I know I will probably get flayed alive over this, but I truly am puzzled by some of the posts I have read in this forum. So many people are hurt and in pain; both betrayers and the betrayed...though there seems to be a lot more betrayed speaking up. The whole issue of one's spouse cheating is painful; I am sure everyone agrees. Yet, some of the posts scream bitterness and anger...again normal, but for some they have been on this rollercoaster for months...some longer. Why? Why would you want someone back who has repeatedly lied to you and claims to love another? I am sure there are some cases where people work it out, but that is only because both of them want to. It appears that in so many cases, the betrayer has already emotionally left the marriage and the betrayed is still operating as if they will come back. I know we take vows, but when is it committment and when is just plain abuse. <P>I just hate to see so many people stuck in neutral. I can't help but look at my own situation. The marriage was in trouble for years. I continually told my spouse, continually wanted him to go for counseling, and he refused. I am the betrayer here, so when my H found out about the EA, he was surprised. He told me he was perfectly happy and had no idea. How could he not have any idea when I told him? I realize, my H's behaviour is most likely different then most here, but he still insists that our problems are because of the EA, because I need anti-depressants, because of the marriage counselor...never is it because of what I feel are the true issues. And there are lots of other issues that have nothing to do with infidelity.<P>I quess the question I have is, if your spouse came back would that really make you happy? Nothing could ever be the same...it isn't the same. I hear so much anger...calling the OP horrible names. I wonder, why isn't this person blaming their H too. It takes two to have an affair...one is as bad as the other. I have a tendency to be an optomist and believe that happiness has to come from within. I don't know how you get it when you are reeling with so much pain, but at some point don't you just have to say to yourself, "I respect myself and am not going to set myself up anymore for this pain?" I admire all of those out there who are dealing with withdrawling spouses. If that isn't love, then I don't know what is. I truly wish things turn out in the positive, but if they don't I hope you don't sacrifice your life for it. You deserve better.

Lonelysoul,<P>It's a good question and there's no reason anyone should get angry over you asking it. You worded it in a way that it will not be taken as a personal attack.<P>It's also a question that I've thought long and hard about. At this point I can't see myself being completely happy without my H but I know I wouldn't be completely happy if he came back. Of course, my situation is somewhat different than most. I think what bothers me most is that he had to wait until he "found" someone else before he had the courage to leave. In my book that makes him less of a man. He now says he wanted out for 2 years, so why didn't he leave then?? Because he's the type that can't take care of himself. He needs someone to be able to feel complete. There are some things that he just either doesn't know how to do or doesn't want to do. (Finances, housework,etc..). <P>But I do see a lot of people here who could make their marriages work. It just takes time and a lot of patience. <P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

Speaking for myself. I was/am not dealing with an OW presently. It happened before we were married, but we married having unresolved issues. Basically the marriage was a band-aid to cover up the sore that was there and it was never dealt with. The band aid came off after the I Do's turning into an infection from not taking care of it. So I am dealing with letting go of the past. I don't know what I am dealing with now. You ask what would make me happy. To have a happy marriage, what else. But if that isn't possible I am well aware of the need to let go and get out, if I don't feel that I am strong enough and may backslide then I will have my own life with others until I can wean myself off of H. Like you said life is too short to wait until someone decides to fly right.

Lonelysoul,<P>I think you missed the point of the MB concepts and why people are here. First, most come to realize that while their spouse is having an affair there can be no progress. However, most affairs end without the WS marrying the OP. In fact frequently once the affair ends there is the possibility of rebuilding the marriage. <P>If you read here for awhile what you will find from the success stories is that the rebuilt marriage is often much better than the original marriage. So there is hope. <P>The numbers are in favor of the patient betrayed spouse: 95% of affairs end and roughly 3% of marriage created by affairs succeed. So is the pain worth it? That is up to the individual, but marriages can be put back together and made better with time and work. <P>And yes commitment is a key issue for most. The marriage vows are very specific on the commitment issue. The reason is very simple. There are many "right" people or "soulmates" out there for people. If that is the criterion for judging a marriage as people age and mature, then no marriages would succeed. What makes marriages succeed is the commitment of one or both of the partners. That commitment is the key issue.<P>The people you find here are committed to do their best to rebuild their marriages. If they weren't they would not be here. This is also true of betrayers. If there wasn't vestiges of love and commitment left in their heart, why would they be posting here?<P>The answer is simple even if they don't want to admit it. They do want the marriage to work and they do feel the weight of the commitment they made and broke. <P> Finally, many come to realize that it is possible to rebuild a marriage and not be a minority partner although they had the affair. <P>For an example look at Mercy's posts. There have been many others. <P>So it seems to me while your question is reasonable the answer lies in the data and the reality that humans can overcome tremendous pain to achieve their goals. <P>You can do that to.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

