I had a potential "aha" moment last night/ today regarding my husband and his behavior. As probably everyone knows, he just won't talk to me about anything besides "safe" topics, yet we get along great. After a long absence, he has been reconnecting with the kids and has started acting like a parent, at least to our older child.<P>Anyway, last night we were having dinner and he made the following comment: "you have to agree, Clinton/Gore have taken double-talk to a new level, with all the lying and affairs". I didn't say much at the time, but this comment is haunting me.<P>My husband has been involved emotionally and sexually with a subordinate at work for more that 18 months, yet no one in the family has met her, he won't talk about her, there is no picture in his wallet of her, and he judges others badly because of THEIR affairs. MY HUSBAND DOESN'T THINK HE'S HAVING AN AFFAIR. This is not acting - I think he really thinks it.<P>Could it be that for my husband, as long as he doesn't talk about it to anyone, it isn't happening? Could it be like the tree falling in the woods - if no one is there to hear it, it didn't make a noise? Is my husband insane?<P>I've written recently that my husband is more fearful of talking openly to me than anything else in the world. I truly believe this - it's not hyperbole. I think he'll choose to stay married to me indefinitely rather than tell me IN PERSON what he's done (my condition for signing the waiver of service). Can it be that this fear of talking is his subconscience protecting him from dealing with the truth of his behavior? Would acknowledging what he's doing destroy him?<P>I don't know if there are psychologists on the board, but what is the definition of insanity? In this context, does anyone have any guidance for me on what I can do with this insight?

I wanted to reply, but I am not a psychologist. My H also is denying anything other that "I really enjoy working with her" although, every other human being, including Op's H (who has given me the most details) knows otherwise. <P>It, so far, seems to be an intense EA. But my H moved out 7 weeks ago. <P>I don't know why they do this. I think it is total intellectualization. This is how he is handling the kids (age 11, 8) as well. It is soo weird. He expects them to be little robots. Has no tolerance for their normal behavior, which he could tolerate very well prior to this.<P>My H also has made so many comments about Clinton. I think they intellectualize that the reason that what they are doing is right is because it is "SO RIGHT".. You know, like noone else has ever experienced something so special before, so how could anyone even understand it. That's why they don't talk about it. <P>I know what it is like to have a H who will not talk about anything. My H still has yet to say anything to me other than "I just have questions....no answers"......<P>How long has your situation been going on?? It sounds like your H had moved out also. When did he decide to come home????

Hi Distressed -<P>I must confess that when I read "Questioning my husband's sanity" I said "WHAT SANITY!!!" LOL!!!<P>My H is exactly the same...."no going" where the guilt lies.........that is what I call it.<P>What I seem to find is that the more time passes....I can get little things out of him by "skirting" what he's done and slightly addressing one issue from the marriage or what I think might have been a contributor to his behavior...<P>They definitely don't want to see themselves....or their behavior - no way, not at all!!!!!<P>That's why this whole mess is 'our lives" to begin with!!! Don't ya just want to smack 'em? I know I wouldn't mind using some electroshock therapy on mine!!!!! <P>What I meant by skirting was that in a lighthearted conversation bring up an "issue" in a non-threatening manner....<P>One of mine, for an example, was during a joking mode - we were laughing about an acquaintance of his that had blamed his wife for something really dumb, that she had no control over or hand in....H said something about 'Yeah, next he'll be leaving his wife cuz she has to use the bathroom....I said (still in joking mode) "Well, I guess I was a bad wife because your leaving me over not working was a hell of a lot worse than what he thought she did" He said - "I didn't leave cuz of that, don't be stupid!!<BR>It's not that - it's a lot of things"<P>Now, if you remember my H ONLY said that to me for the past 3 years and especially since he filed....this is the reason he gave and was very consistant with it....I knew it was BS - but he never gave an inkling that it was!!!<P>I still haven't gotten more out of him, but just that much of a glimmer into his brain is a BIG step to me....pathetic, huh? But it really is huge!!!<P>It hasn't dawned on him that he has left it that he has no stated reason for divorcing now....<P>Someday all will be revealed, I hope and pray. As long as the OW (s) are in some way in their brains and they are afraid to look at their own behaviors and brain patterns....they won't touch this stuff with a ten foot pole.<P>I don't think it's insanity, I think it's FEAR.....the fear of being bad, hurting us, fear of having to work at something, fear of not being happy, fear of going back, fears...fears....fears!!!<P>Time and "skirting" are my only option right now....I don't have the "family" to get in some recreational activities - just the dog, who he used to think of as our "child". Sometimes, especially lately, we have some loving contacts over her......HEY, whatever works!!!!<BR> <BR>What do you think, can little things be put in that would address but not threaten?<P>Thoughts?<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Forgot to relate the main example I wanted to post to you....DUH!!!<P>H and I had a similar conversation as your "Clinton/Gore..lies/Affairs...<P>He came home from work one night hopping mad....he had to arrest this hooker (shame really - had kids, was addicted to crack, had been beaten up, etc.) and he was outraged that during his interviewing her she out and out lied to him. "How DARE she lie to me...I'm trying to go easy on her and help her and her kids and she lies?.....lowlife scumbag.....deserves anything that happens......." And on and on.....<P>I just sat there flabbergasted, he could be so outraged over this stranger and couldn't see ANY similarities with his own behavior! His morals, compassion, common sense, caring for her fate were all in tact from the "old" H that I knew and loved....<P>About all I could contribute to him was that addiction leads a person to do all kinds of strange and stupid things - oh, and lying is one at the top!!!!<P>He didn't get it!!!!!1<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>

