I am 28, my wife is 23. We started seeing each other 6 years ago, and after one year I proposed, but her family thought it would be a good idea for us to wait a year to see if thats what we wanted.. to see if we last. Well we did and got married 6-1-96. I would say our marriage was like any average, good days and bad days, but we were young and I felt that it would just get better.. we would mature with each other you know? We had a boy on 4-10-98 and I know we were both very happy... but at the same time a baby can put a strain on a marriage.. sex (intimacy) became less and less, I had resigned from my job so she went to work while I stayed with the boy. She did want to *get out of the house* but I am thinking that it put a strain on her.. making her feel as though she was doing it all. I will admit she suggested counseling, but truth to tell I did not see any problems other than the lack of intimacy.. I thought that she was the one that had troubled feelings because I wanted to be with her, but she didnt feel the same, so I suggested she see someone by herself but she did not go.. I guess she thought we both should or neither. This suggestion came up only when we would have some kind of bad argument.. so it was not offered every day.. more like once in several months. I felt that we could see and fix our own problems. After about a year or so she wanted to be the mom again and stay at home so I was more than happy to go back out and work.. I thought that is was better that way and I always tried within my means to grant her wishes. However, that is when the evil part of the internet reared its ugly head.. she started to spend a lot of time online and in chat rooms and on another message board.. while we registered at the same time (may 99) she has about 1100 more posts than I do. all this time spent on this board eventually led to many members setting up to meet. I never thought that it was a good idea, so I declined to go, but she went anyway, and she had fun... and I thought it was helping because I was trusting her and I felt she would love me back because I was giving her that trust. About this time I got a different job in where I worked nights (11-7) and her online time just kept increasing after that inital meeting... a second meeting was planned and executed but again i did not go for work purposes.. but that weekend I lost my job because I did not go in.. I knew something was wrong.. I knew I should have gone with.. its uncanny how me and my wife know each other so well and how we can *read* each other.. we have literally "known" each others gifts at Christmas/Birthdays, etc. Since she came home things got worse.. she would spend a near-addictive amount of time on the computer, every time she saw me she had something to complain about or blame me for.. also many times the words "divorce" and "moving out" crossed her lips. This had gone on for 2 weeks.. the meeting was around Feb 28, and I found evidence that she had an affair while she was out of town on that meeting. Folks.. what I am telling you now is something that most betrayed spouses never find out.. sure some may actually catch the other in the act, but I had to read about it. She had actually saved one private message log, and subsequently I believe all public chat logs since the affair.. I had to read what they said to each other.. feelings, sexual desires.. all of it. She admitted it and I blew up right there.. my world was coming to an end. At first I wanted her to leave, but 2 days later when she did leave on her own, I had mixed feelings.. I hated what she did, but I felt that my family was too important and asked her to stay be she moved out to her moms.. she separated us. For the first time ever she told me she did not love me anymore, and she still claims that it was not due to the affair, that she has felt that way for 2 years.. I know she does not mean that.. I have read some about the wayward spouse and how they are clouded by feelings.. even some posters here cannot believe how they acted and what they said after they were discovered having an affair. But thats not all.. after she left I was alone and hurt and started to read the rest of the chat logs.. she would constantly make sexual conversation with the other guy, and if my name came up she would literally insult me in front of everyone, referring to me as her "corpse". I knew she was coming over that night to drop off our son for me to visit, and the pain I was feeling was overwhelming.. I wanted her to feel something for me and I wanted the pain to go away so I started to take some pills.. hoping she would see what her actions have done and maybe she would be overcome by guilt and remorse and care for me again. I ended up taking about 12 tylenol, 12 alleve, and 8 sleeping pills which I did not have at the time.. I bought them after I called her to make sure she was on her way over. I made sure she saw me take some of the sleeping pills and before long I noticed my speech getting worse. I had asked her and her Aunt who came along to leave.. but I really wanted their help, I wanted her to care for me.. when the ambulance arrived and one of the men stood me up to move me, everything went dizzy and I got scared.. I will admit the thought of suicide briefly entered my mind before I took the pills, but I had never intended to actually commit suicide.. I just wanted her attention and I guess I thought I had to make it look like a true effort for it to work. But it did not work, because at that moment I knew I had made a bad choice no matter what the outcome. I got my stomach washed out and almost immediately felt better afterwards, I was not dizzy anymore, just tired. The next morning, all I wanted was to go home and see my son, thats all.. but the docs thought i was suicidal and wanted me to sign myself in their treatment facility, I declined because I knew what I had done and I knew why, and I knew I would not do that again, however they thought differently.. apparently it seems that anyone that takes a few pills is a liar. I really was insulted because I pride myself on telling the truth.. when I was 12 my father died and I swore to give up lying.. I admit I slipped up a few times in my teen years but I always came back later and confessed.. telling the truth the first time every time is the most rewarding thing, and I have kept that promise. The docs did not let my wife visit me, instead they coersed her into filing a court order for me to go into inpatient observation. I was handcuffed and had my legs tied by 3 officers mere minutes after they pulled the tube from my stomach and taken out my IV. I cannot express the outrage I had and how offended I was.. here