LS<BR>I would never want things to be the same as they were before H's affair. Immediately after discovery, I chose to take the crisis as an opportunity to finally start working together on our marriage. None of it was easy.<P>There were several reasons why I didn't give up.<BR>1. My H and I had been married 18 years at the time. I couldn't justify giving up on that many years for any amount of time with a dirty little bimbo.<P>2. I was stubborn. If we were going to get a divorce, it would be because of problems in our marriage. Not because of an extra passenger in our marriage.<P>3. I knew that the bimbo was using my H and I refused to let him self destruct and destroy my children without giving it everything I had.<P>There are many more reasons. Bottom line here is that now that the smoke has cleared, my H has said that if I had done anything differently, we would both be alone.<BR>He sees things about the bimbo now that I saw on first sight - long before the affair. <BR>Yes she disgusts me. She disgusted me years before she slept with my H. <P>There are many people here who know that a marriage can improve after an affair. Kat, Almost Happy, Laurie C, HG Brawner, K, ....I could go on and on. I would guess that most of those people would not want to go back to the way it was before infidelity struck. I certainly wouldn't.<P>Our marriage was not great. Both of us contributed to that in many ways. The difference now is that my H has bothered to take responsibility for his part in the marriage and the affair. He no longer justifies his actions. He realizes that he had a lot more here than he would admit to. He just took it for granted.<P>The pain I felt would not have instantly disappeared if I had given up and left my H. The pain would still be there but I would not have given it my best shot. I don't think that would have made me feel very good about myself. Nothing good is achieved without hard work.

Hi LS,<P> Did you see the Oprah show last week on H"s having an affair.? You are asking the same questions that Oprah asked, basically "don't you have any respect for yourself to want him back ?"....etc. Believe me in the past I felt that I would not tolerate my H having an affair and would be out of there in the name of self respect.<P> Then, when it happened and I found this site and after reading about the basic dynamics of an affair I realized I wanted to stay in there. My H in the past was wonderful, became awful during the affair and afterwards but now, I'm happy to say is back to wonderful......it is truly like he was in a fog and temporarily insane.....I chose to stick it out because of the past (23yrs) and because of 4 kids who wanted an intact family. The more you learn about affairs and the behaviors, the better you are able to make rational ,patient decisions...however they seem to go against society's stance of "maintain your self respect at all costs"......LU

Well I'm going to take the vantage point of one who has been hurt by many people in my life, not only my husband and see if I can't shed some light on it. Some will argue that living in dysfunction sets you up for a certain role, and I can agree with it to a certain degree, but I also am well informed about what all those roles might be, and realize that there is an upside as well as a downside to the choices we make. <P>Have I lost self-respect by taking my husband back? No, because I define myself by a certain set of actions one of which is a caring and forgiving nature. I wouldn't have had respect for myself by not giving him another chance. Now the downside to that is that by being caring, forgiving, and open enough to realize we all make mistakes I open myself up to the personality that would say hey I got away with it, and do it again. There's a plus and a negative to who we are.<P>But I want to be that forgiving person. I like the up enough that I'm willing to risk the down. I don't like the down side of the one who would say you hurt me, I want nothing to do with you. I may protect myself from future hurt, but I'm also going to close myself off and isolate myself from potential joy with that person. Too many of us hurt unintentionally. If we walked away from all of them we'd be pretty lonely people. <P>I understand what you are saying. There is a point (which I have admittedly crossed in my life) where your self-esteem can become so wrapped up in another's that they will continually hurt you, not give anything back in return, and you will let them because you are so afraid to lose what little human connection you've got. You're afraid you're not good enough for anything better. That's where outside support is really essential. You need someone to say, are you taking a risk with this person again because you really feel that they deserve that second chance, or are you doing it because that type of behavior is all you can expect out of life?

beth28...I so understand about what you said about getting hurt. I put up with emotional and verbal abuse just like a spouse of a chronic cheater. Every time it happened, I thought it would be the last time and we would talk and I would think things would be better. A month later we would be back to square one. After awhile I was numb to it. After awhile I got involved in an EA. The EA was not good, but in gave me the push I needed to clearly look at my own life. I don't have the OM anymore, I never will, but I also know that I don't have to settle on being treated as badly as I was. This pain will go away. I did love my H, but now I just want to get away from all the pain he has caused me