So, the alternate hypothesis to insanity is compartmentalization. That somehow, these men are able to put all their "bad" activities away in a separate part of their brain and not have to deal with them. Other people are unfaithful, other people lie, and they're wrong. But our husbands aren't doing these things? Can they do this forever? Sure seems that way in my case.<P>Tootrusting, we're now approaching 19 months of separation (must seem like a lifetime to you). There has never been a discussion about reconciliation - that is one of the taboo subjects. Really, there hasn't been a discussion about divorce either, and certainly none about solutions to our problems. My husband won't see a counselor or read a book either. But, interestingly, while I can't get him to talk I can get him to read. I've had quite a bit of success with letter writing in recent months. He doesn't generally respond or acknowledge receiving the letters, but I can see behavior changes as a result.<P>The other weird thing is my husband doesn't seem to be crazy, inlove with his OW. Of course, I have no real information (all taboo subjects, you know), but based on his availability, his failure to divorce me, and his never bringing her around to meet anyone (including our 7 year-old son), it just doesn't seem like he's committed to that relationship either.<P>Sheba, you sure can make me laugh. What sanity is right! No going where the guilt lies. I'll have to remember this. As far as skirting into some topics, I might as well give this a try. The worst that could happen is it will shut down the fun conversation we're in the midst of. I could have done this to the Clinton comments last night, something like "yea, he's a serial philanderer which is much worse that your variety". I don't know - that doesn't sound too good either.<P>Seriously, I question whether our desire to avoid the lovebuster of making them talk is really hurting us in the end. They are conflict avoiders. It's a learned behavior - my husband's family are all conflict avoiders too. They don't make him talk either. No one does!<P>In light of my new thinking, I've traced back to the conversation on Dec. 5, 1998, when I got him to confess the affair. I comforted HIM. I never got angry or even that hurt about it. I told him right away that I was sorry for hurting him so much and not letting him know how much I love him. I asked him if he loved her and he acted like she was no big deal. We hugged and kissed and were close. It was the last time.<P>The next night, he came by and was cold as ice.<P>Here's my thought. Maybe, he doesn't want to be forgiven by me since he can't forgive himself. In order to be forgiven, there has to first be acknowledgement of the sin. He's stuck there. With so much time having passed and no one making him talk about it, or punishing him in any way, he can sort of pretend that there's nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe there's this one HUGE WAD of overwhelming guilt and remorse buried underneath this surface denial. Maybe if it comes out, he's dead. Maybe he's just protecting himself.<P>I have some other weird things that fit into this model. For example, for the longest time he's acted like he's "doing me a favor" by eating dinners I cook for him or accepting gifts from me. I've entertained his entire family with him there too. Everyone thanks me except him. Like he knows he doesn't deserve it. He can't thank me for being nice to him (although very recently I have gotten thank you's). Maybe he doesn't want me to be nice to him. Does this make sense? Is it possible that he WANTS ME to punish him since no one else is and he can't do it himself? If I punish him, does it help absolve him of guilt since he might have a better justification for what he's done.<P>I know this sounds strange, but it sort of makes sense to me. Maybe not. Just over analysis again.<P><BR>

