I totally messed up tonight I feel. My W and I went to eat as planned and I took her to the city to a place we went to years ago. Anyway, she was very distant the whole ride. I tried to treat her like a friend but no friend acted like she was, just kinda there but not if you know what I mean? When she got to the restuarant she was a little better but not much. ( she did let me hold her hand in the car and on the way to and from the restaurant but she held my hand no feelings) I probably was pushing her there no? <P>At dinner towards the end I brought us up. (bad move I know) We also talked about the house which she brought up. She said she did not want to move into that house and got very anxious just thinking about having to do the inspection / closing (see it) on Fri. She won't be there, she said she was going to stay with her mother and father (bulls##t). <P>When we (I) started talking about us I asked if we could go somewhere else to talk. So we left and went down by the water where I parked. <P>While in the car I started pouring my heart out. I started crying and held her. (which she did out of pitty??) I talked about everything I should not have probably. The OM, me, her, you know. I afterwards apologized for acting the way I did and it would not happen again. She said it was okay, it was how I felt. <P>She said we are in just two different places. She said she was not sure what she wanted and that she thinks about both outcomes and said both could be sad. she said if she stays it might go back to the same way or she might not be all there in the marriage and just going through the motions like she had been. But, if she goes she might have made a mistake and it could be too late on my part to take her back. She said she doesn't know if she wants to try or not. <P>She also said when she is alone she she thinks alot and it makes her sad and depressed. I told her it was her conciouss and she said she knew and it was tearing her up. <P>I also asked if she loved the OM and she said no, I just enjoy being around him and she wasn't sure how she felt about him. I also asked if she could stop seeing him, she did not reply. See I told you I messed up. She does tell me she loves me though a lot. But she has also told me that it is just not the same anymore. Anyway...<P>I said it all probably. The positive (I think) is that before she got in her car to leave she gave me a big hug and kissed me then held me for a minute.<P>did I mess things up (BIG LB's) how can I recover. Now what?? I feel horrible and wish we would have never had dinner. I would have been better off.<P>Thanks as always<BR>

Caj1<P>You probably did lovebust some, but it didn't sound like you droove her away. When I saw you post that you were taking her to a romantic dinner, it was too late for me to tell you not to. That raises the expectations too high. I speak from experience here. I took my then w to anice restaurant and she too said very little. We then argued the whole half hour drive home plus I drove around for another half hour. <P>Just go back to Plan A and keep on working that plan. No lovebusters is very hard to accomplish and is hard to do the first time out.<P>Hang in there, you are still in the ballgame.<P>God Bless<P>Bob

RWD,<P>Do you understand my W at all? Is she confused or feeling guilt and pitty on me hurting?

I think if you go back and read the advice from everyone about the lunch and dinner you wil have a better understanding.<P>It was NOT a romantic dinner. It was to be just a dinner with a friend who needed a break from the war. It is hard, but you must, must not take ANYTHING she does or does not do seriously, and CERTAINLY not personally. Think of a male friend who is hurting, and just wants to go to dinner. His bad mood, glummy outlook would not be taken personally by you. You MUST adopt this type of thinking. <P>Remember: SHE cannot, will not be able nor want to deal with YOUR feelings. If you inject that, she will shut down. She is overwhelmed. Don't ADD to the pile. Give her a break, be glad that you can do small things. Come here to vent, to have someone hear your anquish (sp?). I don't think it went as bad as you do. Certainly, I think it would have been a mistake to not go. Reign in your expectations. Review your mission statement each and every time you have contact with her in any form. Mission: To let her have a safe place to come to. To avoid adding to her pile. To not expect anything for yourself.<P>Great huh? Oh well, on you go. Re-read the past posts to you. Look in the mirror and repeat your mission. Feel good about the part you did do. Don't worry about the rest. Don't let her telling you a lie set you off. Just nod your head, and say um. Move off that which caused the lie. Remember: Do not ADD to the pile.<P>Take care.<P>Victoria

