I posted this on the Plan a/b board, but thought I would also post it over here to get more input. Sorry if you have read it twice.<P>My first post here. I will try to give the Readers Digest version of the situation.<BR>14 year relationship. 9 year marriage. We have two children, 6 and 1.<P>Now it gets complicated. 3 years ago, my wife met a woman. Was emotionally and sexually attracted. Wanted to pursue the relationship, but was afraid. At the time (isn't 20-20 hindsight grand?), I knew that there was something missing emotionally in our relationship. So we started a relationship with this woman. Since that time (Nov 97) we have lived together as husband and wife and wife. Wife #2 has been primary caretaker of two children.<P>Fat forward to Nov 99. Wife meets man. Wants to have relationship with him. The other two in the relationship disagree, but she decides to do it anyway. Relationship quickly escalates to physical and emotional. Wife tells me early Dec. that she does not want to be married anymore. Uses the usual "it not about you, its about me" and all the other cliches that we are all famililar with. Spends all of her time with new BF, often gone for 10 or more hours on her days off. I file for divorce in mid Feb.<P>She finds a lawyer and responds. I tell her that I want custody of the children. Go to temp hearing and I get custody. She moves in with BF. I stay in student apt with wife #2 (or GF, if you prefer) and two kids.<P>Now it is a month later. She misses the children terribly. I mentioned to her yesterday that I would like her to start thinking about moving back home. Wife #2 is not so sure that this is the right thing to do. I don't really either.<P>So where do y'all think I should go from here. Welcome wife #1 back with open arms? Welcome her back, with very strict rules? Ask wife #2 to step back and wait to see what happens with wife #1?<P>Counseling for all of us is a given. I am going, wife #2 is going, and 6 yo son is going. We will need much more before this is all over.<P>Wife #1's sister is getting married next month. Should I offer to escort her to the wedding? I think that it might be a good time to underline the importance of family. What do you think about that?<P>Any insight into the situation would be appreciated.<P>Oh what tangled webs we weave, huh?<P>Thanks in advance<P>

Well,<BR>I am certainly not lost....but I am certainly confused. Why do you have another person involved in your marriage? You mention something about attending a wedding with wife #1 to underline the importance of family.....excuse me? I am not trying to offend you but....do you exactly understand what a family is? How confused your 6 year old must be....<P>First of all there are toooooo many people involved here.....get it back to the basics. One wife....One Husband...children and NO ONE else.<P>I am so sorry but I am some what "offended" by this fiasco that you and your wife have created for not only yourselves, but your children.<P>Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut....but I just can't.

Well, your input is appreciated. My son is much omre confused by mommy not wanting to be a family than he is by our unconventional lifestyle. Other than the fact that there were three of us, we had a family much like anyone else. I understand that many of you on this board will not agree, and you have a right to your opinion.<P>Our son thinks he is special. He considers the three of us as his parents. He has told me that "Only I have a (wife #2 name). Other kids don't have this."<P>Certainly I want to escort wife #1 to her sister's wedding. The important thing in family (IMHO) is commitment, not the makeup. All of our immediate families are aware of the situation. Some think it is none of their business, some approve, and some disapprove. BTW, wife #2 will not be attending. Extended family does not know. I would not care if they did, but causes less questions that way.<P>So your opinion is that wife #2 should bow out gracefully and allow me and wife #1 to try to get back together. Let me ask you: Would it be more of a tragedy for the children to lose 2 of the three most important people in their life, or just one?

I can't answer your question because I have never been in that situation, nor have I ever known anyone in that position. I would believe that your son knows who his mom is. He probably considers wife #2 as a very important person in his life....but not his parent.....his mom.<P>Yes I do believe that wife #2 should bow out. I do not consider myself a prude....but I just can't understand. I am glad that you were not offended by my answer....as it was not meant in that way. I just believe in a 2 parent family....not a 3. And I also believe at 6 years old, he is not old enough to understand.<P>

grandpabri,<BR> WOW!! Can you believe this!! Hey pal, why don't find a board more suited to your twisted idea of family? This board is meant for "conventional MARRIAGES" based on christian values, not orgies. <P><BR>For better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, <BR>!!!!!!!FORESAKING ALL OTHERS!!!!!!!!<BR>(This is the rub for you buddy) TILL DEATH DO US PART. I assume you DID say this????? <P><BR> What did you expect? She couldn't be faithful to you without.. what was it? Door #1 door #2 or......<BR> Your son feels "special"?????? Don't be surprised if your POOR POOR son brings a BOYFRIEND home or.... GOD why am I wasting my time?????? SH** YOU FIGURE IT OUT!!!

