I really think this is the most painful, exhausting thing I've ever encountered.<P>One minute you are making plans, telling each other "I love yOu", doing things with and for the kids, and the next moment I hear "there's nothing we can do" "It's not about her....it's about you" You know the rest.<P>Of course, I didn't know there were any signigicant problems. ANd we have always had discussions about our relationship, how it was going etc.<P>Plus, I've warned him about the OP. But I always trusted my H. He had always been honest, loving, affectionate. He wasn't even distant before this happened.<P>He goes on a business trip for 10 days and that's it. Suddenly he was only pretending in our relationship he just didn't know it.<P>Now, he started off the process very mean to me and very disconnected from the kids. <P>He wouldn't go to marraige counseling, but did get talked into (by me and his family) going to counseling for himself.<P>Anyway, we have yet to discuss WHAT happened and WHAT we are going to do about it. THis thing just keeps going on.... I am doing plan A the best I can with him not living here. He has been coming over more frequently to see the kids. Plan A has been going better since he stopped being so mean. <P>He seems to be softening, but I don't know where to begin. It is really hard to get over the devastation of being told your H was only pretending for 13 years. (now that he knows what "true love"is he understands that) How do you explain that to your kids. <P>I do not want my H to feel "trapped by me and the kids" like he said. <P>It's hard to get over that and begin to ask the first questions. <P>It's so sad too, because it seems like a fair amount of this was out of my control. He spends so much of his "good" time with her enjoying the freedom from responsibilities and getting a lot of stimulating conversation and admiration.....while I am at home taking care of the "responsibilities".<P>Much of what he has said I have not been doing for him has to do with the above and I can't control that. He has equated the above with "now that I'm feeling so good about myself I realize that it has been my wife that has been the problem. I must never have loved her"..<P>I wish I could show him the MB info and the SAA book, but I think it is too soon. <P>How have any of you approached the important subjects....with your spouses.....?????

Dear tootrusting,<BR>I'm sure I won't be the only person telling you how your story looks so much like mine <BR>I got most of what you wrote here, and tehn some.<P>Interesting the fact that my H also went on a business trip and came back completely different.<P>The rest is all the same, down to the "it will work" one day and "there's nothing that can be done " the other.<P>One month into the affair, we went camping with the kids - a promisse we had made way before everything happened - He seemed to have a great time - darn it! I knew he had a good time! - , was relaxed and playfull, spent the time making plans of things we needed for future camping trips together, looking at the maps finding other campgrounds that we would enjoy , talking about the future as if there was no doubt we would be together forever. We came back, and one week later - coincidence, I wasn't even thinking about snooping - I find him coming out of a hotel with the ow, he feels all defensive and ends up going home and pack to leave.<P>Or he would tell me he was just staying until he saved money for rent on an apartment for him, and then he would be spending money on things that we didn't really need, or weren't that important ( like a new table for the kitchen, when the old one was perfectly good), taking us out to eat, going together for shows and things like that.<P>Before that business trip, he had never showed he was feeling any kind of problems in our marriage, but boy did he find plenty after he came back. Hey, he was even able to recreate the past in a way that helped him justify everything he was doing - independently from the fact that most things had never eally happened or had happened in a different way than what he was recalling.<P>During the first months, I tried to approach him in many ways. I decided to give every approach a fair trial but be reasy to change it if I couldn't see any results. I tried in so many ways... The results were always the same... not that good. He wasn't open for discussion, if he was he would just adopt a defensive attitude and by doing that he wouldn't really listen to what was being said ( as soon as I started talking he would be finding a way of justifying whatever I was talking about, and while thinking so hard, he couldn't hear anything else -.<BR>I was having a hard time, and didn't even had the benefit of this forum at that time. Found MB much later.<BR>Until it hit me.<P>I was going about it all wrong. He wouldn't listen. He couldn't. He was totally involved in this "dream like" relationship with this "better than anybody" person. He wasn't thinking about anything else.<BR>Sometimes it felt like if I was able to create the cure for a deadly disease, I would still be doing something wrong, and if she managed to start world war III she would still be doing something great!<P>I was trying my own version of plan A - what is now called plan A - and feeling awfull since he wasn't accepting any love deposits. Actually, if he had no chance but accept a love deposit he would react like he was mad at himself by doing it.<P>We talked a lot. Full nights of talking that took us nowhere, except a bad day at work, for not having slep at all.<P>I realised at that time, that even when things seemed to look a little better, if I tried to talk then, it would just get worse, and things would go back a few steps. I had to change that pattern.<P>Emergency rooms came to mind. How people assess and treat the life threatning situations first, and then after go back and take care of the rest.