To SHA -<P>I've read much of your story and I too feel frustrated that my wife just can't seem to let go of the OM. We've been married twenty years and have two teenage sons. Her EA/PA went on for 15 months before discovery in October of 1999. I discovered the MB site shortly after and have been Plan A'ing now for six months. She said she ended the PA in January???? She still can't end the EA. I vacillate back and forth, but I too am not in favor of Plan B yet.<P>My reason for writing is I wanted to know if you've felt you needed to keep some of your sadness and/or depression reasonably well hidden from her or not? Do you think it's an LB to reveal too much of your own unhappiness? I'm fairly open with her about good and bad days. There's times when I think my bad days may cause her enough pain as to make her want to leave. I appreciate your response and hope you're doing well today.

Hi Tom, <P>You ask some good questions. The emotional attachment is by far the most difficult bond to break. Let me preface my response by first illustrating my Plan A. Many men aren't willing to go the extremes that I have nor are they willing to give unconditionally for as long as I have in the face of adversity.<P>My Plan A was mostly trial and error at first. I didn't find MB until several months after discovery. I was romancing a lady who did not want to be romanced (at least by me). Remember that everything you do either helps build their case for justification of the affair or slowly tears it down. The tearing down is often met with rejection, depression, anger, and bitterness. There is no easy way around it. <P>My Plan A is to the point where my wife and I talk daily (about almost everything but the affair). I give her compliments (very specific ones such as I noticed how she spent time with one of our kids doing something, or the way she fixed her hair on a certain day, something each day). I give her lots of non-sexual touch every day (hair rub, back rub, and foot rub). I send her little notes or an email a couple times a week. I plan nice dates for us. I give her a love letter each anniversary now as well as a loving letter on mother's day. I want her to know I love her and that I will never take her for granted again. This is the same woman who hated me about 16 months ago and told me I was nothing more than the father of her children. So don't give up.<P>Don't do a Plan A expecting something in return. Do Plan A because you love her and that you'll be there for her when this fantasy fog lifts. I'm not saying that you do Plan A forever if there isn't any progress. I'm saying don't expect too much too soon. Many men give up too soon. I could not live with knowing that I didn't do everything possible or held on a little bit longer to get through it. You can not have any regrets. If my marriage was to fail, it would not be because I didn't give it everything I had to hold it together. <P>Tom, I am to the point now that if my wife started up her affair again, I would leave. I love her, but I can not go through this again. I have grown tremendously through this. I'm a great husband now. I cherish my wife daily. If that isn't enough for her, then I would let her go. I will no longer share her with another man. <P>Well, let me get to your questions - are you still with me?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My reason for writing is I wanted to know if you've felt you needed to keep some of your sadness and/or depression reasonably<BR>well hidden from her or not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YES. As difficult as it is to do, you can not walk around with this long face as her punishment for what she did to you. Depression and sadness are not attractive attributes. Her seeing the pain and suffering she has committed against you will drive her away. You may be walking a little wounded but stand tall. Any man who has walked through the fire has a lot to be proud off. Give her a man to admire again and the attraction will slowly grow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you think it's an LB to reveal too much of your own unhappiness?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ABSOLUTELY. She doesn't need to be reminded of the sins she has committed. She has a huge about of guilt to deal with and you revealing your sorrows only adds to the pain. Don't be afraid to tell her you're unhappy about other areas in your life (kids, work, etc.). Failed communication is part of the reason we got into this mess. There will be time in the future to discuss this mess, but now is not the time. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm fairly open with her about good and bad days. There's times when I think my bad days may cause her enough pain as to make her want to leave.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Create more good days. Give her reasons to want to come home. Make nice dinners, keep the house picked up, eliminate some of the burdens around the house that get her depressed. Make your home a sanctuary for her. Give her space when you think she wants it (a lot of the issues she has to deal with she will resolve on her own). Look your best as often as you can. become attractive both physically and emotionally (like when you were dating). <P>The key is to be there for her if she wants to talk about something, but don't press it. Work to become her best friend again. You can't make her love you, you can only help her realize she still does. Please realize that if she has stopped the PA, that time is on your side if you stay together. Your marriage can't heal if you're apart. It's gut wrenching to get through this, but I will guarantee that you will become a great man if you stick it out. <P>I'm here if you need me Tom. <P>Best wishes, <P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited April 19, 2000).]