You're on the money....I feel exactly the same. It's as if the truth of themselves WILL destroy them!!!!<P>They can't acknowledge it and worse yet, they take on this "superiority" about themselves and "their behavior" when it relates to others....<P>Perhaps the common thread also is the family and friend factor.....when someone doesn't have loved ones question or challenge bad behavior (or at least out of character behavior) - why should they question or challenge it themselves? It makes it that much easier......<P>Perhaps there is something to the "punishing" idea you have there....have to think on that some more. I think that H uses me in his warped mind to punish - it's like he sees me standing over him saying - blah, blah, bad boy, blah, blah.....<BR>and that is why he doesn't look me in the eye and wouldn't let me into his world of debauchery (sp?)!!! Maybe it helped him separate things......<P>Maybe we don't have to punish cuz they "see us" in their heads doing it already...<P><BR>Thoughts?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited March 31, 2000).]

Distressed,<P>When I mentioned to my H that a relative of mine had recently gotten pregnant by an OM while separated from her H, he made some scornful comment. It seemed like it never occurred to him how similar his position was.<P>My H has thanked me for virtually nothing since he left. Even when he came over for dinner on our son's birthday (my H's own suggestion) he did not say a word of thanks about the meal. Sometimes I feel like being nice to him is a LB.

Distressed,<BR> I think you make a lot of sense.When my W's affair was disclosed,I told her I loved her and wanted to work it out.We even discussed counseling.A couple days later,she woke up one morning and said,"You'll never forgive me",and was angry and cruel from that point on.Like maybe she couldn't forgive herself if she stayed with me?<BR> I remember years ago,when her boss's W left him after having several affairs.My W was livid,"How could she do that to him?".But now her affair is no big deal,the right thing to do,I'm sorry I hurt you-not.Maybe the truth is,she can't really look in a mirror for fear of what she might see.<BR> --Murph

Wow,<P>It appears that this is another common caracteristic of the betrayer. "Do as I say and not as I do"<P>Val worked at the 911 center for a short time and a mutual friend of ours was having an affair with another dispatcher. Val was so insensed by this that she was ready to call his W and tell her. How can he do that to her? HUH, WHAT? <P>After D day I asked her about this, got no answer. I forgot, they are only "friends"<P>Zippy

This is getting good!<P>From what I can see, there are a number of similar traits we're seeing. Fundamentally, it looks like those of us dealing with this kind of avoider have more or less concluded that the denial is to THEMSELVES, not a show for us. We're also saying that FEAR is a major factor, most likely fear of acknowledging what THEY have done. We are incidental factors to the situation, kind of the judge they don't want to parade in front of.<P>The question is, what should we do about it? The part that I'm relatively clear on, after all this time, is that in an environment consistenting exclusively of enablers (including us), they never have to confront their fears. And they don't. It is always easier and safer to avoid in a supportive environment than confront your fears directly. Besides, why should they risk their current comfortable, supportive, and loving environment for the unknown?<P>For a long time, I've held onto the belief that eventually, everyone who has even a modicum of self respect will create their own repercussions in this kind of environment. But now, I don't see that being the case. What exactly is going to shake up their world?<P>I don't think punishment is the answer (especially not punishment from us). But I do believe that we need to instill some kind of change to their environment. Their world is too easy. Somehow, the ability to easily avoid and self-deny has to be addressed.<P>The one thing I recently did was talk to my BIL (husband's brother). I said that I had no interest in manipulating the situation and asking the family to help (they are supportive and close to me, but don't really do anything as they are conflict avoiders themselves). BIL also sees the avoider tendencies in the family (including himself) and in a weird way, both he and I are IMPRESSED that my husband sent me divorce papers, as at least he took some action. Anyway, I asked him if he would try to get my husband to talk. I told him that I don't really care what he says to him or what position he takes, but I think the family has to start questioning what's going on. I said "Ask him about OW, ask to meet her, ask him about me, ask him about his relationship with our daughter, just get him to acknowledge the situation and make it real.". He agreed with me that letting avoiders avoid is just not working. Furthermore, his wife has some background in psychology and agreed to do some research on the best ways to handle avoider personalities.<P>This is a gentle baby-step. With so little to lose, I may start doing more. But slowly. Does anyone have any other recommendations on ways to get information on effectively dealing with this kind of personality?<P>Great input from everyone. Thank you for helping me think through this.