You have certainly created a mess....or should I say allowed your marriage to become a mess....<P>I have enough trouble being the husband of one wife....I can't imagine two....and can't even an OM in the picture....<P>I'm going to step back....you've allowed your marriage to become open when you and your W brought the OW into your home....now you're dealing with 4 seperate relationships....<P>1. you and your W<BR>2. you and your GF<BR>3. your W and GF<BR>4. your W and OM<P>Wow....this is confusing....and not to mention how this will affect your children...I do agree with the others, marriage in this culture is one man, one woman and the children....<P>You have to decide what you're going to do....I would suggest fix it with your W....you both need to learn how to exclusively meet each others needs....<P>I've read the info on this web site several times and some of Dr. Harley's books....no where do I see adding a third party to a marriage as a solution to meeting needs....<P>You stated that something was missing....that something was an un-met need for your W and possibly you....<P>I just don't see how adding 2 relationships 3 years ago to your marriage solved anything....<P>Before I'd worry about escorting your W to you SIL's wedding....you need to decide what you're going to do....<P>1. Repair your marriage and ask the GF to leave....focusing exclusively on your W and what she needs from a marriage.<P>2. Divorce your W....marry the GF and try to establish a marriage where you and the GF try to exclusively meet each others needs.<P>3. Or accept the fact that you're in an open marriage that includes other women for you and your W....and other men for her....<P>I am curious....is the GF exclusive for you and your W....or does she have flings of her own....<P>I'm a very non-judgemental person....I have friends who are straight, gay and bi..... but, you have certainly created a mess.....<P>I don't think you'll find a lot of advice here unless you really commit yourself to the concept of one husband and one wife to make a marriage....<P>I wish you only the best....I hope you can resolve this....Like I've posted before....All I've offered you is my opinion....take it or leave it....I do not wish to offend you....your the one who asked for advice....<P>Nowhereman

Your situation is not very common, I'll say that.<P>It looks like your W (YOUR ONLY W) has brought infidelity into your marriage for a second time. Her actions with the male OP are common but this bothers you because the OP is male?<P>You allowed this to happen because her first OP was female?<P>You can learn, by reading here, how to handle an infidel.....it applies to all of them.<P>I will try not to judge your lifestyle and you do have an infidelity issue but it's just so ...weird.<P>I don't think your son will be homosexual due to your lifestyle but it's got to get confusing as he gets older and deals with the world as most of us know it. That doesn't make us better or more right ....... his life may just be harder. And that is so you and your wife can have sexual pleasures? <P>If you had no children the word obscene would not be in my thoughts. But since you do, I think you should rid your marriage of all OPs. Hopefully, you will all recover !!<P>PS-There are some non-christians here, some of us, gasp, are jewish.<BR>

Thank you for your helpful answer, Please Help. The rest of your post is full of hate, as I imagine you are. I am sorry for you.<P>Mental: Our situation is much more common than you would imagine. I don't know what will happen. Our son knows who is mom and dad are, but he has more than that. I don't expect any of you to understand, but if you were to see us on the street, you would have no idea that we have this lifestyle.<P>nowhereman: We did not have an open marriage. What happened was a decision by three adults to share our lives together. We have been, for the three years, faithful within the relationship, until now. It may be that I will have to choose between the two. That is not my preferred solution. Maybe a case of having my cake and eating it, too. But you are probably right. I will end up with one of them, not both. Right now, if I had to choose one, it would be (as please help so eloquently put it) door #2. She is the one who, when things got bad, stayed to take care of her family.<P>Inshock: It has nothing to do with the OP being male or female. The issue is commitment to the family. We (all three) committed to being a family and sharing our lives together. Wife #1 went outside the family and decided that our family was not what she wanted. She was willing to give up everything, even her children, to be with this other man. BTW, she is still having relationships with other men besides this one. While the family now conforms to the judeo-christian model of family.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by grandpabri (edited April 19, 2000).]