<P>After getting this idea things got simpler, I just adapted that to our situation. <BR>It was an emergency situation. SO had to be assessed. What was the major problem, the one that was really "life threatning " to our marriage? NO , not the affair... not really, that was more a consequence than a cause.If things were fine before, the affair would probably not have happened at all. SO first emergency treatment was to find what was weak in our marriage before the affair. Identify any problem areas and try to fix them if possible . With - more often than not , without , at least at first- his cooperation.<P>Yes discussing what was happening was important. What were we going to do about it too. But we couldn't discuss it while he was on another wavelenght, it would never work. This part was one of the things that had to wait untill the "patient" was out of critical condition. <P>As soon as I started in this direction, I started getting better results. No the affair didn't end right there, but he seemed to enjoy more staying home, and talk to me - about anything light and relaxing, not the affair -.<BR>He was feeling that he could come home and not being judged or manipulated - I left this part for her, and she did it so well, it really got him mad! -.<P>I did tell him what I was going to do, just before I started. I told him I loved him and that I was sure we could work things out. I told him that I would keep trying, even if he thought it wouldn't work. I also told him that I wouldn't help him by making up his mind for him, and telling him to leave, he would have to do that one himself. I told him that I was able to wait for him to make his choice and wouldn't take that power away from him, but that I wouldn't be waiting forever. And that I wouldn't talk about it again unless he started the conversation or showed that he was ready to talk about it. ( I almost did it too! Actually I did pretty good. SLipped one or two times, but nothing major -.<P>So home was non threatning to him. He felt confortable in familiar surroundings, and we actually reconnect quite a lot during this time. talked a lot about what changes we had been trough, what different goals and dreams we had, things that we both enjoyed, stuff like that. No pressure at all, no need to defend himself from anything.<P>I know that for some people this might not work. Each one of us know our spouses better than anyone. In my case, one wrong step and he would bolt out and then even if he realized later he had made a mistake he would not admit it, and wouldn't come back even if it killed him. But I know my H and know how he reacts. Not everybody is the same.<P>To help me with all the unanswered questions, I started a small journal, where I would write down any question I felt I needed an answer to. He knew about it, and was free to take a look, but never did. Not then.<P>As time passed and we kept having better and better time together, is meetings with the ow, decreased to the point that she was getting worried and page him as much as over 27 times in a day.But all this took time.<BR>Affair started in June 98, I found it out in the same week it started. Things got worse in August - when he packed to leave - and in September he finally agreed to counseling. Actually I only brough it out in the begining. Never pressed him about it anymore, although I told him ( which was true ) that I weas going to go by myself. He was the one who called me in September and asked me to find a counselor.<P>By the end of September he was spending most of his free time home, and ow was getting really mad.<P>In October he decided he wanted to work on the marriage and ended the affair, but there was still some sort of contact for a bit longer.<P>Withdrawl started, and fortunately in our case it wasn't too bad ( one or two serious episodes, and a couple of weeks of on and off down periods ).<P>In November he changed his schedule so he wouldn't be working the same hours she was.<P>In December I decided the "patient" was in stable condition and talking was safe. It was finally possible to talk about what had happened without his defensive answers, and he was open ( as much as possible in his case, being an extremelly closed person that has trouble talking about his feelings at any time )to dialogue. <BR>WE were able to discuss what we wanted to do, and what we were willing to compromise in our relationship. <P>the book with all the questions? that took a bit longer still. By the time it felt right, I asked him to read it, and answer them if he could. Writing feels safer than talking sometimes, plus he didn't have to be thinking about an excuse while I was posing the question, thus not paying proper attention to it.<P>Curiously enough, by that time many of the questions I had were not that important anymore, and I ended up crossing off many of them.<BR> He left many in blank the first time.But kept the book with him, and would answer a new one every once in a while.<P>Well all this, to tell you that maybe you shoudl treat this one as an "emergency situation". take care of the most serious problems before, and wait until he's able to talk with you without all the defensiveness, and without thinking about the ow while he's answering.<P>AS I said, talk about it is important, but it doesn't help if one is not ready for the conversation.<P>Hope this helps.<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Kat, Thanks so much for your reply. It is really helpful. A problem I have is coming to the real issues.<P>Your analogy about you finding a cure for cancer and she starting WWIII is a good one.