these people thought they were helping me but in reality they were doing the absolute worst thing they could ever do. That evening, my wife and a few others visited me and I told her how wrong it was and how much I hated to be in there.. she said she did not feel comfortable with it either and retracted the order the next morning. Things seemed ok, but I still felt bad about being separated, and I thought there was no hope for us because she was making no effort on her part to save anything, so one day (March 28) I basically told her off... i felt that if we could not be together i could not talk to her and that I hated her for all the suffering she put me through with the affair and the court order.. I forgot to mention that they had planned on continuing the affair.. another meeting was planned for April 28-29 somewhere thereabouts. Also that day I did many good things.. I had just picked up my son that day and applied for a job, dirty dishes left in the sink in the hopes the wife might come back.. I washed them, also I called my sister up, who I havent talked to in 2 years, and no relationship with her for 14 years.. I am still calling her and I plan on seeing her in the month of June.. out of all of this that is one thing that I am thankful for.. getting on the road to reconciliation with my sister. The wife didnt like my attitude and wanted to take Bowen back that night, saying she would return him the next morning.. I just got him that day so I refused. Later on she messaged me through the computer and we talked for a bit.. I said that if she wanted me to see someone we should go together.. she felt I was being too emotional and needed therapy, but I know I never needed therapy, I can work things out on my own, but I knew that she could use the same (actually I thought she needed it more than me) so I said we should go together and she agreed. The next morning her and her mom showed up with at least 4 officers and again I was handcuffed, my son taken from my arms, and transported back to that hellhole of a clinic. She left me there for 5 days, would not get me out, ingnored many attempts at calling her, and when I asked her why she said because I would not give her our son back that night.. she also said she did it at the advice of her lawyer.. a lawyer who has never met me, and is not a doctor therefore is not even remotely qualified to make even the suggestion that I should be court ordered for treatment. The doctors would not listen to me, they would only read the lies and half-truths that the wife and her mom wrote about me on the order.. after 5 days I had a hearing in which they judged me mentally ill in the capacity that I could not make a judgement on my own to seek medical treatment. For what?? A problem that only existed as long as I was putting a pill in my mouth.. The wife would claim that she was trying to help me, I am sure the docs would claim the same thing, but the difference is I told all of them how wrong they were, how offended and insulted I was, how my rights were taken away, my sanity tested by everyone telling me I need treatment when I know I dont and never did, and how there is no *problem* to solve and that locking me up was the worst most detremaental thing they could possibly do and the best *medicine* for me was to let me go and be with my son and try to pcik up the pieces of my life. No one would listen to me, not even the court-appointed lawyer who tried 3 times to get me to take the courts *deal* of admitting I need help and willingly going to treatment for 30 days! The court-appointed lawyer never intended on defending me, so the judge went with the docs reccomendation and now I am court ordered to see a counseler or else they lock me back up.. now no one can force me to talk, even if they lock me back up, but I cant fight it unless I am out so I have to go even though it will hurt more than help.. I know some of you may think it could be a benefit but for me to accept this outrage would mean for me to accept that I do have a problem when in fact there is none. I have only been to one meeting so far and it seems to me they are trying to get me to actually create some problem for them to fix.. needless to say when I got out after 5 days I started to look for a lawyer during which time the wife refused to let me have our son over.. she filed for divorce after I was locked up, and then after I was released, she filed for temporary custody based upon the judgement. She is asking for sole custody and I would have to get supervised visitation. It took me 2 weeks before I got to see my son.. the lawyer I hired was able to get me 67 hours a week with him out of a possible 168. That gives her 101 hours a week. I have also found out that about a week after she moved out she bought a computer! She cannot let go of her addiction, and she has talked with this other guy, and as far as I know has been talking with him. Believe it or not folks, I want to save my marriage.. even after all the cruel things she has done, I feel my family is too important to give up on. The hard part is, I read that when a marriage suffers an affair, usually the couple wants to try to save it.. what do you do when one does not? She keeps professing that she does not want to be married to me, that she doesnt love me, and she has even went so far as to say things like, "i have been miserable for 2 years and I want out" or "I dont believe we were meant for each other, we never should have gotten married" Please people.. I know those things just are not true but she wont/cant/ see it.. at least not yet.. and she continues communication with this other guy even thought I have asked her to stop.. you would think that after 6 years and all that she has done these past 2 months, I would be granted that small amount of respect and she would stop it. I dont think she understands how much she is still hurting me just by doing that. She will say she does not want to save our marriage but if she would let him go and let the computer go, I think she might come around as to how important it really is, we have a 2 year old son to think about, but she is blind to it.. she thinks that it would be better for him to grow up in a broken family than to grow up in a loveless one.. but she wont even make a first step! How can I get her to try? How can I get her to stop communicating with the other guy and spend less time on the computer? It seems as though all she is trying to do is get out and end it quickly and take our son in the process.. but I know that if she would just listen for once.. start making any kind of effort, she would see that there is still a chance, a chance to have the best life possible.