FIRST to: InShock,<BR> I'm sorry if I offended you and others of faiths other than Christian. I just meant of more GOD-LIKE values. I respect ANYONE who puts their faith in a "higher power" other than themselves. It's evident that one is certainly here (unless someone can make a tree or a child from scratch ) Again, I'm sorry to have sounded so closed minded. <BR> <BR>grandpabri:<BR> I do not have hate. I had a bad day granted, so I came off a little harsh. Anger and hate are two different things. Your situation angers me because you and your tribe (for a lack of a better word) are very selfish to the needs of your children.<BR> Children learn mostly by example, what example are you 3 setting down for them? That when the marriage gets tough, just add another component? And when you're bored with that, leave and find another lover?<P> I seems that your "family is driven MUCH more by sexual desires than love. Marriage and families by their very definition don't even REMOTELY resemble your situation. <BR> You have ONE WIFE not TWO. Is that too hard a concept for you? Try looking up Wife in the dictionary.<BR> SO, teach your child what you want, it's your child. But PLEASE don't think you are teaching him ANYTHING about FAMILY, LOYALTY or LOVE because you are not even close. <BR> Please don't feel sorry for me, feel sorry for your little boy. The world is a VERY confusing place for him. And your one year old can still be saved from this.. I don't even know what to call it???<BR> BTW, are BOTH the children from your W? I hope so for your sake and their's PRAYERS FOR THE CHILDREN

PH: How do you know what my family is driven by? You read and hear what you like. Just because my situation does not conform to your narrow view of the world, I am wrong?<P>FYI, throughout history families looked much more like my situation than yours. Multiple marriages were allowed and even encouraged in biblical times.<P>BTW, my dictionary defines wife as a married woman. Period. What was your point?<P>Don't profess to know what I teach my children. I certainly do not teach them to hate others, such as gay people, as your first post implies.<P>My son is only confused about one thing, why his mommy does not want to be a family anymore. He is not confused about the two adults who decided to stay and cherish him. Isn't that the real meaning of FAMILY, LOYALTY, AND LOVE? <BR>

grandpabri:<BR> How do I know what your "family" is driven by? Your words:<P>"my wife met a woman. Was emotionally and sexually attracted". <BR>"Relationship quickly escalates to physical and emotional"<BR> <BR><<Never a mention of the "Love" and "Family" , same interests, religion or read the same books. <BR> Driven by the body not the soul.>> <P>"FYI, throughout history families looked much more like my situation than yours. Multiple marriages were allowed and even encouraged in biblical times."<BR> <BR><<< Yes and people rode donkeys and never bathed. Then came civilization...... >>>><P>"BTW, my dictionary defines wife as a married woman. Period. What was your point?"<P><<<OK MY MISTAKE, LOOK UP MARRIAGE can you say monogamy??>>>><P><BR>"Don't profess to know what I teach my children. I certainly do not teach them to hate others, such as gay people, as your first post implies."<P><<<< Nice smoke screen. AS I SAID THEY LEARN BY EXAMPLE. I don't hate gay people, but that doesn't mean I have to except UNNATURAL behavior when CHILDREN's minds and hearts are at stake. BEING GAY IS UNNATURAL BECAUSE IF GOD (Oh, you probably don't know this word either, look it up please and come back) intended for a MAN to be "In love" with a MAN or a Woman with a Woman these couples would be able to pro-create. This, is the corner stone of your "family" as you said we lived a Husband and "Wife" and "Wife" Oh, did you look up wife yet? Maybe spouse? >>>>>><BR> <BR> "My son is only confused about one thing, why his mommy does not want to be a family anymore. He is not confused about the two adults who decided to stay and cherish him. Isn't that the real meaning of FAMILY, LOYALTY, AND LOVE?<P><<<<< Your son is only confused by that aspect of it NOW, because of his age. It will become QUITE clear to him what happened and then the lesson will sink in. Kind of like hearing a song from you're teens and saying "OH, is THAT what that song meant" This WILL happen as your son becomes old enough to understand.>>>>> <P><<<<< Don't kid yourself, what you call a "Family" is "Unnatural", "Immoral" and even "Illegal" in most states. This is the Meaning of "Family" you are teaching your children. Twisted at best. And your biggest concern is "Should I take my Wife #1 to a wedding????" How ironic that is LOL!!! >>>><P><<<< Hey, you can stand there had hear the words "Forsaking all others...." and what? Hold hands and WINK????? REALLY REALLY so sad for your children. Maybe the courts will take them away from BOTH of you, or at least force you to create a more NATURAL environment in order to retain custody of them. I pray for them and you all. >>>>><P><BR> <P> <P>

