Hi.<P>I have never posted here before, but have lurking around and reading your posts for a couple of months.<P>Am posting because I believe my husband of two years is having an affair. He totally denies it, but in my heart I know that he is. He sounds so convincing when I talk to him about it, but after reading some of the posts here from both betrayers and betrayed and what goes on during the affair and how the person acts, I am pretty much convinced. Betrayers, can you relate to the behavior my spouse is displaying?<P>As background, hubby has always been dependent on others. He suffers from low self esteem and I believe has been depressed for at least a year. I have done my best to be supportive. I have encouraged him to get medical help. I have tried to make him feel good about himself--I might add that during this time none of my needs have been met. In the last three or four months, things completely changed. He started getting nasty and self absorbed (well, more so than usual–I have often felt he is verbally and emotionally abusive at times due to his esteem problems). He told me he no longer loved me, no longer wanted to be married, wanted to be free of responsibilities. Doesn’t think we are good for one another (he believes I am responsible for causing his esteem problems, when he is the one who has been abusive–if anyone should be suffering, it is me). I had suggested counseling in the past, mainly because his abusiveness and lack of commitment to me was taking its toll. He said he didn’t feel it was necessary because he didn’t think there were any problems–that my over-sensitivity caused me to imagine any problems.<P>I never would have believed he would have an affair–totally goes against everything he ever has told me (his dad even left his mom for another woman, which traumatized him). However, whenever I mention to my friends how he is acting the first thing they ask is–is he seeing someone? I never believed it was a possibility and I don’t have any physical evidence, but I did snoop around. <P>Earlier in the year, he decided we would both get cell phones (around the time this started happening), but was very adamant about us both getting our own accounts in our own names–and our own bills. Even though the salesman said getting one together would be much cheaper. I thought it was odd, but he said he felt like he had lost his identity in our marriage and wanted something of his own. Well, after the weird behavior, I got a hold of one of his bills and discovered he had been calling a woman several times a day every day on the cell phone. I got her name and numbers out of his address book and matched them up. She is someone he works with–I found that out by snooping too.. He also has been working late a lot and has a whole bunch of excuses why. I might also mention that I have tried calling him at times when he is at work late, but he has his phone on voice mail (according to him, it is to avoid distractions–yeah right). <P>I confronted him about the evidence I found in the phone bill, and he says she is just a friend he confides in about our problems. He completely denies any other involvement. I find it odd, since he has never even mentioned this friend to me, and I am most definitely not the jealous type. Another thing–he had been kind of unmotivated and spent a lot of time moping around and staring at the boob tube. Now he is totally motivated at getting this divorce done and over with (not even a separation). He has not even told his family about this nor talked to any of his other friends about it–I believe because he knows they will tell him something he doesn’t want to hear. He has been running around like a man on a mission. <P>I found I could not take it anymore ( the perceived lying and sneaking around on his part), and told him I was leaving. We made plans to divide up everything and he said he wanted to buy the house, which is why I am moving. <P>I guess my question is, do you think he is having an affair? If he is, then I don’t think I could ever go back (since I told him I had found a place to live, he acted very remorseful and expressed hope that perhaps things could work out–with some time apart to “figure things out”). He has said some extremely horrid things and treated me like something he could just toss aside once he found something better. I would have a difficult time getting over the demon he has become. I have always been a very good wife and very attentive to his needs. I think the depression clouded his thoughts and he grasped onto anything that would make him feel good about himself. Believe me, I was very sympathetic to him before, but since this happened, self preservation has become my main concern. I find at times I absolutely despise him for doing this to me and that I would be 100 times better off without him.<P>He would have to become a different person for me to even considering working at this. My other question is (to both betrayers and betrayed) can someone actually change that much? Is there any hope for this, or should I just count my blessing that we never had kids and move on? Any advice would be appreciated. Also, reading your stories has helped me a lot. I never realized being married would be so difficult, and I question whether I would want to torture myself going through something so painful again. I hope there is a rainbow. . .