First of all, Welcome to MB. You will find people here that are truly willing to listen and help. <P>I am a betrayer myself. I acted the very same way. I was very lonely for 3 years. I tried to get my H to listen. He never would.<BR>So I had an EA. I was very addicted. I am still in withdrawal as we speak. Her reaction is normal in this situation. <P>Im still thinking on this story. Just curious. Why didnt the both of you work? <P>You will need to start out in Plan A. That is what you need to do at this point. You need to keep in mind. This marriage wasnt destoyed over night. And it took both of you. Not just this affair. There is a reason for this affair. <P>Ill be praying for ya<BR>renee

Neobican -- While I must confess that my situation was not quite as blantant as yours, I too was put through much the same type of treatment.<P>My W left while I was at work one night. She took our 4 year old daughter and disappeared. The next morning (about the same time I got home from work and discovered them gone, she was filing a restraining order against me accusing me of threatening to kill her, our daughter and my W's friends. ***For the record, I never threatened my W or anyone else, and was completely surprised when I came home to find my W missing.*** I was made out to be a homicidal maniac. I was unable to obtain a lawyer . . . The "free" consultations I was able to get (literally dozens of them) all said the same thing. I was screwed. My W would get whatever she wanted, that I didn't stand a chance of winning in court, but that if I gave them $1500 to start they might be willing to at least get me visitation with my daughter.<P>I was not able to see my daughter the entire time. Three weeks later, I showed up in court without a lawyer. When I walked in, I saw my W sitting with her lawyer (which her family had hired). She never even looked at me. A few minutes later her lawyer walked up to me, and told me point blank that I had two choices . . . I could give in to my W's demands on every issue, or I would never see my W or daughter again. I was told that they were more than prepared to present evidence of all the threats I had supposedly made. I had no choice. I was granted four hours a week visitation with my daughter. I had to drive 75 miles each week in order to have my visitation.<P>I was accused tried and convicted, and there was absolutely nothing I could about it. Less than a month later my W was having sex with a co-worker, on company time, on company property. . .Because she wanted to "know what it was like." Shortly after this happened, I tried calling my W (at her suggestion) to set up my visitation for the following week. She hung up on me when I called, and called the police to have me arrested for violating the restraining order.<P> . . .I truly do understand what you have been through.<P>I would like to make one suggestion to you though. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>no one can force me to talk, even if they lock me back up, but I cant fight it unless I am out so I have to go even though it will hurt more than help<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Go to the counselor. Talk with them. Tell them exactly what has gone on. Tell them exactly why you did what you did. Don't lie, don't try to hide anything. Most counselors are capable of seeing the truth. Let them become an ally to you.<P>You have a custody battle, and possible a divorce hearing or two ahead of you. The impressions of this counselor can be very powerful. If you intentionally go out of your way to fight them . . . That power will go against you.<P>One final piece of advice. Break your post up into paragraphs, please. It can be very hard to follow when things run on and on and on, without a pause.<P>God Bless