grandpabi,<P>I must go back to the priciples this web site teaches....your personal situation is not an example of what Dr. Harley is using as a family....<P>O.K. for the point of discussion, Ill concede the open marriage comment....but, you do not have a marriage based upon the Marriage Builders principals.....the principles taught here are based upon one husband meeting the basic needs of his one wife and one wife meeting the basic needs of her one husband....it's a big stretch to expect most of folks here to really understand....<P>I'm a history teacher by trade.....so, I know cultural practices....we live in a culture that views marriage of one man and one woman....<P>In most cultures that practiced having more than one spouse it was for economic reasons and to have larger families....and I suppose that it was developed so men could have their cake and to eat it too....multiple sexual partners....search of hedonism....<P>I still go back to the idea of marriage....a marriage between partners is one relationship. Your "marriage" is three seperate relationships.....H to W; H to GF and W to GF....I don't see this taught here....by adding the GF you and your W did nothing more than avoid the issues keeping your marriage from growing....<P>I know the agrument of adults making decisions....but, you did post the your W's attraction of emotional and sexual....all of us deal with sexual attraction to people outside of our marriage....having feelings are just that....it's the actions that cause the problems....but, bottom line....you and your W were falling short in meeting needs and instead of meeting the needs....you and her created more confusion by adding the GF.<P>Like I posted last night....I wish you nothing but the very best....I've got to go to work....I'll look for a response later.