I'd like to second what SHA has said here because 1) it fits so well with my own experience and 2) it corresponds almost exactly with what I've been told in counseling sessions (with Jennifer @ MB).<P>I don't post much. In my early days of reading this forum and posting, I was hurting way too much to say much that was of interest to anyone besides myself. Now that I'm further down the road, I can look back at where I've been and realize what I did that worked, and what I did that stunk. I'd highly recommend to everyone that they try very hard to avoid the mistakes and do the stuff that works. I'd also like to suggest that anytime someone like K or SHA or Chris makes a comment, we'd all do well to consider carefully what they have to say. They've been through the fire. They have walked the walk and they know what works and what doesn't. I'm not far enough down the road to consider myself "in recovery", but I do have a good sense of what the MB principles can do for me and for my marriage.<P>Here's my opinion, based of course on my own situation.<P>What works:<BR>1) Low expectations. Jennifer suggested that I prepare a nice romantic candlelight dinner for my wife. In the next breath she told me to be prepared for the probability that she'll walk in, turn on the lights, and blow out the candles. My wife has told me herself that she wants me to have *no* expectations of her. For now, I'm ok with that. I expect no affection, no attention to my needs, no respect for my feelings, no interest in my activities. I don't want to live like that forever, but I understand my own particular set of circumstances and I believe that I can accept this situation as a step toward something that I hope is better. It's working for me. I can now tell my wife that I love her, hear her say "Thanks", and smile as though it doesn't hurt me. It doesn't bother me anymore because it's what I expect. Your mileage may vary.<P>2) No questions. I learned early on that I was just going to have to get by with knowing what I know now. Any attempts by me to ask questions about anything would be hurtful to her, so I can't. Again, I'm ok with that - for now. I don't ask about her plans for the day, about her schedule, about who she will see, what she will do, where she will be UNLESS she brings it up as a topic for conversation. Even then, I'm extremely careful about asking questions unless they can clearly be considered to be part of a light conversation.<P>3) No bad moods. This is probably the second-most difficult thing on my list. I used to think that I ought to be able to express my feelings about the things she does and get some support. WRONG. She doesn't want to know that she's hurt me. When we remind them that they have done us so much damage, they conclude that the damage is too great and we'll never get over it. My "bad days" affect my wife in terrible ways so I try with everything I've got to avoid having them. If I do find myself in a funk, I try to avoid letting her know I'm down. It's not easy and it's not always possible, but I try.<P>Jennifer told me that I had to be an "attractive alternative". If I'm in a bad mood, I'm the furthest thing possible from being attractive. I'm doing a lot to make changes in myself in this area. I like the change, which makes it easier to make being in a good mood a habit. My wife has also noticed and responded in small ways. It's working.<P>4 ) No other love busters. I have a problem with making my wife feel like she somehow doesn't measure up to my expectations. My impression is that she is too sensitive and jumps to conclusions. It doesn't matter what my imprssions are, what matters is that when I say certain words or act in a particular way, she feels as though I disapprove of her. I've learned (perhaps too slowly) that in order for my relationship to work, I must consider her feelings and opinions to be just as valid and important as mine are. It seems so self-evident as I type it here, but I only recently realized what I was doing, and how my actions and words affected her. I acted as though I was the only person in the relationship that mattered. I was just plain selfish. I'm changing.<P>What doesn't work:<BR>All the stuff that we all know won't work, like pleading, angry outbursts, and other love busters. All those things that remind her that she's made a mistake, along with all those things that in her mind justify going outside the marriage to have her emotional needs met. She'll never get over it if you (we) aren't a safe person to be around.<P>Jennifer also told me that if a person is in a relationship where they are beaten by their spouse once a week, and their situation improves to the point where they are only being beaten once a month, they still won't feel very good about their circumstances. It's an extreme example, but it demonstrates that what they consider to be love busters needs to disappear, not just become less frequent. That example has really opened my eyes and motivated me to eliminate behaviors that are LBs. When I start down a path of interaction that I know has resulted in LBs in the past, I remind myself that she is going to feel as though I beat her and I stop.<P>I've been struggling with my wife for nearly three years, through three different OM (four, depending on your definition of EA). Only recently have I been in a position to seek counseling, and I'd highly recommend that you consider it as well. I'm already battle-weary, yet I'm looking at roughly a 2 year process for recovery. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't consider throwing in the towel, but my outlook has improved considerably since beginning counseling. I can do this, but I sincerely doubt I'd be able to do it without coaching. <P>My plan A wasn't really effective at first because I didn't really understand. In my view, plan A is about me and my outlook. It's about the changes I need to make in myself in order for my wife to consider me an "attractive alternative". It focuses me on the things I have control over, and encourages me to stop worrying about the things I don't have any control over. It's for me to learn my wife's emotional needs and how to meet them. I've learned (still learning, actually) to almost completely separate myself from her and her actions. It's the hardest thing I've had to do, but if it works it'll pay off with the greatest reward I'll ever earn.<P>Sorry this is so long, but I'll finish off this novel by saying that this stuff works. There is a lot of work to be done, but I've seen enough improvement in my own situation already to have some faith in the MB methods and principles.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by o2bsane (edited April 19, 2000).]