First of all I am sorry that your wife has hurt you and that she is being difficult about visitation with your son. However, whether or not you wanted to commit suicide is irrelevant you took actions that would look to everyone else that you were trying. <P>I am 9 months pregnant and have an almost 5 yr old daughter. My H moved out FEb 7 to live with OW. Since I work a different shift than he does our daughter has had to go over the OW's house to stay with my H. When she comes home I have to hear about OW from my daughter which is heart wrenching for me. Just the fact that my H left me after we planned a baby together is hard enough. He has also said many hurtful and untrue things as well. However he goes to the opposite extreme that your wife does. He said he would NOT see the children and would leave them without a father in order to hurt me as if the affair was not enough. This info was so you know a little about my situation and that you aren't the only person suffering. Every situation is difficult and will have different solutions. They just depend on how we chose to handle them.<P>My suggestion is to see the counselor whether you think you need them or not. I have to agree with Empty Shell that it WILL help your situation. If only in the eyes of others seeing you cooperate. I also think you should read some of Dr. Harleys books I bought His needs Her needs and it has given me insight and encouragement with my life that I had never even thought about. <P>If you sincerly don't want your marriage to end Keep hoping and if you dont go to church maybe you should try to find one that you feel welcomed in. I have found such encouragement and strength since having started going to church again. Also do everything you can to prove that you are a capable parent because your son needs a father and the most stressful thing in a childs life is the seperation of its parents. The only one to top it is the LOSS of a parent.<P>Good Luck and God Bless

I forgot to mention that my H is talking about coming home this week. So don't give up there is always hope.

Welcome <B>Neobican</B>...<P>I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P>A while ago... the "main" forum was divided into 4 separate "sub" forums... and a new one added...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Just+found+out...&number=29&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Just found out...</A>...for those new the forum... pre/post "discovery" of an affair or possible affair.<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Plan+A/Plan+B&number=30&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Plan A/Plan B</A>...usually after "discovery of the affair"...for those with questions of "what to do now?"<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=In+recovery&number=31&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>In recovery</A>...when a commitment to work on marriage by both spouses has begun.<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=34&SUBMIT=Go" TARGET=_blank>Divorcing/Divorced</A>...when efforts at reconciliation fail or are failing.<BR>We are being asked to post the forums that make the most sense with respect to our questions/vents and not just dump everything into the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/marriage/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=General+Questions&number=28&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>General Questions</A> forum because it will give you the most responses! <P><B>About your post</B>... WOW...<BR>but you know something...<B>you are not alone</B>!!!<P>Do keep going to counseling...<BR>You are going to have to work on that custody battle... you may have to scheck out the <A HREF="http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/" TARGET=_blank>Fathers Rights To Custody(FRTC)</A> site... A word of warning... it is very anti-marriage... but to work at giving your son a chance with you... you may need to!<P>I don't know how good your attorney is... but...If you need to <B>protect</B> yourself legally (and/or financially)... I usually make the recommendation of finding a <B>good</B> attorney. A good place to start off is at the <A HREF="http://lawyers.martindale.com/marhub/form/by.html" TARGET=_blank>Martindale-Hubbell Lawyer Search</A> site. Do a search within your county... look for only "family law" specialists(>80% in divorce/custody/etc.)... make sure they do a lot of "family law committee work"... if they know the judges all the better... You can normally find a few that will give initial counseling free of charge.<BR><A HREF="http://www.uslaw.com" TARGET=_blank>USLaw.com</A> (an alternative search site)<P>You are going to have to try and start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Long distance <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>s are very hard... but have been know to be successful. She is not listening now...<BR>...and I hate to say it... she probably won't in the near future... Take that into account so you expectations of her "coming around" aren't too high!<P>Come and post more often... (yes... with smaller paragraphs) <P>I'm really praying hard for you... <P>Jim