Caj,<P>Please do not be offended by what I am about to say.<P>You need to slow down. In a desperate attempt to hurry up and make everything OK again, or at least understand why it is not you seem to be trying to make things happen all at once. Been there, done that - doesn't help.<P>You will be doing yourself a HUGE favor if you accept that this is going to take time to sort out.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>She said we are in just two different places. She said she was not sure what she wanted and that she thinks about both outcomes and said both could be sad. she said if she stays it might go back to the same way or she might not be all there in the marriage and just going through the motions like she had been. But, if she goes she might have made a mistake and it could be too late on my part to take her back. She said she doesn't know if she wants to try or not. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Read this carefully. What is she trying to tell you? She is insecure and looking for a guarantee of success (avoidance of failure and regret). Of course there is no such thing. But there is a hint in there that she would be willing to try if she feels safe doing so.<P>There is a war going on between her emotions and her conscience. She says she loves you and she denies feeling love for OM? Great! I'd give my right arm to be in your position. You really have something to work with here.<P>You need to get a grip on your emotions and get busy.<P>1. Start filling her Love Bank without expecting anything in return. It sucks, its unfair, blah, blah, blah. Just do it.<P>2. Be consistent. Let her know you are going to work your behind off rebuilding your relationship, and then do it. <P>3. Take the high road always - there are no regrets there.<P>4. Don't use guilt, appeals for pity, etc. Give her some space.<P>Will she go to counseling with you? Is she willing to read books, some to the MB site, etc. In other words, is she willing to help resolve her own uncertainty by pursuing a better understanding of relationships?<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

Caj1<P>Your W said the exact same things my H said a while ago. I never was able to understand them. In a way it makes sense, in a way, it sounds incredibly selfish. Of course, either option is going to be sad. But only one option is the RIGHT one. And on top of that, don't forget she is still in this affair so she can't think right anyhow.<P>Give her time. Time and Trust is all you can do. I feel either way, it will be her decision in the end and you'll have to pray for the best. Don't rush anything.<P>I know, when your in pain, you can't take it, and you do it to get past all this hurt. I did it too. In the end, I Plan A'd to the point of breakdown and I just gave up. No plan b, just walked away.<P>In the middle of divorce, which he filed, and I am not sure but I think affair isn't as great anymore. Not positive. Now I am involved too because I saw no hope for recovery.<P>IN the end, I guess I feel what is meant to be is meant to be and if we keep stepping in the way of fate, we slow it all down. <P>Plan A, be strong and my prayers are with you, Dana<BR>

caj,<P> There are a lot of good words in everyones response. <P>QUESTION TO ALL<P>In the case of caj, do you think that break down and crying is a love bust.<P> I think that that act alone is not because all it does is express your feelings. I think that should it evolve into something major like begging, forcefully looking for comfront does become a love bust.<P> Remember to take into account the case of caj whose wife is up in the air as to which way to go.<P>Joe<BR>

2sad4words,<P>Thanks, I have heard this from you before, what does it mean? The High road, no regrets:<P>3. Take the high road always - there are no regrets there<P><BR>Also,<P>Will she go to counseling with you? Is she willing to read books?<P>She will not go to counseling but says I should go for myself. I have given her a couple of books to read but who knows if she is reading them or not.<P>you say<BR>Start filling her Love Bank without expecting anything in return<P><BR>I have read about the love bank over and over I guess I don't exactly get it. Can you give some examples of filling a love bank? I know it is anything to not upset her I just don't quite get it. Right now though I really don't get anything. My brain is like pea soup. It sucks!! I feel really stupid. <P>Hope you can help clarify some of this and thanks so much. <BR>

Victoria,<P>Thank you for following my posts, I value your opinions.<P>you say<BR>Don't ADD to the pile. Give her a break.<P>Meaning what, don't call her? I have such a hard time with how to act. I said to 2sad4words that I guess I just don't understand completely about love busters. Can you give some examples (simple if possible, my brain is mush) of do's and don'ts?<P>My therapist said the same thing about me wanting too much too quick. She said I see things as black and white (must be the engineer in me) and this is a gray area, which will be another good learning experience for me. I sure am getting a lot of experience that I thought I never needed in life. guess I will be a wise old man one day.<P>Thanks again Victoria, please keep replying to my posts