Distressed,<BR>Have you guys been to a counselor? My H and I went to our pastor who has psychology backgrd. He told us on our 2nd or 3rd visit my H is a narcissist, compartmentalizer. When I read your story above It seemed to hit home. I looked up narcissism on the web, personality disorders, I finally saw my H in lgt of this. Sounds like some of you out there are also married to narcissists. Compartmentalization is their specialty. There are many forms of N so read to see yours. The bad news is that it hard to treat. They trust no one, and don't take advice, must feel those they listen to are superior or at least equal to them. Anyway read up on it. I am coming to an understanding that only God, can help them look into themselves. The verser about the word of God dividing the flesh from the bone, is speaking of how he can show us what we cannot see, when we seek it. My H is so much like many of yours but he has been willing to answer questioons, but I believe they are not always the whole truth, for fear of hurting me, having to see it himself, etc. Pastor says that even if her were to counsel him b/c of his closed personality, it could take a year or more and may never help him see what God can, God can cut to the quick b/c he knows all. If you seek to know the truth (them looking into themselves asking God to show them) he will. I believe this must be our prayer. I am coming to the realizatioon that I cannot make him see what I see, but if he seeks God, and I pray and believe, only God can heal him, and me. This has been a great Thread, finally I've found some others who may be facing what I to am facing. Read my story Mar 22nd, to BBNC and others, tell me on that thread if you see any similarities.<BR>Hope to hear more on this thread too.

Hi Distressed,<P>I recognized early on that my H was going to have an incredibly difficult time forgiving himself for what he did. He's very vulnerable to guilt. And, until the affair began, he had always thought of himself as a very moral person. I told him on several occasions that I could forgive him. He could not understand how. One time he said, "Then, you're a much better person than me." Another time he said, "You might be able to forgive me, but I don't think I could forgive myself." Now, I'm not so sure that it wasn't his way of rationalizing the continuation of the affair. You know, something like, I've made a huge mistake that can't be undone, there's no going back, so I might as well continue on with the affair. Or, he could have been sincere. I'll never know for sure.<P>Anyway, I told him that my forgiving him was really for MY benefit. That if I harbored a grudge I would only be hurting myself in the long run. I also made it clear to him that by forgiving him, I was in no way condoning what he did. I told him I hated what he did, but I didn't hate him.<P>I found an excellent piece written by Michele Weiner-Davis on the Divorcebusting site. It's titled, "Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself". One sentence really rings true. It states, "Forgiveness is a decision, not a feeling."<P>So, one day, I sat down and wrote a letter to H admitting my failings in the marriage, told him I admired his strength in reaching out for help, and that I still loved him. I included the article on forgiveness. Later, he thanked me for the letter, and I really think it had an impact on him. Shortly afterward he told me that he thought he could finally forgive his mother (who had mentally, emotionally and physically abused him.) In some ways, I felt that he had transferred some of his feelings towards his mother onto me during the last few years. It was after I wrote him that letter, that I began to see a real change in him. It may have been coincidental, but I'll never know for sure.<P>Here is where you can find the piece:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks4.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks4.html</A>

Okay,<BR>I understand that Clinton stuff. My stbx thought he was disgusting. Never said anything about Hilary though. Never felt sorry for her or anything.<P>One time...after D I told him about 2 former co-workers of his that were caught coming out of a downtown hotel together after an afternoon (lunch) sex romp.<P>He said....Your kidding....they are both married....I can't believe they would do that.<P>Of course...I already know my stbx is insane.....just wanted to add my 2 cents worth