I apologize for the length.. but I thought I should tell as much as possible without writing a whole book.<P>Inamess: Well, the reason we both didnt work was our baby, at the time he was 4-6 months old, and we both did not feel comfortable hvaing him in some kind of day-care at such a young age. All we did was switch roles.. I stayed home, she went to work, we had both agreed on that.<P>Empty Shell and Vett: Yes, I have had one session with the counselor so far, and I did talk with him, but I would have you know that he is expecting me to talk about my supposed suicidal tendencies when there are none. How do you talk about that? The answer is we didnt.. I told him the same story I have been saying ever since March 20th to the docs that first helped sign me in...what we did talk about was my marriage/separation, which happens to be the only real problem I have, unfortunately he is not a marriage counselor, and it doesnt work all that well when the other spouse is not there. I am taking steps to insure myself against further incriminating lies, I have and will continue to record my *sessions* because I fully intend to prove that this was all a huge mistake and yes, the doc and judge were wrong. I also plan on seeing another doctor for an actual evaluation, not the claimed evaluation that I was supposedly given by this other quack. 20 minutes (over the course of 5 days)of trying to get me to admit and go to counseling is not and evaluation. <P>I believe the docs were doing the normal "cover your [censored]" approach by forcing me to do so.. if they had let me go and I did hurt myself, I presume my survivors could sue, so they mentally torture me instead of running that risk, however because of that I just might sue them for violation of rights, improper treatment, and pain and suffering. I truly sympathize with you Empty Shell.. we know in some way how that innocent man feels when convicted of murder. Its one thing to take my wife, take my love, but you cannot take my mind, my feelings, my thoughts, my sanity. That is something I will not allow anyone else to judge for me. I plan on seeing another doctor (which I had the right to do but was never informed) who has no vested interest in me (as far as being sued) to prove just how capable I really am. Apparently to some docs, self-realization is downright impossible. Thats why its so hard for me to talk to these people.. there is no other story, there is no other way to say it.. if they dont believe me now, they never will.. I have no idea what it is I could possibly say or do to convince them otherwise. <P>And yes, inspite of all that, I love my wife and would like to try to save our marriage, even though at this moment she will profess that she does not love me and does not want to be married to me, after reading more of *survivng an affair* I truly believe she does not quite have a hold on her true feelings.. if she continues with a divorce I think she will regret it.. at the very least she will regret not trying. All i want is for her to just try.. we can always get a divorce later if it really does not work, but the hard part is waiting for her to accept the idea that our marriage can be saved.. that it could be better than before.. I just need for her to give me the opportunity.<P>

Thanks to NSR for the guide to the message board.. I didnt quite know where to put the post! I will remember from now on, and keep updates coming.. thanks for the links, I only wish I had found this site and all the wonderful support that flows from it before I made that horrible act of taking those pills.. I have since not taken any pills/drugs/medication of any kind and have not had one drop of alcohol.. even the memory of that night just makes me queasy.

Neobican:<P>I am so sad to read your story. I don't know what to suggest as far as your legal predicament goes. I think Empty Shell does have a good idea in talking to the counselor that was mandated and reiterating your circumstances. Perhaps when the counselor wants to discuss those alleged suicidal tendancies you could ask, "Do you know the circumstances around the only time in my life I told pills in excess of the recommended dosage?" Then tell him or her what you told us. I don't know, but it might help.<P>It is possible that your marriage will make it through this horrible period, but one thing is sure: you will never be able to change your wife. You can only change you. <P>This site has a lot of very good information for you to bring everything you can into your marriage. This information can help you decide what action you want to take. Read all about Plan A (Jim [NSR] already showed you the way) and read about what the Wayward Spouse (WS) is feeling and thinking. It can be a powerful fantasy and a tough addiction to overcome.<P>Unfortunately, like any addiction, it is only the addict who can break the spell. Just as you can't change an alcoholic from without, you can't change the mind of a WS for them. You can only remind her what a wonderful, fun, and responsible man she fell in love with six years ago--and remind her that you're still here.<P>Good luck, Neobican. --HBC