Ok, I passed on this one a couple of times, but now I'm here.<P>First of all, Frank, Honey, calm down. You make a lot of valid points (as usual), but you can sure tell what kind of day YOU'VE had!!! Love you!!! <P>And grandpabri, sometimes around here you have to read through the emotions to get at the real love and concern...we do tend to get emotional!! But we do care, no matter what your situation. Even when we don't fully understand it and can't relate as well as we'd like.<P>Now, on to the issue at hand. I understand that you are hurt by what is going on with your wife. And I do understand and truly believe that children can benefit from a loving family unit, no matter what people that unit is comprised of. Like most conventional people, my choice is a two-parent family, but my daughter is not being raised by her natural father and though she maintains a relationship w/ her father, she considers her step-father her real "parent". So not everything falls into what most of us consider normal. <P>But.....(you knew there had to be one, right? ) the situation of more than one "spouse" carries certain risks, I believe. There have been, and still are, a number of cultures that live similarly to this. Unfortunately, as some of my research indicated (I'm big on finding out all I can about EVERYTHING), this lifestyle rarely means complete fulfillment and happiness for every party involved. As human creatures, we are simply not very good at sharing - particularly our emotions. And, as I understand it, even in religions that sanction and expect multiple partners for the male (face it - that's mostly the way it goes), the multiple partners do not necessarily feel satisfied and complete, not in the sense that we strive to feel complete in a loving relationship (and yes, I do know a few people personally as well). It's expected and maintained out of a sense of religion and duty (not always, but many times). It's difficult to maintain a loyal and loving relationship with ONE partner, moreso, I would believe with more than one. It takes a great deal of work to understand and love and fill the needs when two people are working toward doing this with each other....more than two, it would seem, would not simplify this by making it less burdensome to do this, but simply make it more difficult. It may very well be possible, but it doesn't seem to be working here.<P>Emotional and physical attractions to others, whether same or opposite sex, tend to happen in any committed relationship. But, I would imagine (and I could definitely be wrong) that when your Wife felt these attractions for someone else, and rather than working toward figuring out what was missing b/n the two of you, it may have simply muddied the waters when you agreed to include that person in your committed relationship. Can I assume that when you married, this was not the original plan? That the two of you fully intended to have a more or less "traditional" marriage? If so, then perhaps introducing someone else into the equation simply blurred the lines and the definition of fidelity for your wife. You two were no longer being faithful to each other. No longer did it include just the two of you. Though you and the third person seem to be possibly content with the situation, perhaps your wife was not. And since this third person is not anxious to have her back, it is possible that it may not have been all it was cracked up to be for her either. Perhaps she needs to have a partner to herself as well. Remember, she had no problem accepting this when she was the third party and wanted in. After being in, she may have discovered the same thing...she would like an exclusive family unit. I certainly would never speak for her...but think about it.<P>From the events that have transpired, it would appear that her "interest" in the other person and the living arrangements was simply a passing thing.....much like the affairs we deal with here. Something b/n the two of you was missing and she found it somewhere else. We, as humans, tend to go through this during our lifetimes. But it does seem obvious that now, perhaps since the "fantasy" (you'll hear that word a lot around here) has worn off, she has discovered that this sort of arrangement is not what she is looking for in a committed relationship. Something, some very important need, is not being met for her (not a lot different than what happens here) and she is seeking fulfillment elsewhere. It certainly must be important. It takes a lot for a woman to lose the children that she so obviously loves.<P>Please understand that I am certainly not trying to be judgemental or condescending. Your lifestyle is simply your choice. However, it doesn't seem to be working - at least for one of the partners. She definitely needs something more. When our spouses here go astray, we attempt to determine what was missing that our spouses looked somewhere else. Not excusing their decisions or actions, but it wouldn't happen in a perfect union. I don't think your situation is a lot different. Except that we are working toward an exclusive relationship with one partner. You already have a partner, taking care of many of the aspects of the relationship that one does for most of us. It would seem that you fully intend to continue the lifestyle you've chosen and are perhaps unwilling to give up your girlfriend to concentrate on your relationship with your wife?(that sounded worse than I mean it, but it's pretty much the way it is - you know what I mean though, right?). But motivation IS a key issue and if you don't NEED her and her love, it would follow that you wouldn't be willing to put in the work that's necessary. That doesn't seem to be what your wife needs or wants. I say it would appear to be so because you are talking about setting "strict rules". Please don't be offended, but you have won custody of these children. In essence, you seem to say that she can live with her children as long as you can dictate the arrangements. That doesn't SEEM like striving for a wonderful, loving committed relationship for all parties involved, no matter how many are included. She is NOT an errant child. She is a woman who needs something. A woman who was not happy. She may take you up on it....but the cost to her will be considerable. I am sorry for that. Because that will affect those wonderful children as well.<P>Actually, I don't see why the methods we use here for OUR relationships won't work for you as well...if you are willing to work at them. Our Plan A calls for much soul-searching, a great deal of personal growth and acceptance of responsibility for the betrayed as well as the betrayer. Can you do this? Can you honestly and without blinders look at yourself and your situation on a continuous basis and determine "what went wrong"? Why is she not happy? And if you honestly find the answers there, change yourself to make your marriage the type of marriage it should be to make you AND your wife happy? This plan calls for a hard reassessment of our lives, sometimes tremendous changes in ourselves and our lifestyles, no matter what they are. Are you willing to do that? If not, then I don't see a great deal of hope for happiness for your marriage or your wife.<P>I certainly hope I have not offended you. Actually, the advice I've offered is no different that I would offer to any betrayed here (I'm betrayed as well, btw and we are recovering beautifully). We all have to take a good hard look at the way we live our lives, the way we've interacted with our spouses to rebuild a successful and happy marriage. And most of us have found that we need to make tremendous changes and tons of "personal growth" in order to do this. Because your situation involves "sharing", I simply wanted to point out that that may be the very first thing that has caused a few problems for her. And accepting her back, "my way or no way" is not what any of us would consider building a successful marriage...it never works for long.<P>Good luck to you. I know this is a very difficult time for all of you and your children.<P>Lori<BR>