<P>He is soooooooo enthralled with her, so impressed. And if he stepped back and looked at her like the rest of us have he would see the flaws. One being that she is married with children that she is not taking care of because she is working such long hours with him and being a basket case the rest of the time (via her H)<P>But the issues are the problem.. I think they may be related to me not giving him enough attn. at home. Things have been very stressful in his job for the past two yrs. He basically had to start over and work very long hours building his business up. She of course was right there doing it all for him.<P>I suppose whenhe called I was not always sweet to him because I was overwhelmed with small kids and being by myself. <P>Now I am by myself and still overwhelmed and devastated but I am being sweet to him.<P>He doesn't let me get affectionate though. It's like he is betraying her. (and I think this is only an EA at this point with some physical contact)<P>I guess I have been thinking that the best way to approach this is as you have. I just can't talk about it. I have been trying to make the home a safe place and he has reconnected with the kids. He does talk to me more in a more relaxed way. <P>He knows I won't wait forever either. I realize I cannot make him choice.. I told him I was not stopping him from doing what he wanted to do. <P>Unfortunately, she has been so loyal and helpful in his job and has given him a sob story about her situation in life and what a wonderful, all giving person she is....and he seems willing to rescue her and conquer the world.......<P>He seems to think that being generous with the money to me is enough for me and the kids. We will be fine. He has found the meaning of life.<P>It is interesting that you use the word wavelength, because he said that to me. <P>I like your idea about a journal. I think I also need to write down the kid issues so he can deal with them also. My children are really confused as well. Their dad was a very hands on dad. He helped with homework, and showed up at all functions. He came home from work and we sat down to dinner together. It could be choatic at times and I know he couldn't handle the stress. <P>BUt I can't make the kids magically become little robots.<P>He has to also decide that being a workaholic is not the "drug" that will make him feel great about his life. I can't do that for him either.<P>Thanks again for your input.

Hi, tootrusting....I'm with Kat. Robert wasn't a lot different. Do you know that the whole time after discovery (before he left) and the whole time he was gone, we never EVER could talk about us, or them, or marriage or anything! Not the problems, not what led us to this, nothing.<P>But, I tried to figure it out on my own, and Plan A'd the best I could long-distance! And he is home. And working as hard as I am on this marriage, if not harder. Many things, we've NEVER discussed, might never discuss them. Many things aren't so important to me anymore.<P>Just hang in there, and follow Kat's advice. It's terrific.<P>Lori

Thanks so much for this answer Kat, I think it applies to my situation too. The only problem is my situation has gone on much longer. It seems so hard to continue. I know its supposed to be good they are still in the house, but sometimes I wish he wasn't as I fell so lonely and frustrated that its hard to continue a plan A when I know that every time I am at work and he is off he sees her. Yesterday he came home and I could smell her perfume on his shirt. <BR> But he reacts the same way to discussions about it. We went on vacation and had a pretty good time, but came home and he is more distant than ever. Maybe it is a reaction to having some fun with me on vacation. <BR> Thanks for the encouraging words. I will try and hang in there a little longer.<BR>Lora

Like always, Kat is right on in her advise. The best things I did were to make home a "safe place". One where he was not always on the grill for what he had been doing. I did not find out until after the ow moved, but phone contact continued with her for quite some time after that -- unknown to me. During that time I was Plan A which made a huge difference in how I my h looked at me. Ow was my h "soul mate", now she is a big mistake that he made. There are times of course when he still misses her and wonders about her and those are things that I have to accept. I chose very carefully the things that I had to know because I did not want him dwelling on her because of my questions. Yes, my h did feel guilty when he had fun with me, when we would have sex, and even when he would tell me that he loved me. Only in the last 2 wks has he begone to regularly tell me that he loves me and discovery was 9 months ago. This takes way more time than we want, takes way more work than we want and our spouse may never do any of the work. My h has never gone to any counseling -- I went alone. My h has never read a book -- I have read volumes. Those are the different ways we handle problems. He ignores them and hopes they go away, I need to be doing something. At times I do share things that I read, but try to keep that to a minimum as I don't want to become his mom and some book said to give up coaching. Through this all, I have worked on improving me -- What can I do to make things better around here. Do I have unrealistic expectations? Change them. Give up "the right to be right". You have every right to be mad, but what do you get when you keep on being mad -- nothing. Work on you and your h will resond! Throw away all of your unattractive underwear and get new pretty (some sexy) underwear! Color your hair, get a new haircut, get your nails done. I have three children 9,8, and 5 so I know that I was not the woman my h married. Now I am better--not for him but for me. Hang in there and when you think you can do it no more, do is a little bit longer! It really works