Hi Neobican -<P>Nice to meet you and welcome to MB!!<P>I am so sorry for all that you and your family are going through - take a few deep breaths and relax a little in knowing that we are all here to help you and we all understand what you are feeling.<P>Geez, and I thought my life was a bad soap opera.....At least I didn't have to experience the legal nightmare until all the divorce nonsense began!! Here's a BIG HUG.....I think you need it!!<P>You've gotten some great feedback so far....it helps - doesn't it? - to know that others (Hi ES!!) have gone through a similar legal hell. Then to know that you are not alone and that there are quite a few things that you can have some control over and begin to learn and implement for yourself and your marriage - well, I know what a relief that can feel like....just to have support and some sort of plan on how to get through this!! At least the affair part!!<P>The first step is basically what everyone has said - READ, LEARN, understand what infidelity is caused by, creates, consists of, etc...basically learn that it is a process!! There are no quick fixes, no short-cuts. There aren't any hard and fast timelines.<P>Everyone's situation involves different circumstances and people with different personalities....therefore things will go slower or faster depending on those circumstances and people.<P>I will say to you right up front - you can talk, reason, demand, wish, want, manipulate, push, pull, cry, stomp, and anything else you can think of all you want - but NOTHING will improve until your wife is ready for it to!!!! <P>YOU have no control over when that is!! So get any ideas of getting through to her by these things alone or putting up a timeline out of your head right now, or you won't make it!!! THEY WON'T WORK and the result will be equivalent to your banging your head against a wall!!<P>What you have heard from her are the same things we ALL have heard from our spouses, etc......We think they have a handbook that they recite from - but we can't prove it yet!!! LOL!!!<P>Does she mean them? Right now she does!! Only because she is wrapped up with the "fantasy" of this wonderful man (and I use the term loosely!!) and can't remember the good stuff with you. Does that mean that she will always mean them? Absolutely NOT!!!! Once you have begun your Plan A and work on getting yourself on the road to improving what you DO have control over - she will see a better future is possible with YOU, this safe, loving, enlightened man that she married.<P>That is where you start - with you!!! Take this time and follow up on NSR's links to learn all you can. Take some time and reflect on what YOU can do to make yourself and any of your contributions to the problems she/you may feel led up to this mess. What can you change? What do you want for your marriage and relationship? <P>When she mentions "2 years ago...." - which event/problem existed then and how can you change it? What do you think she is most trying to escape from? What do you think she needs for you to provide for her?<P>We all fully agree with your statement that once the OM is out of her mind and 'face" with no contact - that is when she will be able to look at you and really see you....that's when she will be open enough to listen to reason and join you in an effort to rebuild. NO QUESTION about it.....problem is that you have to wait until she gets to the point of NO CONTACT!!!!!!!<P>Two words that will help you tremendously - TIME & PATIENCE!!!!<BR>Believe me - you are going to need both of these and before long you will hate hearing them!!! THEY are your friends in this though and detrimental to this process.<P>Do not make the mistake of going into these concepts (Plan A, Plan B, etc) with thinking that they are to "get" her to do or realize something....that is not their purpose!! You do this plans for yourself!!! <P>You need to be a better person which leads to your being a better husband!! Plan A is to create that for yourself and in doing so you create a loving, safe and understanding "haven" for your wife to turn to whenif she needs it. Doesn't guarantee that she will realize she needs it however!!<P>Plan B is for you also. It is implemented when you feel that your love for her is slipping away and you need to separate yourself from her and the pain she inflicts....IT IS A SURVIVAL tool!!<BR>It is not a "let her know what it's like without me" tool.....remember that!!<BR>It is used only after a STRICT and TRUE plan A. It helps YOU to prepare for life without her.<P>OK, I have prattled at you long enough!! LOL!!! I can get pretty long-winded, but I like to be thorough......<P>This does not have to be over....it is just going to take a lot of work!!! On your part initially and then - God willing - on both of your parts when she emerges from her "fog".<P>Keep in the forefront of your mind that her head is full of grandiose ideas..about herself, her happiness, this guy, guilt, justifications, etc.!!<BR>The people seeming to support her with this phooey have their own reasons for doing so - and right or wrong - you cannot change them!!! Just work on being what you feel is right and pretty soon they will all see it too!!<P>Find a separate counselor for your marriage concerns....he/she can probably understand and back you with the legal end of the "incident" and most importantly will actually be of help rather than hinderance to your emotional well-being!! If you can't find a good one - there is always the option of calling Steve Harley and discussing the best route for you in that regard.<P>THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE....we are here for you and care.<P>BIG HUGS, PRAYERS and STRENGTH,<P>Sheba<BR> <P>

Well today I did it. Both me and the wife talked with Steve Harvey, and we both have separate appointments to talk with him this coming Thursday (4/20/00). I just had to thank her for making that first gesture.. I opened the door and she is basically looking inside and I am very happy with that. Tonight, all 3 of us (husband, wife, child) went out for dinner and while the conversation was mainly *wife to child* or *husband to child* we managed to say a few things to each other.. at least she managed to, I could have told her all night long how much I miss her, but I refrained from that. I did compliment her on how she looked, and she said the same to me. I know it will take a long time, I just hope the improvements come faster than court dates.