OK, I'll weigh in.<P>Let's forget about the philosophical discussions of polyamory, shall we? <P>It doesn't sound to me as if you and your wife married with the idea that polyamory was something you were philosophically and emotionally in favor of. Look, I've known people who have done this with varying degrees of success. I happen to think it's a rationalization for not living up to one's commitment, but to each his own. <P>Polyamorists say that their lifestyle is more work than a conventional one. I disagree. Keeping the "magic" with a long-term spouse is also a great deal of work.<P>There seems to be some issue here of whether your wife is bisexual. If that's the case, and you both wanted to keep your marriage together, then perhaps bringing another bi female into the equation wasn't as crazy as it sounds. I know someone in a similar situation, and they were unable to do that, and the marriage will in all likelihood not survive.<P>HOWEVER, if it was just a question of:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now it gets complicated. 3 years ago, my wife met a woman. Was emotionally and sexually attracted. Wanted to pursue the relationship, but was afraid. At the time (isn't 20-20 hindsight grand?), I knew that there was something missing emotionally in our relationship. So we started a relationship with this woman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...then it looks as if instead of looking inward to your relationship, you BOTH looked outward for an answer to your problems...but with the same person.<P>Now, this looks like a pretty good deal for you...to outside eyes. You must be a pretty happening guy, to be living with two women. I'll bet the rest of the world has no idea that you are sharing your wife with your GF as well, that it's not just you taking turns on alternate nights. <P>Now...let's go back to polyamory for a minute. By setting up this situation, you've already decided that the one man-one woman model doesn't work for you; that you are polyamorists. So why then should adding yet another party to this stew be such a problem? If adding GF to your family wasn't "going outside the family", then why is wife seeing another man "going outside the family"? Why shouldn't this new man be part of the family too? The more the merrier, right? As Groucho Marx said to Margaret Dumont in ANIMAL CRACKERS in response to her remark "But that's bigamy!", "Yes, and it's big o'me too. Let's be big for a change!"<P>Or is it that by bringing another MAN into the equation, she's bringing in someone you can't have sex with because you are straight? And that throws off your advantageous sexual access situation. Because if another man joins your family, then you can have sex with wife and GF. Wife can have sex with you, GF, and OM. GF can have sex with wife, you, and OM. OM can have sex with wife and GF. So now you and OM are competing for the same two women...and the two women have access to THREE people. You have lost your power position.<P>Are you following this?<P>That your wife is now living in a monogamous relationship (she is, right?) with OM, sure tells me that she's not as nuts about this polyamory thing as you are. And also that even if she's bisexual, she's less than 50% bi, and only has problems when her emotional needs aren't being met by her man (that's YOU). And the fact that GF doesn't really want your wife to come home means SHE isn't nuts about it either.<P>So much for the enlightened rejectors of middle class morality.<P>Sorry, my friend...there may be successful polyamorists in the world. I'll take on faith that there are. But your situation isn't one of them.<P>Here's what I'd advise. Read this site...especially the stuff about emotional needs. Tell GF you can't do this any more. Help her find her own digs. Go to your wife. Tell her she's the one you really want, and you want to work WITH HER to restore your marriage. Take the emotional needs questionnaire together. Learn about each other again. Go to an exotic island for a romantic vacation. Jamaica is wonderful for such things.<P>I just have a feeling that when it's over, while you may be glad this "experiment" is something you experienced, you'll agree that it's not the life you want.<P>Good luck to you. I wish you the best.