This is a great post for me. I hope we can keep it going and try to help each other in dealing with these narcissitic, avoider types. <P>I am truly at a loss. My H won't admit anything to anyone. I actually think he is lying to himself as well. Although he is in counseling and I've heard a change in his usual style of conversation lately....so maybe they're getting somewhere.<P>I don't really know what is going on in his head regarding the OP. I know it is a deep EA based on some grandiose idea that they are "special" somehow doing this great deed for mankind. The grandiosity is the theme of what I have heard from the beginning of the "possession".<P>The things that seemed to bother him about me were vague...."You're on a different level" "you can't change" "It's who you are". He even made a comment when one of the kids said Daddy doesn't love us anymore that "That's what kids think love is".. Like he and OP have found some different special one of a kind "love"<P>It's so infuriating. Other vague things he referred to had to do with me not working side by side with him like her, therefore I can't possibly understand him like she does.,<P>None of the above has been helpful to me. I do know that she is like a slave to him and admires him all the time. He listens to her like everything she says has special meaning. YEt many other people around her see her for what she is....a mere mortal with many faults....one of being on a power trip......<P>I feel like I am walking a very fine line. I need to wait until this Possession leaves him alittle....or when the grandiosity wears down alittle, and then maybe I can get alittle tougher in making him confront.<P>I think I'll just get to the point of not being able to take it anymore. '<P>my H's family has also admitted that they have always "enabled" him. He has pretty much been left alone....and gotton to do what he wanted. This time though it is a moral issue...having to do with values that he was raised with and his family is not tolerating this well.<P>Isn't it so convenient that the WS can change their value system completely when they want to. <P>My H would read books to the kids to promote values and morals. He talked to our son at length about being honest...telling the truth. <P>I truly believe he has somehow been able to make it all "right" in his head. Like he is the only person (and the OP) who "gets IT"<P>His family and many of our friends have voiced their opinions to him....he does not talk about it to them.<P>But, it did make him slow down the process alittle. When he started this he was like a runaway train. Now, even though he says things like "I was pretending to love you I just didn't realize it"... (I want to say "how do you know you were pretending when you say you have NO memory of our life together???") he doesn't talk about divorce.<P>I've read SAA and HIs needs, her needs. (I may actually not be able to meet his admiration needs like her if she works with him for 12 hours a day.) I am doing plan A the best I can with him not living here.<P>But now I am reading Love Must be Tough and I think that there is a definate call to make them accountable for their actions. And for respect!!!! When this all started I was in such a state of shock. He was a totally different person. Not one that I recognized at all.<P>It hits you and you take it and you feel really really bad about yourself. <P>Then you pick yourself up and tell yourself, you did not do this. You are not totally responsible for this. And yet we can seem to do nothing to make them feel any responsiblity. <P>There is so much I want to say to him. Especially with regards to his total insensitivity to the kids. I want to scream at him. But you know I don't think it would do any good. <P>I wonder if I could get him to go into counseling with our kids, even if he won't go with me. He sees the kids a lot, but no one is talking about anything. We have even done things together and are going on spring break together because we planned it before the "possession"<P>Whoever mentioned e-mails and letters, I think it is a good option. I do the same with my H (e-mails). He never responds and hardly mentions them but I think I notice a difference also. I always tell him we miss him and love him in the e-mails. He keeps coming and seeing us and is nicer each day. <P>I don't know, I'd take any suggestions to try.