Hi Neobican,<P>Woohoo, looks like a couple of major steps there. You wouldn't believe the number of people who can't get thier spouse to talk to Steve once, much less agree to try a second round ! Good on both of you !<P>Just remember this journey is mostly made in baby steps, celebrate each one, no matter how tiny. A step is still a step.<P>When my husband left me for ow # 1 hereafter referred to as the wildebeast some 14 years ago, he was very cold and distant to me, we were apart for 1 1/2 years Neobican, that is a long time, but when she was gone I was there for him. Be there when she needs you. Do what you have to do to get yourself togeather. This is never easy for any of us.<P>Take care. Keep us posted, the people here really do care.<BR>I hope for the best for all of you, as you know I am in an awkward position here. I like all involved.<P><P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Steve Harvey has informed my wife of this site, so I must be careful about what I say as it would be possible to read the posts.. I have no wish to hurt or offend her with any posts, I just have to try to express my feelings in a positive way.<P>One of the things that is really distressing me is that she is planning on going back to school, which is great, unforunately she wants to go to school in Davenport which is a 3 hour drive from where we live now! She has even been planning on moving there.. I dont know how to express how uncomfortable I am with that prospect, mainly due to our son. I think this would seriously raise problems and undermine any of my efforts to save our relationship. No custody has even been decided yet.. I must admit that one small fear I have is that if she were to live there away from me, it would be so much easier to be with the other man.. I would not have any way of knowing, even if she says she has no plans to be with him.. I have to admit the thought tears me up. <P>I have asked that we try to find an alternate solution, one that both of us will agree on, but it seems she will not waver at all.. she suggested I move with her, and yes that is a possible solution but one I do not want.. I have suggested trying a school closer to town or in town, why it has to be Davenport I do not know, but I plan to ask. I guess it is because of her plans and my lack of knowledge that this situation can be resolved that I feel we are separating much to fast.. that she wasnt giving it a chance and rushing to get on with her single life, and I felt that maybe she wanted to get away from me so as to spend time with the other guy without feeling guilty.. that she would be *free* so to speak. I am hoping we can resolve this school issue, because I do want her to be happy and succeed, but I dont think I can do it if it costs us the chance to make up.<P>Even though we are separated, and I use that word only in the sense that we are not living at the same dwelling, I still consider us to be married and that we both need to be involved in such major decisions because they affect each of us and especially our son. Is this okay to feel this way or do I sound selfish?

Ok, I am the worlds biggest dope... I had thought the name was Steve Harvey, but it is in fact Steve <B>Harley</B>. My apologies to the family for being thoughtless and not rechecking the correct name.<P>

Neobican:<P>What's the latest? How are things going?<P>In your last post you asked if it was okay to feel the way you did. I think your feelings are fine. I think that it's great that you want to make joint decisions. Just remember your wife might not be at the same point you are.<P>I also think it is very positive that she suggested that you move to Davenport with her. I think that shows there is some room for compromise in your relationship. Is there any way you could make the move? I read somewhere (I can't remember where) about it meaning a lot to someone that their spouse was willing to CONSIDER moving, and when it came down to the wire that person was okay with not going. It was just knowing that s/he (I can't remember which) was important enough to the spouse to consider a move that made all the difference.<P>Good luck--I hope all goes well. --HBC

Well, at this point it is much easier for her to make this move.. I seem to be somewhat *trapped* here with all kinds of responsibilities.. for one I have my house that I inheirited from my parents, I would have to update it before I attempt to sell it, otherwise I would not get the best deal. I also still have an obligation to another house, this one we bought before my mother passed and there is still a hefty mortgage on it.. some friends of mine want the house and I would love for them to have it, but that is up to the lenders.. wether or not they will qualify to assume my loan. Then there are all kinds of other loose ends that I have in abundance.. which are much easier to deal with than the properties.<P>I am happy she wants to go to school.. but yet I fear the move will just drive a wedge into my efforts. I admit its selfish of me to want her to wait until next year.. I worry that because custody is not determined, yet she gained temporary custody, this move will severly limit my time with my son, and then when we do go into court it will seem like he has been living with mom all this time so why break that up? Like I dont even have a chance anymore..<P>I still believe we can work!! She still wants to leave.. Sometimes I think its funny how the betrayed spouse is the one to want to work it out.. I guess you would think it should be the other way around.. meaning the betrayed spouse should want to leave.. but I suppose it goes both ways.. I am trying to keep the hope alive, and I cant help but to tell her I love her even though she cannot say it back. The only real progress there is to report is I am aware of the problem and I am trying to solve it.. if I can manage to get more time with her, (preferably just the two of us but I will settle for anything) I know I can show her and tell her how much I miss her and love her and that we really should make the best effort to keep our marriage together and we can be the couple we should have been.<BR>