I just want to thank both of you for providing me with much greater insight into the inner workings of Plan A and how you've been able to implement it to the best of anyone's abilities. <P>Both of you are exhibiting such patience and it humbles me to feel that the amount of time I've spent so far in Plan A is too much. Thank you for each of your "novels".<P>While much of my efforts to determine and meet my wife's EN's have been successful, I can see now that LB's produced by my outward sadness have probably just about balanced the love units I have been able to create. I've got to work harder on that.<P>I will continue to re-read your advice and try to learn from and apply as much of your wisdom as I can. I've avoided Harley counseling because I felt sure that the first thing they would insist on is "No Contact". Perfect advice in an ideal situation, but obviously, not all spouses (mine included) can or will comply. I will, however, try to reconsider the possibility of counseling at some point.<P>Thank you again for your time.<P> <P>

Hi Tom,<P>What good advice and encouragement from SHA and o2bsane!I am printing their reply now.<P>I am sad,depressed, and anxious most of the time.I will read their responses for support.Bethn

Thanks Tom, SHA and O2b for this great thread. I am struggling with patience in the face of no response from my H and ongoing EA too. There seems to be conflicting info about plan A vs confrontation. I was just hearing about the Oprah show where that Dr Phil guy had cheating spouses on and said that H would respect W more if she stood up for herself and didn't allow affair to continue. Did anyone see that show? Maybe I am looking for absolutes when there are none. I think your posts were very helpful<BR>Lora

<BR>I wanted to respond to a couple of things that have come up here.<P>Tom,<P>I understand what you mean when you say you felt that Harley/MB counseling would insist on "No Contact". I wouldn't presume to speak for them, but if I were to guess, I'd think they would counsel *your wife* to break off contact as a prerequisite to healing your marriage. On the other hand, they would most likely counsel *you* based on your situation, and as I believe you have said, the reality of your situation is that contact is ongoing. In my case, contact is suspected. That doesn't prevent my counseling from effectively helping me implement my Plan A. It affects my wife and her ability to rejoin me in a healthy marriage. It goes back to what I said about spending my energy working on things I have control over.<P>Lora, you mentioned the difficulty of tolerating an ongoing EA and doing Plan A while it is still going on, vs. confrontation and "sticking up for yourself". Here's how my situation came to be.<P>My wife started an EA and denied, denied, denied. They were just friends, she wasn't doing anything wrong, all the things we've all heard before, all those tired lines from the Betrayer's Handbook. I drove myself crazy wanting to know what exactly was going on and worked myself into a frenzy trying to show her how dangerous what she was doing could be. I snooped every chance I got, and every time I discovered some snippet of information and confronted her with it, she learned how to avoid tipping her hand the next time. I basically taught her how to avoid being caught. I burned all those bridges behind me, unfortunately, and now there's absolutely no way I will ever know for sure whether she's telling me the truth when she says she has had no contact.<P>It would have been much better in my situation for me to have either 1) not snooped at all and implemented a perfect Plan A, or 2) snooped, but used the information I found to gauge my Plan A progress, rather than confronting her with it. <P>It sounds like I'm saying "don't confront", but I know that's not always possible. I once confronted my wife after discovering her in one of the OM's arms and I'm glad I did, at least at that particular time. I think that I showed great restraint by not killing him. At that particular time, we had a great recovery going and I blew it with a huge LB...but that was before I discovered this site. Now I'm back on track and I even got her to say "Love You Too" last night in response to my "Love You"! Of course she was mostly asleep at the time, but she can't take it back!<P>Best of luck to us all.<P>Slightly Sane<BR>