Hokiemoma,<P>Welcome to MB. You have found the right place. This is the place where you can come and scream, cry , or just vent. <P>I am a betrayer. You kinda scared me at first. You sounded like my OM wife. LOL! <BR>First, I must say. Your friends and everybody is 99.9% right. I can almost bet you he is having an affair. I acted the very same way. I was very very mean when I left my H. It didnt even bother me that he was crying his heart out. All I though was that the OM was there for me. And he wouldnt hurt me like H did. <BR>I became very very heartless. This was not even the person that I was. I was always against affairs, divorce, etc. I though people that done where all trash. <BR>Before I knew it. I was having an affair. <P>Also, My OM use to tell his W the same thing. Her friend caught us at the park one day. He told her that he was talking to me regarding their marriage. That I was going to help them out. And she was to nieve to see it. <BR>And the cell phone thing. That was the whole reason I got it. I needed it to talk to OM. <BR>I dont want to hurt you here. However I have been here for a little while. I have seen and heard alot. I can almost bet you he is having an affair. Being that I am the betrayer, and I confessed mine. I dont know what to tell you about catching him. I think most suggest that if you think you can handle it. Then you need proof. I told my H about mine. He didnt know about it. So that is up to you. There are alot of post here to tell you how to catch them. <P>As far as you forgiving him. That is something that is up to you. All you can do is pray. I will tell you this though, So will everyone else. It takes 2 to destroy a marriage. As well as 2 to build it. To you it may seem all his fault, vice-versa. But I can promise you this. It took both of you. Im not saying he s right. He is WRONG. That does not justify what he has done. There is no excuse. But the bottom line here is this.<BR>SHE IS MEETING HIS NEEDS.......<BR>It isnt that she is this beautiful drop dead gorgeous woman. Or that she is the sweetest thing since Apple pie. She is just meeting his need. Something that you werent doing. Trust me. Im there now. And thank God he convicted me. We are building a marriage like we never had before. <P>Prayer to you and your family hokie!<BR>God Bless,<BR>Renee<P>P.S. Keep me updated. Im usually in the general questions forum. You will get more responses there.<BR>

Welcome <B>hokiemomma</B>...<P>I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P>A while ago... the "main" forum was divided into 4 separate "sub" forums... and a new one added...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Just+found+out...&number=29&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Just found out...</A>...for those new the forum... pre/post "discovery" of an affair or possible affair.<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Plan+A/Plan+B&number=30&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Plan A/Plan B</A>...usually after "discovery of the affair"...for those with questions of "what to do now?"<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=In+recovery&number=31&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>In recovery</A>...when a commitment to work on marriage by both spouses has begun.<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=34&SUBMIT=Go" TARGET=_blank>Divorcing/Divorced</A>...when efforts at reconciliation fail or are failing.<BR>We are being asked to post the forums that make the most sense with respect to our questions/vents and not just dump everything into the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=General+Questions&number=28&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>General Questions</A> forum because it will give you the most responses! <P><B>About your post</B>...<P>I think you are still in a very raw state...<BR>...slowing everything down just a bit might help.<P>Now that you're separated...<BR>...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> becomes so much harder...<P>FYI... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A: Avoid <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html" TARGET=_blank>angry outbursts</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html" TARGET=_blank>disrespectful judgments</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3404_selfish.html" TARGET=_blank>selfish demands</A>, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3403_annoy.html" TARGET=_blank>annoying behavior</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3405_dishonesty.html" TARGET=_blank>dishonesty</A> (i.e. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A>!) at all costs. (page 75 of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A>)...<B>and</B> at the same time, if your spouse would let the you, you should try to meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>. (page 77 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you think you still have sufficient love for him... try it(<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>)... for few month's at least.<P>About your questions...<BR>"I guess my question is, do you think he is having an affair?...<BR><B>YES</B>... it is called an Emotional Affair(EA)... and everfy bit as devasting as a Physical Affair(PA)!<P>"can someone actually change that much?"<BR><B>YES... YES... and YES</B>...<BR>The affair is an addiction... and nothing causes more turn arounds in a life that an addiction of this type!<P>"Is there any hope for this"...<BR><B>Yes</B>... but you have to want it first. By reading the posts on this forum... and concepts... you must come to the decision to <B>want</B> it. If you don't want it...there is nothing to do... but learn how to build a relationship with another man... <B>that</B> in and of itself is made difficult by giving up now. But it is <B>your</B> choice.<P>Have you considered counseling...<BR>...be careful of the counselors that say "do what's best for you"... they miss the boat on what <B>life</B> is all about!<P>I'm praying for your thoughtful decision... <P>Jim

Hokiemoma,<P>I was just curious, are you a VA TECH Hokies fan? Im in Bristol, VA. That is why I asked.<P>Prayers to you <BR>Renee

