shouldn't be even $20 unaccounted for from his income...that could be dinner out!<P>By the way, a certain amount of jealousy is supposed to be good for your marriage. Are you typically without any? Check into the book titled "A Dangerous but Necessary Passion", or something like that. It's about jealousy and how it can go too far, and actually be dangerous to a marriage and even to one's life, but that it is also necessary for the survival of a relationship. <P>It was just discussed on the Today show this week. The author claims that most marriages that survive over the years experience healthy amounts of jealousy and that those which end rather early on tend to experience little to no jealousy. Interesting! The guy went on to say that jealousy behaves like a check point...because the other person has to keep in line with your jealousy therefore he/she behaves better than if he/she didn't have to contend with your jealousy. He went further to say that most of the time, when someone senses that their spouse is cheating, they are USUALLY right! FRIGHTENING!<P>I'll check on the title of the book. Not sure I want to read it myself ...compared to how much I'd love for my H to read it! LOL<P>Good luck on the spying. Not sure I was of real help to you.<BR>

Is there Hope:<BR>Thanks, I know what you mean about not telling them. I haven't found out anything from what I have done so far, about 6 mths. But I haven't checked the phone thing, He's rarely alone at home, I mean rarely, so don't know. If I did find out anything I'd check it out and if it was confirmed, I'm out of here. Told him I wouldn't go thru this in any form, again. Not looking for a way out, just can't, won't live thru this again. Later.

I know just what you mean when you say you won't go thru this again...this is my 3rd time. H said last night that the reason all of our efforts were wasted in 1997 when we, correction "I", worked through this problem with MB guides is because it wasn't serious like it was this time.<P>I asked what he meant and it was because this time I just skipped right over Plan A and headed for more of a Plan B. Last time I did the Plan A stuff...I knew in my gut it was the wrong thing to do but what did I really know, I wasn't educated so I did as I knew to do based upon this website. <P>From now on, I follow my gut.<P>I was speechless when he said it though..."it wasn't serious like this time." He obviously wasn't on the receiving end of the pain was he. Otherwise he never would have said anything so stupid. He obviously has no clue at all as to what he has been putting me through. How sad really. For us both.<P>