Tom, <P>I'm glad to hear you are meeting at least some of your wife's emotional needs. As time passes, she'll see your devotion and your willingness to change as a tremendous act of love. <P>Keep in mind that good days are contagious. By simply creating joyful experiences she will accept your efforts more and more and desire to spend more time with you. <P>Keep trying to improve your Plan A too. Don't think that what you are doing now is all you need to do. Keep improving. I found the letters BEST to be my daily reminder to keep me focused.<P><B>B=Bless</B>: Tell your wife you appreciate her and what she does. Thank her for the things she does for you. Notice the smallest things she does that you appreciate. Don't go overboard, but a simple "Thank you" with a smile gos a long way.<P><B>E=Edify</B> : Build up her self-esteem. Tell her you like the way she fixes her hair or you like the way she takes care of her self, or her necklace goes well with her earrings. Again, don't go overboard but do notice her more and tell her the things you like; something each day. Maybe a little note, a simple email, something. What happen to us is that w became complacent in our marriage and we stopped noticing and verbalizing our appreciation. If your enjoyable to be around, she'll be there.<P><B>S=Share</B>: Get to know your wife again. Women love to share their thoughts, experiences, and feelings verbally. Get to know your wife again. I had to start from scratch. I honestly didn't know her anymore. This was very difficult at first becasue she detached herself from me and was unwilling to talk to me. Initially, I felt like I was interviewing someone for a job they diudn't want. But, I kept at it. And make sure you participate in the conversation and not just listen. Afterall, your wife needs to get to know you again too. Tell her funny stories form work, talk about your future, become a great conversationalist. She will love that.<P><B>T=Touch</B>: This is perhaps the most difficult need to implement. However, it is critical that you get there at some time. An intimate relationship requires touch and I mean non-sexual touch. When the opprotunity arises, ask to rub her hair for her or give her a foot rub. If my wife an I are on the couch watching a movie, I'll rub her hair. She'll tell you no if she isn't interested. But, as you slowly become friends again, and she feels safe with you, she'll be more willing to allow you to touch her. I now give my wife lots of non-sexual touch everyday now. She loves it and I love giving it to her. <P>Tom you'll get there. Eliminating the LB's are critical. I know it's hard. I know you still grieve for what you two once had together - I still hurt too. <P>Please remember, she hasn't left. As long as you two stay together, time is on your side. <P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

To SHA and o2bsane - <P>Thanks for helping me re-evaluate the purpose of a good plan A. It's easy to come to expect a certain response from your spouse for all of your efforts, but you're right in that it also has to be a time to try and focus on yourself too.<P>I had strongly been considering a Plan B. Both of your responses have made me reconsider. I realize I probably haven't been doing quite as good a Plan A as I thought. This is difficult as long as she still sees the OM.<P>Wednesday, I also offered her the non-Harley option of accepting her EA for the time being if she would agree to assure me that she would end any PA still occurring. I told her I could live with that while she's trying to decide what she wants to do. She already told me a while ago that PA had ended in January. Maybe, maybe not. If she agrees, it will ease my anxiety allowing me to focus better on Plan A. I know the success rate of the PA not restarting is low, but it may be happening anyway. More open-ness may also help minimize allure of secrecy. She seemed interested but hasn't responded yet. I told her to take a couple of days and think about it. May not be the best path but I hope maybe it will get her to consider what she really wants from her other relationship.

Sir <P>I'm so happy to see you here, that I jumped the gun and answered even before reading the whole post ( vey much like me as usual )<P>How are you doing?<P>I'll be back after reading the whole thing, for now just wanted to say HI.<P>Hugs<BR>Kat

Tom,<P>SHA and o2bsane are giving you great advice here. I haven't followed your plight so I don't know where you are in Plan A/B.<P>I think a simple way to explain Plan A is to act as you did when you were first courting or had first met your your w. She may have been seeing somone else or just ended a relationship.<P>Did you demand that she that she stop seeing/thinking about the other person ? No, you set out to prove that you were the better man. This is what you must do again.<P>No amount of demanding or threatening will make her want to come back any more that it would have made her want to go out with you the first time.<P>You now have the advantage of knowing her likes/dislikes/needs and you know how your strengths/ weaknesses can play into these areas. Use them to your fullest advantage now and for the rest of your marriage<P>Best of luck and God's Blessings!<P>Bob