Thanks for your replies. Sorry I posted in the wrong place. Can I move my post elsewhere?<P>To Renee, yes I am a Hokie. Glad to meet you. I have visited Bristol before--have relatives down there.<P>I realize it takes two to tear down a marriage, but it is unconsionable to me that he would do this. He has told me things that I have done wrong, but doesn't seem to care about how he hurt me now and in the past. I have always been willing to put our marriage above all else and do what needs to be done to keep it on track. And I have often felt I was at the bottom of his list of priorities. <P>As for my part in this, he says I have said things to make him believe he is not a good person. However, it is not difficult to make him feel bad about himself--my pointing out to him that his namecalling and verbal abusiveness were unacceptable made him feel bad about himself. That was not my intention--I only wanted to point out behavior that was hurtful and unacceptable to me so he could change it. I did it in a nice manner. <P>Although he has been horrible to me the past few months, an affair has never crossed my mind--we probably haven't been physical in 4 to 6 months. And I am a physical person. That is until this happened. I thought he was a man I could trust completely. <P>Through it all, I am still not to keen on trying to go out and meet someone else, though I very much want to feel needed and loved. Anyway, don't know what will happen. At times I can barely stomach talking to him. Other times, I feel for him. I know he is making a terrible mistake, and one day he will regret it, but I feel at this point I need to take care of myself. THen when he sees what he has done, it may very well be too late.<P>Anyway, I welcome any additional input. I will keep everyone posted.

Inamess;<BR>read most of your posts in a search, Got a question for you as a betrayer, I am the H of a betrayer, 7 mos into recovery doing well, had some bumps.<BR> Topic, Contact<BR>My W's OM is a parent on our mutal kids sports team. I.E, his son our son etc...<BR>We choose to let our (15yrs) son stay instead of pull from the team, as our pastor suggested strongly. We didn't for his benefit, other than one little problem back in Jan, its been ok, we are building a great marriage, I frequently either see, talk, or email the OM. He fell allover himself appolgizing when I caught the EA on my W's email. It was about 2 weeks out from becoming a full P.A.! But we all know it happens in the mind long before actually fullfilling it. <BR>or acting out the mental images.<BR>We still see him, even yesterday we were at the practice field together we all spoke as if nothing ever happened. His W does not know. She even suggested to the OM that we should get together more often with us! <BR>I feel so bad for not telling her early on, Dday was 9/8/99. Back when I had my first chat w/ the OM in Nov99, I told him I would not tell if he did what I said. He never broke any of my rules. Well...one phone call ,but it was for me and my W answered and they talked too long, that was 2/27.<BR>My W says that she is Not having "thoughts" of the OM at all. Yet I wondering if I am being stupid here, and naive. I actually like the guy putting this thing aside, weird! <BR>We are both BAC ( Christians) the OM is not.<BR>your thoughts? contact ---<BR>oh...we have a new sports season coming up and it is highly likley we will be on the same team again. <P>------------------<BR>jnvc

In continuation of my saga, my hubster is moving full force ahead with the divorce–he is even thinking of exaggerating about the separation time so it will be done quicker. I feel sad, since we have spent a total of 6 years together and because he seems to have forgotten everything good about me. On the other hand, I feel I will be better off because he was only meeting really one of my emotional needs (being a good financial provider) and really was not a great hubby. However, I was at one time willing to do whatever necessary to keep our marriage together, though I will admit he was not making me happy. For him the change was sudden (four months ago he wanted to start a family–today he doesn’t love me and wants a divorce as quick as possible). I guess that is what bothers me, I was unhappy for quite some time, but was willing to work on it. He told me it wasn’t worth the effort or work required to make it work after being unhappy for one month.<P>Anyway, my question is to betrayers and betrayed, do spouses who leave their partners for someone else (at least that is what I believe he is doing, but he has admitted no wrongdoing), do they ever regret their decision once the excitement wears off? I understand it is like an addiction, but if they just bolt from one relationship to start another can they ever truly be happy with themselves (since they essentially gave up on one relationship already without putting in the work)? Will he ever come to realize that he may have made a huge mistake? Can you offer me any advice on how to get through this? Thanks.

hokiemomma,<P>I'm not a betrayer nor am I betrayed....but I am the H of a W with very, very low self esteem....and know you need support....plus, I'm a Hokie and Hokies need to stick together.<P>I'm not going to offer you any opinion on your H's affair....I will address the low self esteem....(feel free to look at my threads in the EN section)....<P>My W suffers from very low self esteem....so low that she feels that if I really knew her, I couldn't love her....she hurts so much, she doesn't even like herself....and when I said our marriage was in trouble and needed work, she took that as rejection...<BR>I just found this out on Sunday.<P>This has taken a terrible toll on the marriage and on me.....I saw my counselor today and he agreed with me, my W needs professional help to develop a new positive self image.....<P>The counselor said, I'm in for a rough ride during her time of healing and it will not be a quick process....but, he said, she needs to know that I'll be there to support her....he said, left untreated, low self esteem can become an emotional handicap that affects ones relationships with others....<P>IMHO, until your H deals with the low self esteem issues, he will have difficulty developing intimate relationships....with you or the OW....<P>Be thankful you don't have kids....my W's low self esteem affects them too and how our family functions....<P>I'll tie some knots for you so you can hold on to the end of your rope....<P>Hang in There!!!!