My wife has posted on the board (packrat), for her posts look here:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002534.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002534.html</A> <P>Things have gotten worse, she has been lying and decieveing me this whole time.. she had said she did not love other man, and had no plans on continuing the affair, but that is exactly what she is doing and has done since separation. She had a screen name that she did not tell me, and was using that to talk with other man.. she is still constantly online.. when she came over to take me to an appointment, I was not home so she saw on my computer that I had her *secret* name and she deleted it and the other mans name.. I only did so because I suspected she still was carrying on, and she wouldnt tell me the truth. <P>I went over to her place and she was so very angry with me.. screaming at me telling me I am stalking her and harassing her, that she would call the cops and have me arrested, get a restraining order and have my computer seized. I wanted to talk to her face to face to explain.. and I admit I think I did a few love busters, but I spoke calmly and rationally.. she was yelling and screaming for me to leave. It was then that I found out she admits to being in love with him.. she met him just last weekend for a second encounter.. she said she will continue on seeing him and has no plans to end the affair. It was my time with our son, (as provided by the court) so when I was going to leave with him, she blocked me and actually forcibly tried to pull him from me! It was literally a tug of war with our son in the middle.. she was in hysterics. I did not give him up so she called for officers, she told the story but when it looked like the officers were going to make me leave without our son, I reminded my wife that if she did that she would be in comtempt of court. I still love her but I cannot allow her to just *walk all over me* using our son to do it. I wanted to keep her out of jail, but if she refused I would have followed through with that action. She calmed down and wisely let me leave with our son.<P>An hour later she called and admitted she was hysterical, and she should not have acted that way.. I asked her to at least just tell me the truth.. even through the affair.. just be honest. Decieveing me is worse, we would both benefit from the truth no matter how much it might hurt.. <P>Honestly, I would rather she tell me that she has been with him or is planning on seeing him than to lie to me and do so. <P>So things have calmed down.. I feel better knowing more truths, at least I know where I stand and what I am up against. I ask that fellow posters to please refrain from chastizing my wife, instead just to encourage her to post more often.. We all know that she does not want to listen to us, does not want to accept responsibility, and does not want to save the marriage... we cannot change that, only she can, and I will be waiting for her when she does. <P>Packrat - I still love you.<P>Thank you all for your support.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Neobican (edited April 26, 2000).]

Ohh Goodness. Reading your story it is like a worse case scenario of mine. The good news. We are still together. He loves me. We are talking of children, planning a house together, not looking back. The OW is a memory. For a little hope...He said all the things she is saying to you to me early on while the affair was going on. I too read it in his emails. Walked in on him and her having phone sex. All the horrible things they hoped we'd forget when they told us it was nothing, a fantasy, just friends. He told me he was repulsed by me. That he had been unhappy for several years. It had nothing to do with her. That he would not give her up. He met her on an online game. He too wondered why I couldn't let go. It was best for both of us. I'd be just as miserable as him. The thing was I wasn't keeping him. There was no way I could.<P>I can't guarentee that things will work out the way they did with us. But the possibility is there. Gosh it took patience. It took strength when I didn't think I had any. It took staring down bottles of pills, fighting the urge for release and telling myself that I was better than this, I could make it through this. It took support. It took prayer.<P>I did go for counseling. I've always looked at therapy like going for private tutoring for a class. I do do most of the work. The therapist is just a sounding board for my ideas and a questioner to suggest others. He offers other perspectives I don't see at the moment. I prefer to increase my options. Besides he has years of experience witnessing lots of patients who have been through similar circumstances and gotten their ideas as to how to handle it. I'm going through it for the first time. I'd like to know about that experience. I paid him for that experience. I don't look at it as being sick. I look at it as paying for research. I'm a student.<P>Anyway, hang in there. Life will get better one way or another. You will be ok. Hugs...