Even more terrific comments. <P>Sheba, I think there is an issue here about punishing them, even when we don't think we're doing it. They KNOW how awful they're being and that we SHOULD punish them. Seriously, I've seen some evidence of this before. At the beginning of the separation (before I knew of the affair), I was able to get my husband to come to three counseling sessions with me. They were something else. During one of these, he described to the counselor that he had made decisions UNILATERALLY, based on what I WOULD HAVE SAID, if he included me in the decision. He blamed me for those decisions (controlling him so he didn't do what he wanted). It seems that entire sequences of events that I'm blamed for are living only in my husband's head, not in the real world.<P>You would think, after 18 months of kiss-up to an inconsiderate adulterer, he would realize that I'm NOT going to bite his head off if he confesses. I've had endless opportunities to do this all along and never have. Yet he still won't talk.<P>Nellie, the not being able to thank us completely fits this model. Also, the other common traits of not being able to look us in the eyes, not saying hello or goodbye, and rarely using our names. It's like they can't even deal with our existence.<P>Murphy, I really think it's much easier for them to pack up their bags and run away than to look at their role in this reflected back through our eyes. Avoiders ALWAYS take the easiest solution. The challenge for us - how can we make it easier for them to come back to us?<P>Medic, to me it's clear that they HAVE TO see themselves as different in order to continue on without getting suicidal. Harley told me this in a counseling session early on. I really do think alot of this is self protection. The thing that's weird about it, though, is how ingrained and believed it is. It is no act. The self-righteousness and relaxed comments (like the Clinton one) tells you it's what they really believe. How can that be?<P>Brknhrt, I really don't think my husband is a narcissist. Like so many of us die-hards on this forum, I've read up about this topic. Until this problem occurred in the marriage, he was a giving and considerate person. I did have legitimate issues with him that caused me to lose respect, but those were not them. He really did love the kids and me and was quite attentive to us. Still, I firmly believe that he respects and admires me. In fact, I'll suggest in some ways he's the opposite of a narcissist. He's jealous of my successes, particularly the financial and career ones. I overwhelmed him and even though he's quite successful in his own right, he doesn't feel it when placed alongside me. This is one of the fundamental problems in the marriage. To further make this point, his OW is older, uneducated, and from a different racial and social class altogether. He's a vice president and she's a supervisor of minimum wage assembly workers in the plant under his management.<P>Unfortunately, I do concur that this is hard to treat. One of the maxims through this process is that you can't make the betrayers see things, they have to see them for themselves (aka - "you can't control someone else's behavior", and "you can't help someone who won't help themself". I hate that maxim. It makes me powerless to do anything except wait. I've tried it for ages and I can't live with it forever.<P>Sidney, depending on your interpretation, I really have forgiven him. I treat him lovingly and with respect. For the most part, I'm not harboring anger and I don't say bad things behind his back. I really go out of my way to keep the kids connected and respectful of him. I KNOW he sees this and knows it's true. I think I have given this gift of forgiveness to myself.<P>On several occasions I have written letters to my husband describing and apologizing for my errors. I have never suggested that he's done anything wrong, either. The truth is, HE WON'T FORGIVE ME for my far lesser sins. I think he has to hold on to his blame of me to be comfortable with what he's doing. Yet at the same time, I see him being very gentle and respectful of me in recent months. He is a mystery.<P>MENTAL, in a way they are insane. Harley describes it that way. I guess I'm seeing enough confirmation on this thread to conclude that it's not the true insanity I was thinking when I started. It's reasonably common among conflict-avoiding infidels.<P>Tootrusting, I have never heard my husband speak about grandiose love for the OW, but I think he went through that phase with her. There was a time when he had no availability to be with his family. It must have taken alot to get him to leave a newborn as well as the son he adores. I think he too had this grand passion and was stupidly driven by it. I also think it has passed. His behavior in recent months has been much different towards the kids and really towards me too. I concur with your major point - you can't really reach them until the bloom comes off the rose. You should wait it out and then see what you can do to address the underlying issues. I feel badly for you because the point you're at is really the hardest part, but there's so little you can do. Keep writing the letters and I suggest simple cards, too. Basically, you're keeping the fact that you love him in the front of his mind, really for after the affair blows up. Letters were the only way I could reach my husband. I never got a response until last month, yet I know he read them all and was affected. Keep coming here for support and we'll help you through the wait.<P>Thanks again everyone. This is great feedback.

Distressed,<P>Do you have any thoughts on what to do when you can't send letters/e-mails? He has told me that he doesn't want any communication whatsoever unless it is about important matters concerning the kids. I got the impression that he doesn't even want to hear anything about the kids unless it relates to a decision that he would legally be entitled to participate in - I think he only rarely asks them anything about what they have been doing on a day-to-day basis. Either that or she doesn't want him to have any non-essential communication with me. <P>

Nellie, have you thought about having the kids send e-mails or letters??? After the initial complete lack of regard for our kids, my H seems to be reconnecting to them. They call and e-mail and they draw pictures. They also have taken up a hobby of his so they can do it together.<P>My D's counselor suggested that each child have a box and when they miss their Dad they could put something in it (a photo, drawing, even a leaf) and then they can give the stuff in the box to him when they see him.<P>I don't know if your H's Op has sucked his brain out so much he will reject it from your kids too, but it is one way to force them to see things.....My son drew a group of hearts....one was broken and then put back together....My H didn't say anything but got misty-eyed.<P>Distressed--My H was also very loving and generous to both our children and me prior to this event. It was truly like a switch went off. But his behavior was definately narcissistic after...at least in the beginning. He even commented that he was never close to his sibs and mom....that they are doing their "mere mortal things" (my words) and he is doing his "special" thing (again, my words). I think he actually needed to BECOME this different better thing on a higher plane of existance to be able to justify this.......<P>For my H it really does seem to be kind of a "pity party" as his sister calls it. Like he wasn't getting enough admiration and attention at home...the kids were doing their things and I was busy taking care of the home front, and probably putting him off a bit due to my frustrations of having him work alllllllllllll of the time. Op grovels for him. I do not think he would like it forever.<P>I knew from the beginning of our relationship that I would have to give more to him in terms of admiration and attention. I guess I have gotton tired of it in the last year or two. In many ways it has not been a two way street. He has never been able to see his part in things. <P>Yes it is a difficult place to be. I think he is a wonderful man and I love him. I am willing to work hard on the marraige. He has a supportive family and kids that adore him. BUt I cannot control him or make him SEE things. I want to so badly but can't....<P>Right now I am kind of a kept mother. He gets to go to work and get his fix of admiration and I guess he sees it as loyalty, and then he comes here and gets his fix of kids and me....the person who keeps the home front running.....<P>Me not working was a mutually agreed upon thing following children. For me to work I would have to move. Working here would put me in their face and I won't do that.<P>I will, however, find a place for me so that I can have a life too. I will not be a kept mom forever. He knows that and I think it bothers him....<P>What worries me is how he would be able to get out of all the lies he has told to people at work (since they are there together) and in the community. He's not going to be able to have both worlds. Probably the easiest thing for him to do would be to let me go find my own life. He would support the kids well. Even if he didn't end up in a relationship with Op he could continue to work with her, convince himself that it was not her it was me and never have to face up to what he has done.<P>So, the question is, how can we make it safe for these avoiders to come home, yet maintain self respect and respect for our children????