Hokiemoma,<P>HONEY, WILL HE EVER REGRET THIS! Wait until the wool is jerked off his eye. Reality will set in. If your heart isnt in working on the marriage. Then I cant really give advice there. If you love him then I say work. But that is up to you. You know how you feel. <P>To anser your questions though. Honey, he will be calling you back. He is probably having an affair. That is the way they act. He is going to do everything to blame it on you also. Just get prepared.<P>Hope all goes well,<BR>Renee

Thanks Renee and Nowhereman for your replies.<P>Nowhereman--I did read some of your story before when I thought I was just dealing with a depression issue. It is a huge drain. That is for sure. As is the low self esteem issue. Before this all happened, he had told me he was very unhappy and couldn't pull himself out. HE had thoughts of suicide, etc. I convinced him to go to the Doc and get antidepressants, but he never even started taking them. Guess he met OW, got involved, and that was a drug enough. Now he sees me as the enemy--I am the horrible person that caused his misery. He just didn't know it at the time. It is difficult to feel you are trying your best to help someone get better and they begin to despise you. I know this sounds awful, but if things don't work out and I ever remarry--a positive self image and confidence are qualities I will focus on.<P>To Renee--how on earth did your husband not know you were having an affair? Did he not even have a clue? Kinda makes you wonder. Seems like there are always clues. I noticed a change pretty much immediately. I hope things are working out.<P>-Hokiemomma

Hokiemoma,<BR>he had no clue. He even told me this. he totally trusted me. Not to mention taht I was so lonely. He never even realized that I existed in this house. All he wanted was for me to be in the bed at night. Not sexually either. I was very careful. I never seen the OM at night or anything. My H done alot of hunting. So that was opportunity for me. <BR>I done a complete 360. I totally distance myself from him 2 years before this. I knew there was nothing left. So I thought I would go in my own little world. This is what that got me. AN AFFAIR!!! I guess we all learn the hard way!! <BR>Hope all is well<BR>Renee

Dear hokiemomma, Separate cell phone account, sounds like my H. But he was very open about it, very happy, even introduced me to OW, as his BestFriend, and our families became friendly. I was happy for him! He doesn't make friends easily. This past year (after the feathers hit the fan) I watched the size of his cell phone bills and monitored the progress of their friendship. For a few months (winter 99) there were no calls and he was very quiet, withdrawn, sad, didn't talk much, and then in the Spring, BAM the bill was up past $300 again. In the Winter he had been acting very depressed, quiet, but I was self-involved and didn't ask him what was wrong. (Part of the problem, I was not a very good W). H and OW no longer work together but they e-mail. Since I told him (in an angry emotional outburst) that I had noticed his cell phone bill was up again (and he doesn't call ME to chat on the way home from work) he got indignant and said "So now you're spying on me!" <P>He may very well have another cell phone which he pays by money order or cash, the bill stays level now. My H has been in an EA with this OW for years, and the feathers hit the fan in July. He denies he is depressed, and though we are in counseling (he did this with his back to the wall, and not willingly) and he is again acting normally, I can't trust. I am suspicious when there's something on his calendar, I want to ask if SHE is going to be there (but I don't). <P>Hokiemomma, it's an EA, possibly PA, he's doing the same things MY H did. My H has the nerve to tell me I'm selfish, and that he can't even invite his BestFriend to his own home! This hurts so much. It hurts to watch the way he acts when the OW is in the room, the way he used to act with me. <P>My H wants to divorce and live alone, but after our minor son has reached majority. Imagine that! Living together for 8 or so years, knowing that he considers me an obligation, doesn't desire me, admires this OW so much, <P>He used to talk to her about our problems. Mine, actually, and if a spouse is talking to another P about marriage problems, it is a way of telling the other P "You and I wouldn't have these problems, would we! You have insight, wisdom, perception. I need your help." Those kind of confidences are dangerous. Yes, your H is having an affair, [interrupted by our son coming into the room, sent post so he couldn't read what I am writing] <P>These boards are a good place to come. <p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited April 21, 2000).]