Grandpabri:<BR>Your post really hit home on some ideas that my H has. He has had several discussions with me concerning bringing in another "sub-wife" to not only take care of his needs when I am too tired, but to take care of the children so he and I can go on mini vacations together. We have no family close by. Kind of like a live-in nanny with perks. His main justification is that if something were to happen to the two of us, the children would not have to be uprooted. They would continue with their life with less impact than if they had to change schools and move to a different state to be cared for by an aunt (my sister). Want more reasons why he feels that this is a better arrangement? It states in the Bible that polygamy is indeed legal and normal way of life. King Solomon had hundreds of wives, as well as other profits. I can't remember the verse, but in one instance God granted a person many wives for his loyalty and love.<P>I do not condemn your lifestyle. I even kind of understand it - just don't agree with it. Actually what wife #1 has done now completely agrees with what I think the future will hold for me if my H talks me into this kind of situation. My H will continue to try to find something exciting sexually (ie: continue to look for other sex partners), as your W now has done.<P>This is just my opinion - your W has a sexual addiction. How old is she? Alcohol involved? Is she depressed? Feeling dead inside and wants to find excitement in the little time left she has in this world?<P>Even though you have had this lifestyle for 3 years and it seemed to be working, your children will be growing up with ideas that don't fit in with the rest of society. How is the 6 year olds teachers at school taking this? Does the school know? I have a 6 yr. old also, and she blabs everything! I can just imagine what she would say. Has your son found you in bed with wife #2? Does he question what's going on? <P>Sorry I'm so nosy - I'm just curious as to how your family situation works with your outside surroundings.<P>In any case, counseling would be a good starting place. Getting to the root of your W's addiction would certainly help. Obviously some of her needs are not being met. But her needs must not go against your principles - there has to be a common ground for the two of you.<P>Okay, just my two cents worth. Please keep posting as I would like to see how you progress.<p>[This message has been edited by toots_007 (edited April 19, 2000).]

Thanks toots_007 for the questions about the children. That's my concern. If there were just the 3 (4?) of them it would be less anoying to me. I worry about them. <BR> Hey grandpabri, where are you?

Grandpabri,<P>I'm just as confused, and my response will be much shorter. I have a few questions though. <P>NO where in this post did you say anything about LOVING your wife, about being shocked that she was interested in another person, (male or female, it doesn't matter). About problems of the past that got you to this point. How can wife#2 be the caretaker of YOUR Children w/ Wife#1, this is very bizzare! <BR>I guess I can't understand, why you didn't put up a fight then, what were your feelings about the OW? Maybe you were hurt, and felt this was the best way to deal with it? Did your relationship flourish w/ #1 when #2 came into the picture? Did you still have your same problems? (Remember you never told us if there were any, except she met someone else)...<BR>I am sorry for your children, the world is cruel, and maybe they don't feel it now, but someday they will. They will question you and their MOM, the only MOM. What then?<P>I have to give this some more thought! I'll be back. In the meantime, Good Luck!<BR>Find happiness with YOUR wife, the ONE you fell in love with. NOT the person she brought into the relationship. Salvage that (if you DO love her). or end it once and for all.<BR>Pookie.