tootrusting:<P>I think this is a very difficult situation for you being married to a conflict avoider. What is best - to avoid or to confront?<P>Broadly speaking, I like Kat1's advice. It's what I've done. And look what I've got 19 months later - a very friendly husband who doesn't live with me, still has an OW, and still won't talk to me about issues. However, I am convincing myself that FINALLY, I am making deposits into his lovebank. I am seeing evidence of it. But it has taken so looooooong. And I still don't really have anything.<P>I'll be straight up in my advice to you:<P>1) You CAN'T COMPETE with an affair. You will lose every time. The affair is fantasy, the OW is perfect, forget about it. WHAT I READ FROM YOU IS TYPICAL IN THIS REGARD. You have to wait until it's over or at least dead in his mind before what you do starts to matter. Accept this and save yourself alot of aggravation about why nothing you do seems to work.<P>2) You CANNOT CONTROL your husband. It is highly likely that he will come out of this craziness eventually (aka the fog), but according to Harley it could take two years.<P>3) All you can control, and fix, is yourself. Take the good advice given and address all the things you believe need improving. I know that like my husband, he hasn't really given you much to work with here. Do a critical self assessment, ask some friends and family, and take a whack at it yourself.<P>4) Bunker in for the long haul. If you knew that at the end of a two year period your husband would try to reconcile, what would you be doing with your time now? Do it. Whether it's travel, decorating, socializing, whatever, get out and live. Don't wait around for him and let further resentments build.<P>5) Ask for and accept help with the kids. Don't let your responsibilities overwhelm you. The world is full of babysitters and helpful family and friends. Now is your time to use them. You would do it for them. Do whatever you have to so you can have a life. You can ask for some help from your husband, but don't expect him to follow-through too often (that was my experience until the last few months. Now, my husband is helpful and reliable with the kids. This aspect does change over time in most cases.)<P>6) In your shoes, I would seriously consider Plan B, or the Divorce Busting similar version called Last Resort. The point of both of these is that you can't change the situation between your husband and his OW. Accept it and try to minimize the pain you feel (and draining of your lovebank) by staying away from him. Stop trying so hard. I have speculated here during my ordeal that Plan A during an inlove affair deposits ten cents on the dollar. You do it as a pleasant memory for later, when the affair is over and he's thinking about what to do. To be honest, I don't think it's even that much. YOUR ACCOUNT IS PRACTICALLY CLOSED IN YOUR HUSBAND'S LOVE BANK DURING THIS KIND OF SOULMATE AFFAIR. It is my strong opinion that you lose very little regarding the marriage by minimizing contact, but you gain a huge amount of control over your own life.<P>I periodically listen to Harley's radio show of Real Player. It's quite good. Here's an interesting tidbit from him: "The reason there are so many divorces are that people divorce too soon. The odds of an affair working out are so low that it's not really worth talking about. The real issue that needs to be addressed is how to protect your love for your husband so that when he wants to reconcile, you will be open to it.". Think about Lor and Guard as a real-life example of this. Now, if you accept this premise (which I think is quite often right based on my readings here), what would you do differently?<P>When you start to re-engage (when the affair dies down), start out by being a friend. Harley said this too on his radio show "when you become a friend again, you can start making deposits in his love bank". This is what I've noticed in my situation too. You have to go through stages to get the marriage back. You can't skip the friendship and courtship ones. But once you see that you're able to make deposits, you KNOW what to do. I certainly know what to do recreationally, what gifts to buy, where to go to dinner, what to do as a family, that makes my "old husband" happy. I've been doing it and I do think it's working FINALLY. Whether it will go far enough during the next few months before I give up is another question entirely.<P>Regarding your central question about how to deal with the urgent issues, I can only tell you what I've done, which has mostly worked. While I was never able to talk to my husband about the marriage, his affair, his feelings, the future, etc., I have been able to simply address child support payments, visitation and some simple responsibilities (many of which he didn't follow-through on). Early on, I scheduled a meeting with him and made a list of expenses and child-related responsibilities. We talked it through. He offered me an amount of money, which was far too low. I presented my viewpoint but didn't argue with him. Instead, months later, I told him that there was no point in our debating this, that there were standards in place for child support. I told him I was filing a child custody order with the DA's office and he said to go ahead. I did and they gave me another $400/month. It really took minimum discussion and almost no arguing.<P>The bottom line on all this is that there's little you can do while the affair is this hot. Your husband is not thinking clearly and making many mistakes. You can't expect much from him, but gently negotiate what you can on the ramification issues, but leave him alone about the feelings/guilt stuff. It's not the right time. As Kat1 said, you're going to have to wait until it cools down and it becomes safer to talk. I think it could be quite a while - six months or longer.<P>So to close on the opening paragraph, I think it's best to avoid the "tough stuff" while the affair is this hot. When it cools, become a friend first. Then, over time, extend it further. Best of luck. I know what you're going through.