RWD<P>Thanks for responding. As I have asked others could you give some examples of love busting? I guess I don't get it completely?? Should I not be contacting her and let her contact me??<P>Thanks again

caj1,<P> By now you should have recieved what my real email address is. If you haven't let me know and I'll send it to you again.<P> Let me take a run at explaning so of your concerns. <P>Love Bank -- Try and view it as a list. at the top is positive and at the bottom negative. Somewhere in the middle put 0. Now everyone usually starts out at 0 with what ever bias added in. From this starting point is you do good things (something the she likes) you are adding more positive points. This alone does get you to far. You might need something like 10,000 points before she will love you. Where the two of you first meet you said nice things to her, you made her laugh, you made her feel comfortable ... These are what adds in points.<P>What happened over time are things like (examples). You watch a football game when she was bored (You cared more about the game). You maybe didn't show concern about a problem she had. I could go on and on but I think you see it.<P>At this point in time you lost enought points that you dropped down into tha marginal area of limbo. The OM came along and he listened to her. Talked to her about her feelings and was there when she needed him. He started building up points. Remember I said I don't think your wife intended this to happen it just caught her offgaurd. It happened by this communicating this grow bond between her and the OM. At some point in time he had more points in the bank then you, this is when you really became in trouble.<P> Now it is up to you. Do you want to add points or take away points? It will be hard to have an impact on the OM balance in her bank. You can only be aware of what is going on and if/when the time is right you may find the chance to help her see the OM for what he is. If you attacked him you will lose points and her protecting him will give him points.<P> Do you remember what I said about everyone here is involved in an emotional affair. We listen to each other, we help each other. We offer our support for one another. This is basicly a form of an emotional affair. The big difference here is that we don't know each other. The only reason I would send you my email address is YOUR NOT MY TYPE. I could never send my email addres to Mitzi or Sobeit. I have become concerned about how they are doing and I want to see things work out for them. <P> If there became contact between myself, mitzi, sobeit the door would become open to something more serious happening. This is a big reason why we all have pen names. You'll learn and undestand in time how it all came to be. It will somewhat help your pain and it will help to ease your mind. <P> Your wife, it sounds like, has talked to someone, grow to have some form of feelings for this person. By there contact (most likely due to problems in your marriage) a relationship has grow. If you look at her words she realizes all directions have problems. She realizes the OM is not the answer. She realizes her life is a mess right now. WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS WHAT ANY BEST FRIEND WOULD DO, HELP HER, BE THERE FOR HER, LISTEN TO HER PROBLEMS, AND ABOVE ALL BE A SAFE PLACE FOR HER. It won't be easy but you need to commit yourself. If your head is ready to let lose if this whole thing is starting to drive your crazy to the point that you are not acting rationally you may want to consider talking to the doctor.<P> MY DOCTOR (SHRINK), DID SAID A THING ABOUT HE GOING ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS. HE SOMEHOW THOUGHT I WAS DEALING WITH THINGS OK. What a pile of BS that was. What he saw was he getting a grip because my I needed to be 100% so I come get the most out of them. Of course I would fall apart before and after them. Talk to the consulor and be straight with them. DON'T SUGAR COAT ANYTHING.<P> Now is a good time to be working on yourself. Go on this trip of rediscovery. Review your priorities, I can tell by your feelings that your priorities are mixed up. What are you going to do about them? Make a plan. I started making it a point to go ut more. We now go this little bar and play foosball and just plain have a good time.<P>Good luck<BR>Joe<BR>