tootrusting,<P>I doubt that my H would reject e-mails from the kids, but he has made it very clear to them that he doesn't really want them to be open about their feelings, even though he told me and the counselor that he did. They have told me that they are afraid that if they antagonize him, he will stop loving them. Add to that the fact that most of them are conflict avoiders just like he is, and I doubt that they would ever consider telling their father that how they feel. Our son has tried a couple of times, and I think he felt rebuffed. <P>A couple of weeks ago our 4 year old clung to him crying, "Don't leave", and he finally asked me to take her. I had to peel her off of him. She cried for about half an hour after he left. If any of that had any affect on him, he sure didn't make it obvious. <BR>

Hi Everyone,<P>After reading all these posts, I want to add this to the mix.<P>Have you noticed how each betrayer seems to have their own definition of an affair and of cheating? Here's what I mean. My husband became involved with a long time friend, yet he denied that they had an affair. His reasoning? Because although they were physically involved, they never actually had intercourse. So he CLAIMED they had never had an affair or really done anything wrong.<P>When I confronted the other woman, she admitted that she had initiated the physical contact, but claimed that after she kissed and hugged him, she just "let him" do everything else, so she considered herself blameless.<P>I have read on this site about betrayers who claim it is not an affair unless sex is involved; about betrayers who think even if they are having sex it is not an affair unless they are "in love";about betrayers who claim it is not an affair because they are "in love" with the OP so that makes it all right; and pretty much every other possible combination. Don't forget the claims of being "soulmates" and the claims of "God brought us together for a reason" and every other possible excuse. There also seems to be a number of people who subscribe to the idea that it is only wrong if you get caught!<P>The point of this ramble is that it seems to me that betrayers are very good at justifying and excusing their behaviors. I have also noticed that the posters here who are most successful at recovery are those whose betraying spouse has admitted their betrayal and recognized it for what it is- adultery.<P>I must admit that I have my own definition of cheating, and my husband and I have agreed to use it in our marriage from now on- If you are doing ANYTHING that you would not do in the presence of your spouse, you are doing something wrong!<P>Another related question I would like to see addressed is this, since we are mainly talking about male betrayers: How much of the affair was caused by the male ego and his desire to be admired and stroked? I think this was the main cause for my husband's affair.<P>This has really been a great thread. I hope it will continue.<P>Peppermint

I'm not a psychologist.<P>But here is DSM Criteria for Avoidant Personality Disorder<BR> <A HREF="http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/courses/Avoidpd.html" TARGET=_blank>http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/courses/Avoidpd.html</A> <P>Avoidant personality disorder (APD) is considered to be an active-detached personality pattern, meaning that avoidants purposefully avoid people due to fears of humiliation and rejection......<P>A pervasive pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, and hypersensitivity to negative evaluation, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more ) of the following:<P>1. avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection<P>2. is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked<P>3. shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed<P>4. is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations<P>5. is inhibted in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy<P>6. views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others<P>7. is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing.<P>One of the ways that APD manifests itself, (among many - read the article)<P>Primary Defense Mechanism.... To cope with their unhappiness, people with APD often escape into fantasy which is "a 'safe' medium in which to discharge affection, aggression, or other impulses that would otherwise be inappropriate, uncomfortable, or impossible to achieve in reality, " (Millon & Everly, 1985, p. 178) Avoidants will tend to read, watch TV or daydream to escape from reality.