Okay, I'll try to fill in some of the blanks from some of your posts.<P>Please help: Until and unless you can be civil, please don't post on this subject anymore.<P>Nowhereman: Yes, I have a number of relationships going on here. The problem I have with wife #1 seeing the OP is that it was outside what we defined and agreed to as the family unit. This may answer some other questions, too. Had she brought this guy in and said that she wanted him to be part of the family, with equal rights as the rest of us, and we were all in agreement, the situation might have been different. But she did not. She did as many of your spouses have done. Behind the back, sneaking and lying.<P>We were not in an open marriage. We were not free to go out and f**k whomever we chose.<P>Lostva: I agree with much of your post. I should have seen that wife #1 was not getting what she needed from me. I should have worked harder. I can see that we did not spend a lot of time together. She was the primary breadwinner for the last couple of years while I have been doing graduate work (in a mental health profession, horrors!) She was working 50-60 hours per week, I was working and going to school 50-60 hours per week. Our schedules conflicted ofter. I can see now that I should have spent the time needed to make this work. Again, 20-20 hindsight is very easy, but where do we go from here?<P>I dont think it is obvious at all that she loves her children. I could go on and on about this one, but I won't.<P>I am the talker and checker in the family. Before I make any decision affecting others, I go to the people affected and check it out with them. What I always got from her was that it was OK. If it was not OK, all she had to do was say something. You are right, I fully intend to pursue a relationship with wife #2 because she is the one, that when the chips were down, stayed with her family. There was a time when I would have done anything to have wife #1 back, even giving up wife #2 or quitting school. But not now. I would like her to come back, but my life will go on regardless. I don't mean to sound bitter or spiteful, however I got what I wanted in the custody hearing, and that is the kids. I feel bad that she is not able to be a full time parent for them, but this was her choice. She drove the bus off the cliff. I tried to stop it, but she would not listen. I guess maybe part of my soul searching is do I want her back to help her foster a relationship with the children, or do I want her back for me? Good question to which I don't have an answer.<P>Dazed: I don’t know if I agree with other polys that it is more work. But I do feel that it is more commitment.<P>Wife #1 has been attracted to other women before, but never followed up on this until this relationship. And has not, to my knowledge, been with any other women. Now men…<P>Again, when we decided to enter into our poly relationship, we all sat down and discussed what we wanted. Came to agreement and followed same for 3 years. We defined and agreed what would constitute our family, and then one of the family members, without consent from the others, went outside that family for something that should have been gotten inside.<P>Wife #1 is not living in a monogamous relationship. She is also seeing a guy down in another town, when she can get down there. I don’t know if OP knows about this. Don’t really care either.<P>Toots: Having a sub-wife won’t work. This may sound funny from me, but I am good at dodging slings and arrows. How about your husband exercising a little self-control? Taking care of his needs when you are too tired?<P>I think you may have hit this on the head. She may have a sex addiction. There have been many extra-curricular partners, before, during and after me. She had a serious marijuana problem for many years. Has been diagnosed as clinically depressed since ’93. She was on Paxil for years before this last pregnancy, but had to go off. Went back on a few months after. I have seen a couple of studies that seem to indicate that Paxil will not work after having gone off and then back on. This may be a factor.<P>My six year old is not to the point that sex means anything to him. Not that we do anything sexual around him. The three of us have shared a bed for as long as he can remember, so it is no big deal to come in in the morning and see us there. As I said in previous posts, to see us on the street, you would never guess that we were poly. Several people through the years guessed, but we would not advertise. If someone asked, I would tell them.<P>Pookie: Most of our problems revolved around wife #1 depression. There have been other partners in the past (before the poly stage), drugs, spending, etc. She has been in counseling several times over the past years, but does not follow up. This is not meant to be a slam on her, but many people have told me they believe she lack the ability to be introspective. Hard to admit anything is wrong when you can’t take an honest look at yourself. I am not shocked by her behavior. What is different this time (and what shocks me) is that before she always had the commitment to be a family and try to make it work. That is gone now. Now does that sound self-serving or what? I am not saying that I do not have any problems or that my problems did not contribute to the break up. But this post is already very long and that is a long subject.<P>Hope this fills in some gaps.<P>Gramps

granpabri,<BR> I don't think my last post (second to last actually) was uncivil in anyway. I didn't even make any faces <BR> <BR> Is it because it had questions you aren't ready to answer? I mean, you can't make such an important decision based on just what you want to hear can you? Be honest with yourself if not others. I'd really like you to reply to it if you can. <BR> <BR> Just out of curiosity, did you tell the court about your "family" situation when going for custody or did you just tell them that your W abandoned the children?<BR> Was that civil enough?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did tell the court about our relationship. Didn't make a big deal of it, but it was the first item in my declaration. Putting the worst foot forward and all that. Simply said that we were in a non-traditional relationship.<P>Wife #1 also brought it up to try to get custody. Of course, she said that I was the only one "involved" with wife #2. Didn't seem to make any difference to the judge. This is California, after all. Maybe he is used to fruits and nuts.<P>I didn't get into this type of relationship without being prepared to answer the questions about it. Call me a relativist if you must, but my morality is not the same as yours. Get over it. I don't pass judgement on you, I would expect the same. You have said your piece, and I disagree. End of subject.<P>BTW, things seem to be looking up. Wife #1 was surprised and seemed to be pleased when she found the flower I left on her car. Maybe some progress is being made. I tend to be impatient, and want everything now. Something I need lots of work on.<P>Have a good night<P>Gramps