caj,<P>I don't know if I'm the best one to give you advice as I'm divorced. I never made it through Plan A, or B as she bascially wouldn't let me.<P>The reason I see you are still in the "ballgame" is because your w is still talking to you and is showing signs of interest in you. Mine never did after discovery, she never told me she loved me again after discovery. So your w still does have feelings for you. They are just covered up by the mush of all the emotion she is filling with om. <P>She probably knows deep down she loves you, but she feels this incredible "love" for the om. After all, he is filling some need your w is missing from you and that is overpowering to her. Yet she feels "something" for you so there is also guilt for her to deal with.<P>My idea of Plan A is to give her a feeling that it is "safe" to come home to you. She must feel that you are not going to interrigate her about the affair.<P>I guess the best solution would be to treat her like you just met her and are trying to win her attention. When you first met her, did you aske her all kind of questions about who she dated before you and what they did together. No you didn't, that would have been unattractive to her. I think the same thing hold true now. You basically need to meet her again, find out her likes and dislikes, and eventually she will be able to confide in you about why she did what she did.<P>You do need to find out what need you weren't meeting and work on improving that function in your life. Were you unappreciative, neglectful, non-conversational(I was guilty in part of all of these)? These areas are typical needs fro woman and if you are light in these area, you need to work on improving yourself .<P>Go to casual dating of your w. Stay away from romantic dinners, etc. That is proabbly too much pressure. I made that mistake. You probably should stay away from movies as you can't talk. Just try to do fun things again. Be spontaneous. I think it is alright to call, but play it loose. She will not want to feel like you are checking up on her but she will still want you to show you are interested.<P>A betrayer posted here somewhere today that her marriage is over because her h cannot trust her and is always checking up on her and interrogating her and she can no longer take it.<P>And whatever you do, don't ask fro details. My x once mentioned french kissing and I about threw up right there as all I could see was them french kissing. And he is not a handsome man, I still shudder to see that image. She saw the reaction on my face and that was an immediate lovebuster to her. <P>Fortunetly(?) I didn't have any love units built up in her so I didn't lose any.<P>You asked what a love unit was. It is basically anything that makes a person feel good about you. It came be simple cards, kisses, pecks on the cheek, grab of the tush, hold a door open, standing up against a wrong instead of looking the other way. It is basically up to that person as to what is or isn't a love unit or what is or isn't a love buster.<P>I wish I knew these things 16 yrs ago!<P>Just keep working at it and loving your w. Your marriage can work out. My marriage circumstances just happened to be different than yours.<P>Hang in there and God Bless.<P>Bob<BR>

caj1,<P> Asking for Details can be really bad. First you need to be able to stomach it. Next what purpose does it serve. If you are really not going to learn some valuable piece of information that can honestly help your marriage don't ask it. I fell you do have the right to ask the questions yo just need to be ready for the answer. Also if you hit a touchy area she may very well lie.<P> I went thru may stages of lies. Each level more and more was added. It was like running my heart thru the blender with each time. I needed to learn my mistakes, I want to learn what help her. The problem was she down played a lot of things, she didn't want to hurt me.<P>If there is anything that will make 2+2=3 this area is so full of garbage. You would be better off just accept the basic picture, you know what the score is. Drop it and more on.<P>Sex is not that important to a woman so she'll have no problems dropping any memory. If you want to ask someone who has been thru it make a post to the betrayer ladies and you'll get some responses.<P>Joe<BR>

Caj,<P>I think GettingBetter and RWD explained the Harly concepts well. As far as my advice to "Take the high road, there are no regrets there.", what I mean is simply act in an honorable, virtuous, forthright manner. Don't be vindictive exchanging hurt for hurt. Don't fight evil with evil.<P>Act as if you just started dating - go out of your way to avoid insulting her, fighting with her, etc. Also go out of your way do be nice to her, do nice things for her, etc.<P>Love her as you would want to be loved. (sounds a little like the Golden Rule, right?). Make her feel special, but don't smother her. Let her see how considerate and loving you <B>can</B> be.<P>Are you religious? Then love her as Jesus loves you, as He tells us to love each other (see 1 Corinthians 7:4-7)<P>I consider this the "high road" because you can't be faulted for doing nice things. Even if all this effort fails, it is not for nothing. You will always know you made the effort, you really tried. On the other hand, if you exchange hurt for hurt you would always wonder if you could have saved you marriage. <P>Do the right thing because <B>it is </B> the right thing, not because it might get you what you want, and you will never have regrets. Sadness maybe, regrets, no.<P>------------------<BR>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.<BR>Galatians 5:22-23

Caj1,<BR>I understand where you are coming from. I am at the same place with my H. He tells me he loves me, but he's not sure what he wants. I too have done like you, spilled my guts. And I felt like I really messed things up, but I didn't. Sometimes things need to be said and heard. If you followed your heart, you did fine. Also, if she wasn't ready to hear those things, she would have stopped the conversation. Just go on from here. Back to depositing love. <P>I really do feel that she is torn. I know my H can't think straight and I'm sure she might be feeling the same way. I know going through something so painful, that we at times seem to forget to see things from the others side. In as much pain as we are in, they are too. Yes it's different, and yes they have brought it on themselves, but it's still there. <P>My only advice to you is to love your wife, be there for her, and keep doing what you are doing. She will make her decision, and then you will have your happy ending.<P>------------------<BR>You can't live with them, you can't kill them!<BR>Viki